9089 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

Lazengan wrote...

Destroy is potential Genocide, but is usually the best choice in my opinion, perhaps we can rebuild EDI and the Geth with all the dead reaper bodies lying around

Destroy advocates keep saying that, but I believe ME2 and ME3 made it very very very clear that you can't.

If you would rebuild EDI, it would not be EDI, it would be someone else. If you chose Destroy, than like it or not, but EDI is death and she won't come back, ever.

So yeah, deal with it, EDI is not going to come back, she can't be rebuild.

Same with the geth. You can rebuild them, but the'll never be the same. They'll be a completely  new race with new processes and different consencuses.

Lazengan wrote...

Control ... Shepard becomes a God, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm interesting

Indeed. It's my favorite choice. I believe it's also the best choice you can make. No genocide needed and you have an entire reaper force at your disposal, ready to be used to rebuild the entire galaxy and more.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:06 .

[Enthalpy]

Troxa wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Troxa wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

How is synthesis "submission"?

because every one seemed to get along, the war would have continued if it wasn't. It would never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going on.  (too much bad blood)

Or maybe, just maybe, people realised that trying to kill nonchalant, even benevolent or repentant Reapers, would be a really really bad idea.

And you think that would stop them there is just too much bad blood

Prior to the EC, no, I was fully aware of the fact that my Synthesis Shepard may have just unleashed a horde of insane and insanely powerful spaceships on the galaxy. However, the act of obliterating all synthetics or taking their free wills was morally impermissible to Shepard.

Naturally, I am relieved after the EC.

[Welsh Inferno]

Arcian wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis ending has REALLLY dark undertones

>Peace between organics and synthetics
>Unhindered pan-galactic understanding
>Reapers are freed from enslavement after +1 billion years of having no free will
>Potential immortality
>Free knowledge for everyone
>"Lol really dark undertones"
Typical meatbag sentiments.

Those are horrible! zomg kill me now! 

Immortality is something though, not everyone does want to live forever. Which I can understand.

[Xamufam]

Enthalpy wrote...

Synthesis was never about firepower or efficiency; in case you haven't read the OP, please do read it. Synthesis isn't even about who's "superior," in whatever arbitrary scale we choose. It is about eliminating the basis of the Reapers' need to continue the cycles.

It can't really stop history from repeating itself, life is a soup
There will allways be organics & syntetics so the reapers can't stop harvesting life

[Welsh Inferno]

Arcian wrote...

Well even with effective immortality, they don't really have to live forever. Those who wish to die can do so by "pulling the plug", so to speak. I think many will during the course of a Synthesis future, but only when they believe they have lived full lives. Synthesis immortality allows them to achieve all they wish before voluntarily leaving the world. So it's not all bad.

Agreed. People could also enter cryostasis for a few years if they "need a break" so to speak. After living for a while I could see myself doing that for a year or more.

[Xamufam]

Enthalpy wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Troxa wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

How is synthesis "submission"?

because every one seemed to get along, the war would have continued if it wasn't. It would never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going on.  (too much bad blood)

Or maybe, just maybe, people realised that trying to kill nonchalant, even benevolent or repentant Reapers, would be a really really bad idea.

And you think that would stop them there is just too much bad blood

Prior to the EC, no, I was fully aware of the fact that my Synthesis Shepard may have just unleashed a horde of insane and insanely powerful spaceships on the galaxy. However, the act of obliterating all synthetics or taking their free wills was morally impermissible to Shepard.

Naturally, I am relieved after the EC.

So you prefer to take away the free will of the organics
(in controll you only take the reapers not the geth or edi)

Modifié par Troxa, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:25 .

[SpectreVeldt]

Arcian wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis ending has REALLLY dark undertones

>Peace between organics and synthetics
>Unhindered pan-galactic understanding
>Reapers are freed from enslavement after +1 billion years of having no free will
>Potential immortality
>Free knowledge for everyone
>"Lol really dark undertones"
Typical meatbag sentiments.

There are potential drawbacks to your points.  You could also apply many of those statements (Reapers and immortality notwithstanding) to the end of Orwell's 1984.  And honestly, when I saw "typical meatbag sentiments," I thought you were referring to (what ended up being) your own points as well.  The idea or view of a perfect and peaceful world is a very 'meatbag' sentiment.

[AngryFrozenWater]

@saracen16: I like to take the time to answer your long post. I haven't forgotten it. Things like dinner and such are slowing it down.

[saracen16]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

@saracen16: I like to take the time to answer your long post. I haven't forgotten it. Things like dinner and such are slowing it down.

No worries. I'm enjoying the debate and looking forward to your reply.

[Lazengan]

Arcian wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis ending has REALLLY dark undertones

>Peace between organics and synthetics
>Unhindered pan-galactic understanding
>Reapers are freed from enslavement after +1 billion years of having no free will
>Potential immortality
>Free knowledge for everyone
>"Lol really dark undertones"
Typical meatbag sentiments.

halt of all organic evolution
invariable, artificial "peace" across the galaxy
no more concept of individuality as there is a communal "understanding" of each other
no more reason for social conflict, sociocultural evolution halts
no more drive for knowledge or power, technological advancement leads to a standstill


Futility of living in a world with no disorder or change

possibly: Continued use of mass effect relays and now with giant reapers "living" everywhere, and now with no form of population control due to galaxy wide peace, can cause to a build up in dark matter energies (the original plot for mass effect 3) which leads to the heat death of the universe

Modifié par Lazengan, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:33 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Lazengan wrote...

build up in dark matter energies (the original plot for mass effect 3) which leads to the heat death of the universe

Where does this "original plot for Mass Effect 3) myth come from? I've heard plenty of people talking about this, but it seems nothing more than a huge myth. I've read the leaked files back in 2011 and there was nothing about dark energy whatsoever.

[Lazengan]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

build up in dark matter energies (the original plot for mass effect 3) which leads to the heat death of the universe

Where does this "original plot for Mass Effect 3) myth come from? I've heard plenty of people talking about this, but it seems nothing more than a huge myth. I've read the leaked files back in 2011 and there was nothing about dark energy whatsoever.

mass effect 1 kept hinting on about it in the codex's
Mass effect 2 Had Tali's Recruitment mission focused on her and a science team studying the dark matter energies of Haestorm's sun.

A leaked script was released somewhere, and with Bioware's COMPLETE silence regarding dark matter, we can assume it was the original ending until changed

The ending would have been too similar to Gurren Lagann

[Welsh Inferno]

Lazengan wrote...

halt of all organic evolution
invariable, artificial "peace" across the galaxy
no more concept of individuality as there is a communal "understanding" of each other
no more reason for social conflict, sociocultural evolution halts
no more drive for knowledge or power, technological advancement leads to a standstill


Futility of living in a world with no disorder or change

possibly: Continued use of mass effect relays and now with giant reapers "living" everywhere, and now with no form of population control due to galaxy wide peace, can cause to a build up in dark matter energies (the original plot for mass effect 3) which leads to the heat death of the universe

Its funny cause the ending says none of that. Infact it says the opposite of a few. But do carry on. 

[Ieldra]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis ending has REALLLY dark undertones

>Peace between organics and synthetics
>Unhindered pan-galactic understanding
>Reapers are freed from enslavement after +1 billion years of having no free will
>Potential immortality
>Free knowledge for everyone
>"Lol really dark undertones"
Typical meatbag sentiments.

Those are horrible! zomg kill me now! 

Yeah, and only because of the sentiment "I didn't ask for this". It's incomprehensible.

Immortality is something though, not everyone does want to live forever. Which I can understand.

I've always assumed this is relative immortality, i.e. you don't die from natural causes, but can skill be killed, or choose to die. Making someone impossible to kill would be quite a feat. I think the practical problems re:overpopulation are a much greater concern. That's why it's good that it's a possibility for the far future and people have time to adapt to the idea. If that was suddenly thrust on the whole galaxy the darker scenarios would be more believable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:42 .

[Ieldra]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

build up in dark matter energies (the original plot for mass effect 3) which leads to the heat death of the universe

Where does this "original plot for Mass Effect 3) myth come from? I've heard plenty of people talking about this, but it seems nothing more than a huge myth. I've read the leaked files back in 2011 and there was nothing about dark energy whatsoever.

It was scrapped early, probably during the development of ME2. There is nothing about that left in any of the leaked ME3 scripts, not even the very early one. The concept of the ME3 ending was always somewhat akin to what we have now.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 juillet 2012 - 05:46 .

[Lazengan]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

halt of all organic evolution
invariable, artificial "peace" across the galaxy
no more concept of individuality as there is a communal "understanding" of each other
no more reason for social conflict, sociocultural evolution halts
no more drive for knowledge or power, technological advancement leads to a standstill


Futility of living in a world with no disorder or change

possibly: Continued use of mass effect relays and now with giant reapers "living" everywhere, and now with no form of population control due to galaxy wide peace, can cause to a build up in dark matter energies (the original plot for mass effect 3) which leads to the heat death of the universe

Its funny cause the ending says none of that. Infact it says the opposite of a few. But do carry on. 

synthesis is apparently "the final goal of evolution" according to the catalyst

and with all the knowledge and technology from the reapers, we pretty much live in a peaceful utopia. Without Order nothing exists, but without chaos nothing can evolve. There is really no point in continued existence anymore without any form of progress.



...

[JamieCOTC]

Lazengan wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis ending has REALLLY dark undertones

>Peace between organics and synthetics
>Unhindered pan-galactic understanding
>Reapers are freed from enslavement after +1 billion years of having no free will
>Potential immortality
>Free knowledge for everyone
>"Lol really dark undertones"
Typical meatbag sentiments.

halt of all organic evolution

I don't care what the Catalyst says, this is just flat out wrong. As long as space and time exist, as long as some form of life exists, organic evolution cannot and will not end. The ending is so poorly written it's almost pointless to debate it. 

Also, I don't know why they changed it, but in an earlier draft of the script, the Catalyst tells Shepard that organics will be transformed to be more like him or her. In this version, Shepard is the blueprint for synthesis. In other words, they will be partly synthetic, but will still retain their individuality. Yes, that still leaves the moral dilemma of imposing a radical change upon the galaxy, but all the choices do that to some extent.

[Enthalpy]

Troxa wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Prior to the EC, no, I was fully aware of the fact that my Synthesis Shepard may have just unleashed a horde of insane and insanely powerful spaceships on the galaxy. However, the act of obliterating all synthetics or taking their free wills was morally impermissible to Shepard.

Naturally, I am relieved after the EC.

So you prefer to take away the free will of the organics
(in controll you only take the reapers not the geth or edi)

(Sigh) I swear this is the last time I say this. Synthesis is not shown as having taken away free will. 

I thought the EC slides showed a picture of blue-glowing geth alongside Reapers, and no EDI, after Control. Doesn't that indicate Shepard controlled them now?

[The Heretic of Time]

Lazengan wrote...

A leaked script was released somewhere, and with Bioware's COMPLETE silence regarding dark matter, we can assume it was the original ending until changed

This is not true. I've read everything that was leaked and nothing, NOTHING said anything about dark matter/energy.

Lazengan wrote...

The ending would have been too similar to Gurren Lagann

Yeah, and the current ending is too similar to Deus Ex 1. 

[Lazengan]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis ending has REALLLY dark undertones

>Peace between organics and synthetics
>Unhindered pan-galactic understanding
>Reapers are freed from enslavement after +1 billion years of having no free will
>Potential immortality
>Free knowledge for everyone
>"Lol really dark undertones"
Typical meatbag sentiments.

halt of all organic evolution

I don't care what the Catalyst says, this is just flat out wrong. As long as space and time exist, as long as some form of life exists, organic evolution cannot and will not end. The ending is so poorly written it's almost pointless to debate it. 

Also, I don't know why they changed it, but in an earlier draft of the script, the Catalyst tells Shepard that organics will be transformed to be more like him or her. In this version, Shepard is the blueprint for synthesis. In other words, they will be partly synthetic, but will still retain their individuality. Yes, that still leaves the moral dilemma of imposing a radical change upon the galaxy, but all the choices do that to some extent.

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

[Chashan]

Arcian wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis ending has REALLLY dark undertones

>Peace between organics and synthetics
>Unhindered pan-galactic understanding
>Reapers are freed from enslavement after +1 billion years of having no free will
>Potential immortality
>Free knowledge for everyone
>"Lol really dark undertones"
Typical meatbag sentiments.

The one dark undertone which is all that is needed for me to pass on the Utopia-button is the following question I already voiced in this thread:

In this scenario, there would be one reasonably debatable question: Do the Reapers' means justify their benevolent intentions? Does their working towards a galaxy-spanning utopia truly redeem their eons of commiting genocide?

Which I have to answer with a clear No.
The Reapers are not getting away with their Utopia-building at any cost. Utopia, the Kingdom of God, civitas dei is something to be earned once the divinity, or fatum sees fit to make it happen. And no, I do not ascribe these erratic killing machines a divine nature, far from it.
Ending them was the deal made with the peoples of the galaxy prior to bringing down the Hammer. Not a twisted compromise.

As for


>Potential immortality

I once read some satirical novel from the 1970s whose name I can't recall - "10 stories about the world", "A short history of the world" or something - where the "every-day life" in Heaven/the afterlife was described. It ends with the narrator "going to sleep" out of pure boredom, thus dying. And waking up again, as in the beginning of that particular story.
Minus the "waking up" part, I imagine that would be an example of how people would cope with this utopic life-expectancy once they "tire" of it.

Modifié par Chashan, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:00 .

[Xamufam]

Enthalpy wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Prior to the EC, no, I was fully aware of the fact that my Synthesis Shepard may have just unleashed a horde of insane and insanely powerful spaceships on the galaxy. However, the act of obliterating all synthetics or taking their free wills was morally impermissible to Shepard.

Naturally, I am relieved after the EC.

So you prefer to take away the free will of the organics
(in controll you only take the reapers not the geth or edi)

(Sigh) I swear this is the last time I say this. Synthesis is not shown as having taken away free will. 

I thought the EC slides showed a picture of blue-glowing geth alongside Reapers, and no EDI, after Control. Doesn't that indicate Shepard controlled them now?

you control what the catalyst controlled the reapers
the geth have different collors i can see red, blue & white on the head

Modifié par Troxa, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:03 .

[Lazengan]

Enthalpy wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Prior to the EC, no, I was fully aware of the fact that my Synthesis Shepard may have just unleashed a horde of insane and insanely powerful spaceships on the galaxy. However, the act of obliterating all synthetics or taking their free wills was morally impermissible to Shepard.

Naturally, I am relieved after the EC.

So you prefer to take away the free will of the organics
(in controll you only take the reapers not the geth or edi)

(Sigh) I swear this is the last time I say this. Synthesis is not shown as having taken away free will. 

I thought the EC slides showed a picture of blue-glowing geth alongside Reapers, and no EDI, after Control. Doesn't that indicate Shepard controlled them now?

synthesis takes away a form of your free will. It removes your spirituality, your individuality, and living in a Utopia will degress people to become content and have absolutely no desire for power or advancement, no more drive for evolution