9089 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

Lazengan wrote...

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

New organic life will be created and evolve eventually, that is inevitable, it can't be stopped, it's just a part of mother nature. And what happens when the new organic life reaches the starts and joins our ranks? Than we have new organic life versus a super galactic cyborg empire.

The Catalyst is a ******. He doesn't see the whole organic v.s synthetic problem lies with the synthetics, not the organics. To solve this problem, we need to stop synthetic evolution, not organic evolution.

[JamieCOTC]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

A leaked script was released somewhere, and with Bioware's COMPLETE silence regarding dark matter, we can assume it was the original ending until changed

This is not true. I've read everything that was leaked and nothing, NOTHING said anything about dark matter/energy.

Lazengan wrote...

The ending would have been too similar to Gurren Lagann

Yeah, and the current ending is too similar to Deus Ex 1. 

Yes it is.  Drew Karpyshyn said as much on his twitter feed. The script you and most others read was a later draft. 

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yeah, and only because of the sentiment "I didn't ask for this". It's incomprehensible.

That’s exactly why it’s reprehensible. The outcome doesn’t matter. Are you seriously arguing this:

Premise: you must make a choice whether to apply a change with unknown (unknowable, by your own admission) on everybody.

Outcome A: it’s somehow positive. Your decision was therefore morally right.
Outcome B: it’s somehow negative. Your decision was therefore morally wrong.

It doesn’t work like that.

…

Let me provide you with an analogous question:

You enter a room. There is a one-way mirror to a second room with 5 people (kidnapped, they did not volunteer). There is a box with a button, and two lights, red and green.

You are given two options: either press the button, or exit the room.

If you exit the room, nothing happens. The people are free to leave. They might get run over by a car the next week, but they can go now.

If you press the button, there is a 80% chance that you get the green light. This means each person is given 5 million dollars and let go. There is a 20% chance that you get the red light. This means the people are shot.

Is it morally just to press the button in the hopes that you hit the 80%?

Modifié par lillitheris, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:19 .

[Welsh Inferno]

Lazengan wrote...

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

Its not my fault BW wrote that badly. Like JamiCOTC said, its not the final end goal.  That screams stagnation yet what we are shown and told is the opposite. 
The new ending shows and says that life certainly does not stagnate. We continue to surpass everything.  I'd rather believe what I was shown. Not what some badly written all of a sudden important character tells me.

[The Heretic of Time]

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis takes away a form of your free will. It removes your spirituality, your individuality, and living in a Utopia will degress people to become content and have absolutely no desire for power or advancement, no more drive for evolution

If you played Deus Ex 2 you know this isn't true.

JC Denton also tries to uplift humanity with synthesis in Deus Ex 2 and for good reasons. Here is his explanation for synthesis, which makes a lot more sense than the nonsensical mumbo-jumbo from the Catalyst:

http://www.youtube.c...reJr4Yc#t=0m41s

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:06 .

[Lazengan]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis takes away a form of your free will. It removes your spirituality, your individuality, and living in a Utopia will degress people to become content and have absolutely no desire for power or advancement, no more drive for evolution

If you played Deus Ex 2 you know this isn't true.

JC Denton also tries to uplift humanity with synthesis in Deus Ex 2 and for good reasons. Here is his explanation for synthesis, which makes a lot more sense than the nonsensical mumbo-jumbo from the Catalyst:

http://www.youtube.c...reJr4Yc#t=0m41s

organic evolution is not something that can be created, modified, or altered

Integrating synthetic life into organic life is against the very thing that organic evolution seeks to attain for

[Welsh Inferno]

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yeah, and only because of the sentiment "I didn't ask for this". It's incomprehensible.

That’s exactly why it’s reprehensible. The outcome doesn’t matter. Are you seriously arguing this:

Premise: you must make a choice whether to apply a change with unknown (unknowable, by your own admission) on everybody.

Outcome A: it’s somehow positive. Your decision was therefore morally right.
Outcome B: it’s somehow negative. Your decision was therefore morally wrong.

It doesn’t work like that.

I think Ieldra just sees it as an "Ends justifies the means" sorta way. I certainly recognise that morally, forcing something on everyone and thing in the galaxy is wrong. But all the endings are morally wrong, so it pretty much nullifies that consequence for me.

[lillitheris]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

I think Ieldra just sees it as an "Ends justifies the means" sorta way. I certainly recognise that morally, forcing something on everyone and thing in the galaxy is wrong. But all the endings are morally wrong, so it pretty much nullifies that consequence for me.

I could — could — be swayed by ends justifying means. The problem here is that the ends are unknown.

I added an analogy above, perhaps it clarifies the issue for some.

[JamieCOTC]

Lazengan wrote...

*snip*

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

The Catalyst is wrong and so is the writer who put those idiotic words into his mouth. EDI in fact corrects this mistake in the epilogue "to reach a level of existance I cannot even imagine."  That's called evolution. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:12 .

[The Heretic of Time]

Lazengan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis takes away a form of your free will. It removes your spirituality, your individuality, and living in a Utopia will degress people to become content and have absolutely no desire for power or advancement, no more drive for evolution

If you played Deus Ex 2 you know this isn't true.

JC Denton also tries to uplift humanity with synthesis in Deus Ex 2 and for good reasons. Here is his explanation for synthesis, which makes a lot more sense than the nonsensical mumbo-jumbo from the Catalyst:

http://www.youtube.c...reJr4Yc#t=0m41s

organic evolution is not something that can be created, modified, or altered

Integrating synthetic life into organic life is against the very thing that organic evolution seeks to attain for

Organic evolution i something that can easily be created, modified or altered. In fact, we do it all the time, even in modern-day real-life.

You talk as if evolution has a purpose, as if has a goal. This is not true. The creation of organic life is nothing but an accident and evolution isn't much more than simply a string of cause and effect, random mutation versus natural selection.
Evolution is not limited to organics either. There is nothing special about organic evolution. Synthetics can also evolve in the same way organics do.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:16 .

[Welsh Inferno]

lillitheris wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...

I think Ieldra just sees it as an "Ends justifies the means" sorta way. I certainly recognise that morally, forcing something on everyone and thing in the galaxy is wrong. But all the endings are morally wrong, so it pretty much nullifies that consequence for me.

I could — could — be swayed by ends justifying means. The problem here is that the ends are unknown.

I added an analogy above, perhaps it clarifies the issue for some.

Read it. Without their consent it is morally wrong yes. I understand the analogy, but you won't ever see me arguing that the means to achieving Synthesis are morally right.

Modifié par Welsh Inferno, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:17 .

[Ieldra]

Lazengan wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis ending has REALLLY dark undertones

>Peace between organics and synthetics
>Unhindered pan-galactic understanding
>Reapers are freed from enslavement after +1 billion years of having no free will
>Potential immortality
>Free knowledge for everyone
>"Lol really dark undertones"
Typical meatbag sentiments.

halt of all organic evolution

I don't care what the Catalyst says, this is just flat out wrong. As long as space and time exist, as long as some form of life exists, organic evolution cannot and will not end. The ending is so poorly written it's almost pointless to debate it. 

Also, I don't know why they changed it, but in an earlier draft of the script, the Catalyst tells Shepard that organics will be transformed to be more like him or her. In this version, Shepard is the blueprint for synthesis. In other words, they will be partly synthetic, but will still retain their individuality. Yes, that still leaves the moral dilemma of imposing a radical change upon the galaxy, but all the choices do that to some extent.

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

Yeah....*natural* evolution of *sapient* life. It's likely that post-Synthesis civilization will take control of its own evolution, ending the dance of random chance and selection for those integrated with technology. However, it is impossible that natural evolution is ended for all life. Evolution, in general, is a way for complexity to arise from simplicity. Life arises naturally from non-life, and more complex forms arise naturally from simpler ones, continuing until more complexity isn't conducive for surival anymore. If someone suddenly made all life unchanging, non-sapient life forms would just die out and be replaced by adaptable life. As long as you don't change fundamental laws of physics, that won't change.

So, it doesn't matter which biochemical change the Synthesis makes, non-sapient life forms will still react to to environmental stress factors and adapt. BTW, evolution has no goal.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

This assumption is canonical false: 

EDI:
"As the line between synthetic and organic disappears, we may transcend mortality itself to reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine."
"And we will remember that this chance for a new life did not come without cost."
"No matter how far we advance, we will remember the sacrifices of those who made it possible".

That sounds like the exact opposite of stagnation to me. I've said it before. There may be utopian undertones in the Synthesis ending, but the main theme is ascension, not utopia.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:18 .

[JamieCOTC]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

Its not my fault BW wrote that badly. Like JamiCOTC said, its not the final end goal.  That screams stagnation yet what we are shown and told is the opposite. 
The new ending shows and says that life certainly does not stagnate. We continue to surpass everything.  I'd rather believe what I was shown. Not what some badly written all of a sudden important character tells me.

Thank you.  And as any writer worth his or her salt knows, it is better to show than to tell.

[Lazengan]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

*snip*

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

The Catalyst is wrong and so is the writer who put those idiotic words into his mouth. EDI in fact corrects this mistake in the epilogue "to reach a level of existance I cannot even imagine."  That's called evolution. 

the Catalyst believes in one path that all organics and synthetics should follow

choosing synthesis closes off all other paths, which is an affront to everything evolution stands for

Evolution is about choices, free will, mistakes, chaos and the order that rises from the solved conflicts. Evolution is not teological as the catalyst believes, but has an infinite amount of pathways to follow.

I support a future of free will and the chaos of uncertainty, not forced down a certain path. Legion would agree with me, and he would choose destroy even if it meant his people's sacrifice. Better to die a free sapient being, than a thrall of the catalyst

[SpectreVeldt]

Welsh Inferno wrote...
I think Ieldra just sees it as an "Ends justifies the means" sorta way. I certainly recognise that morally, forcing something on everyone and thing in the galaxy is wrong. But all the endings are morally wrong, so it pretty much nullifies that consequence for me.

Good God!  Thank you!  Everyone is arguing over their own personal set of moral beliefs, which is their own way of answering that very question (if this particular end justifies the means), but not really presenting all systematic components.  The next step, then, is to fully understand and analyze the Synthesis End, and ask questions like: What do we gain from a lack of understanding?  One Example.  ME3 Example.  Etc.

Modifié par SpectreVeldt, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:21 .

[saracen16]

Lazengan wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Prior to the EC, no, I was fully aware of the fact that my Synthesis Shepard may have just unleashed a horde of insane and insanely powerful spaceships on the galaxy. However, the act of obliterating all synthetics or taking their free wills was morally impermissible to Shepard.

Naturally, I am relieved after the EC.

So you prefer to take away the free will of the organics
(in controll you only take the reapers not the geth or edi)

(Sigh) I swear this is the last time I say this. Synthesis is not shown as having taken away free will. 

I thought the EC slides showed a picture of blue-glowing geth alongside Reapers, and no EDI, after Control. Doesn't that indicate Shepard controlled them now?

synthesis takes away a form of your free will. It removes your spirituality, your individuality, and living in a Utopia will degress people to become content and have absolutely no desire for power or advancement, no more drive for evolution

All it does is alter the matrix of life and improves upon it. Otherwise, it does not in any shape or form take away one's individuality.

If it did, then why is the krogan city that is built in the ending... krogan?

[lillitheris]

SpectreVeldt wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...
I think Ieldra just sees it as an "Ends justifies the means" sorta way. I certainly recognise that morally, forcing something on everyone and thing in the galaxy is wrong. But all the endings are morally wrong, so it pretty much nullifies that consequence for me.

Good God!  Thank you!  Everyone is arguing over their own personal set of moral beliefs, which is their own way of answering that very question (if this particular end justifies the means), but not really presenting all systematic components.  The next step, then, is to fully understand and analyze the Synthesis End, and ask questions like: What do we gain from a lack of understanding?  One Example.  Etc.

That’s the wrong question, as I keep pointing out. The ends are unknown — unknowable as argued by Ieldra2 — and cannot therefore be used as unquestionable justification.

I’d like to see proponents answer my question from above.

Modifié par lillitheris, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:22 .

[Lazengan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

synthesis ending has REALLLY dark undertones

>Peace between organics and synthetics
>Unhindered pan-galactic understanding
>Reapers are freed from enslavement after +1 billion years of having no free will
>Potential immortality
>Free knowledge for everyone
>"Lol really dark undertones"
Typical meatbag sentiments.

halt of all organic evolution

I don't care what the Catalyst says, this is just flat out wrong. As long as space and time exist, as long as some form of life exists, organic evolution cannot and will not end. The ending is so poorly written it's almost pointless to debate it. 

Also, I don't know why they changed it, but in an earlier draft of the script, the Catalyst tells Shepard that organics will be transformed to be more like him or her. In this version, Shepard is the blueprint for synthesis. In other words, they will be partly synthetic, but will still retain their individuality. Yes, that still leaves the moral dilemma of imposing a radical change upon the galaxy, but all the choices do that to some extent.

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

Yeah....*natural* evolution of *sapient* life. It's likely that post-Synthesis civilization will take control of its own evolution, ending the dance of random chance and selection for those integrated with technology. However, it is impossible that natural evolution is ended for all life. Evolution, in general, is a way for complexity to arise from simplicity. Life arises naturally from non-life, and more complex forms arise naturally from simpler ones, continuing until more complexity isn't conducive for surival anymore. If someone suddenly made all life unchanging, non-sapient life forms would just die out and be replaced by adaptable life. As long as you don't change fundamental laws of physics, that won't change.

So, it doesn't matter which biochemical change the Synthesis makes, non-sapient life forms will still react to to environmental stress factors and adapt. BTW, evolution has no goal.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

This assumption is canonical false: 

EDI:
"As the line between synthetic and organic disappears, we may transcend mortality itself to reach a level of existence I cannot even imagine."
"And we will remember that this chance for a new life did not come without cost."
"No matter how far we advance, we will remember the sacrifices of those who made it possible".

That sounds like the exact opposite of stagnation to me. I've said it before. There may be utopian undertones in the Synthesis ending, but the main theme is ascension, not utopia.

It sounds like a complete Utopia to me, Peace achieved across the entire galaxy because of coherent mutual understanding of each other down to the atomic level. The only reason for conflict and catalyzing the biological and sociocultural evolutionary process now is if an inter-galactic threat appears.

[Lazengan]

saracen16 wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Troxa wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Prior to the EC, no, I was fully aware of the fact that my Synthesis Shepard may have just unleashed a horde of insane and insanely powerful spaceships on the galaxy. However, the act of obliterating all synthetics or taking their free wills was morally impermissible to Shepard.

Naturally, I am relieved after the EC.

So you prefer to take away the free will of the organics
(in controll you only take the reapers not the geth or edi)

(Sigh) I swear this is the last time I say this. Synthesis is not shown as having taken away free will. 

I thought the EC slides showed a picture of blue-glowing geth alongside Reapers, and no EDI, after Control. Doesn't that indicate Shepard controlled them now?

synthesis takes away a form of your free will. It removes your spirituality, your individuality, and living in a Utopia will degress people to become content and have absolutely no desire for power or advancement, no more drive for evolution

All it does is alter the matrix of life and improves upon it. Otherwise, it does not in any shape or form take away one's individuality.

If it did, then why is the krogan city that is built in the ending... krogan?

we are following the path that the catalyst inteded

he guides our meta experiences through a predestined path of bio-synthetic evolution. What free will we have is just an illusion to what the catalyst is trying to achieve, in creating the perfect being

[JamieCOTC]

Lazengan wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

*snip*

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

The Catalyst is wrong and so is the writer who put those idiotic words into his mouth. EDI in fact corrects this mistake in the epilogue "to reach a level of existance I cannot even imagine."  That's called evolution. 

the Catalyst believes in one path that all organics and synthetics should follow

choosing synthesis closes off all other paths, which is an affront to everything evolution stands for

Evolution is about choices, free will, mistakes, chaos and the order that rises from the solved conflicts. Evolution is not teological as the catalyst believes, but has an infinite amount of pathways to follow.

I support a future of free will and the chaos of uncertainty, not forced down a certain path. Legion would agree with me, and he would choose destroy even if it meant his people's sacrifice. Better to die a free sapient being, than a thrall of the catalyst

Shepard uniting the galaxy IS the solution to the problem. The Catalyst says that synthesis is inevitable now that it's viable since the galaxy is now united. Why BW had to add those ****** choices is beyond me.

[Lazengan]

JamieCOTC wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

*snip*

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

The Catalyst is wrong and so is the writer who put those idiotic words into his mouth. EDI in fact corrects this mistake in the epilogue "to reach a level of existance I cannot even imagine."  That's called evolution. 

the Catalyst believes in one path that all organics and synthetics should follow

choosing synthesis closes off all other paths, which is an affront to everything evolution stands for

Evolution is about choices, free will, mistakes, chaos and the order that rises from the solved conflicts. Evolution is not teological as the catalyst believes, but has an infinite amount of pathways to follow.

I support a future of free will and the chaos of uncertainty, not forced down a certain path. Legion would agree with me, and he would choose destroy even if it meant his people's sacrifice. Better to die a free sapient being, than a thrall of the catalyst

Shepard uniting the galaxy IS the solution to the problem. The Catalyst says that synthesis is inevitable now that it's viable since the galaxy is now united. Why BW had to add those ****** choices is beyond me.

that is socio-cultural evolution

the catalyst has predestined path of biological evolution for the galaxy, one that I refuse to accept

[Ieldra]

Lazengan wrote...
choosing synthesis closes off all other paths, which is an affront to everything evolution stands for

Affront? LOL....sorry, but I don't get you. Evolution is a natural, value-neutral process of life.

Evolution is about choices, free will, mistakes, chaos and the order that rises from the solved conflicts. Evolution is not teological as the catalyst believes, but has an infinite amount of pathways to follow.

Choices and free will have nothing to with it. Solved conflicts have nothing to do with it. Evolution is a way for life to adapt to changing environments. What you are speaking of is *advancement*, most notably social and technological advancement. Synthesis is exactly about that, not about stagnation.

Biochemistry is.....just biochemisty. There is nothing particularly sacred or even less "spiritual" in it. DNA encodes proteins, proteins create the other stuff you're made from. For instace, if your DNA was suddenly replaced by a functionally identical different substance, it wouldn't make you one bit less "you". 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:32 .

[JamieCOTC]

Lazengan wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...

Lazengan wrote...

*snip*

the catalyst himself states that it is the FINAL END GOAL for evolution. I don't see in anyway how you can interpret this otherwise. Biological evolution simply cannot progress any further with synthetic life integrated. you may be able to upgrade your synthetic parts, but the catalyst for natural evolution is now gone.

And with the Galaxy in a Utopia, technological advancement and sociocultural evolution WILL come to a halt.

The Catalyst is wrong and so is the writer who put those idiotic words into his mouth. EDI in fact corrects this mistake in the epilogue "to reach a level of existance I cannot even imagine."  That's called evolution. 

the Catalyst believes in one path that all organics and synthetics should follow

choosing synthesis closes off all other paths, which is an affront to everything evolution stands for

Evolution is about choices, free will, mistakes, chaos and the order that rises from the solved conflicts. Evolution is not teological as the catalyst believes, but has an infinite amount of pathways to follow.

I support a future of free will and the chaos of uncertainty, not forced down a certain path. Legion would agree with me, and he would choose destroy even if it meant his people's sacrifice. Better to die a free sapient being, than a thrall of the catalyst

Shepard uniting the galaxy IS the solution to the problem. The Catalyst says that synthesis is inevitable now that it's viable since the galaxy is now united. Why BW had to add those ****** choices is beyond me.

that is socio-cultural evolution

the catalyst has predestined path of biological evolution for the galaxy, one that I refuse to accept

That's why there are three other choices I suppose.    To each his own.  

[Welsh Inferno]

lillitheris wrote...

SpectreVeldt wrote...

Welsh Inferno wrote...
I think Ieldra just sees it as an "Ends justifies the means" sorta way. I certainly recognise that morally, forcing something on everyone and thing in the galaxy is wrong. But all the endings are morally wrong, so it pretty much nullifies that consequence for me.

Good God!  Thank you!  Everyone is arguing over their own personal set of moral beliefs, which is their own way of answering that very question (if this particular end justifies the means), but not really presenting all systematic components.  The next step, then, is to fully understand and analyze the Synthesis End, and ask questions like: What do we gain from a lack of understanding?  One Example.  Etc.

That’s the wrong question, as I keep pointing out. The ends are unknown — unknowable as argued by Ieldra2 — and cannot therefore be used as unquestionable justification.

I’d like to see proponents answer my question from above.

Pretty much. Well done BioWare for keeping us all in the dark as much as you could... :happy:

What I see, is good. For everyone. Others do not, that is fine. I fear that some people who hate Synthesis' opinions are colored by hate towards BioWare(And bad writing) though. Not all, but some.

[The Heretic of Time]

Lazengan wrote...

the Catalyst believes in one path that all organics and synthetics should follow

choosing synthesis closes off all other paths, which is an affront to everything evolution stands for

Evolution doesn't stand for anything. Like I said, evolution is just a natural occurance of cause and effect that just is. It's part of our natural universe as much as gravity is part of our natural universe. Are you now saying that mass-effect ship drives that alter the gravitational pull of space-time in order to go faster than the speed of light are against everything gravity stands for? I hope you realize how little sense you make.

Lazengan wrote...

Evolution is about choices, free will, mistakes, chaos and the order that rises from the solved conflicts. Evolution is not teological as the catalyst believes, but has an infinite amount of pathways to follow.

You're right, evolution isn't theological, but you make it sound as if it is. Evolution is not about choices, free will, mistakes, chaos or order. Evolution simply is about (random) mutations v.s (natural) selection. That's all there is to it.

Lazengan wrote...

I support a future of free will and the chaos of uncertainty, not forced down a certain path.

Why would an imperfect chaotic  and uncertain universe be better than a perfect, logical, ordered and sound universe?

Lazengan wrote...

Legion would agree with me, and he would choose destroy even if it meant his people's sacrifice. Better to die a free sapient being, than a thrall of the catalyst

You mean the same Legion who chose to use the reaper code to drastically enhance his own species in order to force and direct the evolution of the geth to a higher level of true consciousness? Yeah, I doubt he'd agree with you.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 01 juillet 2012 - 06:38 .