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[Ranger Jack Walker]

Mike Gamble didn't comform anything. All he said that Kasumi is with Keiji in one slide.

I'm pro-synthesis but my preferred ending is Control. If what the Catalyst said is true and Synthesis is inevitable, then let it happen. My Shepard just removed the Reapers from the equation. If Synthesis is the eventual result, fine. I have no problem with Synthesis and I support the OP's ideas on what Synthesis is.

[Heeden]

lillitheris wrote...

Like I said. Soldier.

(If it was Stephen Hawking up there, I’d maybe trust his judgment. Maybe. But he’d be smart enough to not make the decision by himself.)

There was more text under that line...

their primary responsibility is to preserve galactic stability by whatever means necessary

Shepard's job is to make these sorts of decisions, as given to him by the Council who are generally accepted as the ruling body of the galaxy.

[lillitheris]

Heeden wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Like I said. Soldier.

(If it was Stephen Hawking up there, I’d maybe trust his judgment. Maybe. But he’d be smart enough to not make the decision by himself.)

There was more text under that line...

their primary responsibility is to preserve galactic stability by whatever means necessary

Soldier. Just no.

I kinda wish Shepard lived in Synthesis so he could be tried for his war crime and crimes against humanity (and alienity) and be sent to one of those prison space stations.

[Xilizhra]

lillitheris wrote...

Heeden wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Like I said. Soldier.

(If it was Stephen Hawking up there, I’d maybe trust his judgment. Maybe. But he’d be smart enough to not make the decision by himself.)

There was more text under that line...

their primary responsibility is to preserve galactic stability by whatever means necessary

Soldier. Just no.

I kinda wish Shepard lived in Synthesis so he could be tried for his war crime and crimes against humanity (and alienity) and be sent to one of those prison space stations.

Given that no one seems to mind Synthesis much, this strikes me as both unlikely and somewhat silly.

[Heeden]

lillitheris wrote...

Soldier. Just no.

Spectre, so yes. If you object to this you should have stopped playing in Mass Effect 1 and started getting angry then.

I kinda wish Shepard lived in Synthesis so he could be tried for his war crime and crimes against humanity (and alienity) and be sent to one of those prison space stations.

Hahaha, nice one. I know the galaxy can be petty and small-minded but imprisoning Shep for saving the galaxy is beyond even them :-)

Oh actually, who knows. Shep was locked up after blowing up the Battarians, maybe they would do it, heck they probably do it in the Destroy:Survive scenario so rest easy, in at least one ending Shep gets the punishment you feel he deserves for saving everyone. Hooray?

[lillitheris]

Xilizhra wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Heeden wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Like I said. Soldier.

(If it was Stephen Hawking up there, I’d maybe trust his judgment. Maybe. But he’d be smart enough to not make the decision by himself.)

There was more text under that line...

their primary responsibility is to preserve galactic stability by whatever means necessary

Soldier. Just no.

I kinda wish Shepard lived in Synthesis so he could be tried for his war crime and crimes against humanity (and alienity) and be sent to one of those prison space stations.

Given that no one seems to mind Synthesis much, this strikes me as both unlikely and somewhat silly.

True, the brainwashing would be a problem.

But he could be tried for galactic crimes when the next galaxy comes to visit.

Modifié par lillitheris, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't think it's really brainwashing as any of us would know it.

[Heeden]

lillitheris wrote...

True, the brainwashing would be a problem.

But he could be tried for galactic crimes when the next galaxy comes to visit.

Ha, you're head-canon just blew up your other head-canon.

[lillitheris]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think it's really brainwashing as any of us would know it.

“Thought pattern readjustment toward a more positive attitude regarding the loss of your individuality and freedom of thought” coming right up!

[Xilizhra]

lillitheris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think it's really brainwashing as any of us would know it.

“Thought pattern readjustment toward a more positive attitude regarding the loss of your individuality and freedom of thought” coming right up!

I don't think thought patterns are changed, or if they are, they're not changed directly. No one seems less free of thought than they were before, certainly. It's not as though it'd feel wrong; after it happened, as your DNA would be reweritten, it'd feel like you'd always been that way and just hadn't remembered it up until now. That's what makes the most sense to me, anyway.

[Obvakhi]

lillitheris wrote...
I kinda wish Shepard lived in Synthesis so he could be tried for his war crime and crimes against humanity (and alienity) and be sent to one of those prison space stations.

Tried for what? Doing his job? The whole galactic fleet went in full well having no idea what the Crucible even does. So now you want to arrest the person who activated the very device they spent building and risking their lives to protect?
LOL!

[Ieldra]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...
Mike Gamble didn't comform anything. All he said that Kasumi is with Keiji in one slide.

I'm pro-synthesis but my preferred ending is Control. If what the Catalyst said is true and Synthesis is inevitable, then let it happen. My Shepard just removed the Reapers from the equation. If Synthesis is the eventual result, fine. I have no problem with Synthesis and I support the OP's ideas on what Synthesis is.

The question is: will "natural" Synthesis still happen with a machine god policing the galaxy? Being ruled by a synthetic god emperor doesn't appear conducive to the kind of co-existence and integration Synthesis requires. 

Apart from that, some writer at Bioware is sure fond of his finalities, infinities and inevitabilities. I take those with a very large grain of salt. In this specific case, taking this as unconditional would make the whole choice a mockery, so it can't meant unconditionally. I take "inevitable" to mean "inevitable given certain prevailing conditions or interventions". I think they used it here because they didn't want to use the exact phrasing of the leaked script: "A path you've already started down".

So I guess you could headcanon your way into Synthesis-after-Control, but I'm more comfortable with speeding the process up than to depend on the assumption that the machine god I'd turn into wouldn't mess things up just by being there.

@Xilizrha:
That would still be brainwashing, or even worse from a moral POV, the kind of "true mind control" I'm talking about in my "Reaper mind control" hypothesis. I don't think that's what happens in any way. The nearest you come is in the way synthetics acquire understanding of organics. Otherwise, I'd say any change in perspective naturally arises from the changed circumstances of people's lives, with understanding synthetics, integrated technology and the knowledge of past cycles at your disposal.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:23 .

[lillitheris]

Obvakhi wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I kinda wish Shepard lived in Synthesis so he could be tried for his war crime and crimes against humanity (and alienity) and be sent to one of those prison space stations.

Tried for what? Doing his job?

His job was to destroy the Reapers.

…

Abhorrent and scary that Shepard would think it acceptable…

Modifié par lillitheris, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:20 .

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

… If what the Catalyst said is true and Synthesis is inevitable, …

The question is: will "natural" Synthesis still happen with a machine god policing the galaxy?

Apparently, yes.

Modifié par lillitheris, 06 juillet 2012 - 10:21 .

[Obvakhi]

lillitheris wrote...

Obvakhi wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
I kinda wish Shepard lived in Synthesis so he could be tried for his war crime and crimes against humanity (and alienity) and be sent to one of those prison space stations.

Tried for what? Doing his job?

His job was to destroy the Reapers.

…

Abhorrent and scary that Shepard would think it acceptable…

No, his job was to STOP the Reapers... that doesn't necessarily mean they have to drop over. In all 3 endings, the Reaper threat is stopped.

[Xilizhra]

@Xilizrha:
That would still be brainwashing, or even worse from a moral POV, the kind of "true mind control" I'm talking about in my "Reaper mind control" hypothesis. I don't think that's what happens in any way. The nearest you come is in the way synthetics acquire understanding of organics. Otherwise, I'd say any change in perspective naturally arises from the changed circumstances of people's lives, with understanding synthetics, integrated technology and the knowledge of past cycles at your disposal.

Changed perspective is one thing, but how would Synthesis feel? That's what I'm interested in. Clearly it doesn't feel bad, so how would it?

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...

@Xilizrha:
That would still be brainwashing, or even worse from a moral POV, the kind of "true mind control" I'm talking about in my "Reaper mind control" hypothesis. I don't think that's what happens in any way. The nearest you come is in the way synthetics acquire understanding of organics. Otherwise, I'd say any change in perspective naturally arises from the changed circumstances of people's lives, with understanding synthetics, integrated technology and the knowledge of past cycles at your disposal.

Changed perspective is one thing, but how would Synthesis feel? That's what I'm interested in. Clearly it doesn't feel bad, so how would it?

Ah, that's what you mean. I think it would feel natural. That's the whole point. You can integrate technology in a way that feels completely natural. Unless you're actively doing something with your new faculties, you won't notice they're there any more than you notice that your brain is there, or your hand for more physical faculties resulting from integrated technology.

I wouldn't call that a change in thought patterns. Not even a change in body awareness since whatever is added *is* now natural to you and there is no reason why anything should feel foreign.    

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

@Xilizrha:
That would still be brainwashing, or even worse from a moral POV, the kind of "true mind control" I'm talking about in my "Reaper mind control" hypothesis. I don't think that's what happens in any way. The nearest you come is in the way synthetics acquire understanding of organics. Otherwise, I'd say any change in perspective naturally arises from the changed circumstances of people's lives, with understanding synthetics, integrated technology and the knowledge of past cycles at your disposal.

Changed perspective is one thing, but how would Synthesis feel? That's what I'm interested in. Clearly it doesn't feel bad, so how would it?

Ah, that's what you mean. I think it would feel natural. That's the whole point. You can integrate technology in a way that feels completely natural. Unless you're actively doing something with your new faculties, you won't notice they're there any more than you notice that your brain is there, or your hand for more physical faculties resulting from integrated technology.

I wouldn't call that a change in thought patterns. Not even a change in body awareness since whatever is added *is* now natural to you and there is no reason why anything should feel foreign.    

That's all I meant; I shouldn't have included the part about memory. It just feels like something that's a part of you and isn't... I'm not sure if I should say "isn't new," but I will say "isn't foreign."

[lillitheris]

I bet it would feel like the best thing ever. Everything you ever wanted, really.

[Xilizhra]

lillitheris wrote...

I bet it would feel like the best thing ever. Everything you ever wanted, really.

Conveniently, it already is everything I ever wanted.

[DrZann]

lillitheris wrote...

I had to check because I thought maybe I misrecalled. Deontology is morality derived of duty. Whence this duty (or ruleset)? As I said, Shepard’s clearest duty and ruleset is that of the CoC — who ordered the destruction of the Reapers.

That is a misconception. The duty in Deontology, or duty-based ethics, is your duty to do the right thing, even if it produces a bad result. This duty is not derived from an institution but is inherent to reason.

One of Deontologies strengths, you avoid “Any means to an End” moral justifications for heinous acts.
As a side note, Deontology is also the ethical philosophy that birthed modern Human Rights.

lillitheris wrote...
I’d also argue that you can’t examine intentions without addressing the hypothetical consequences embedded in those intentions — since an ‘intention’ is “an agent's specific purpose in performing an action or series of actions, the end or goal that is aimed at.”

(The validity and correctness of the hypotheticals is a different matter.)

Here the end or goal aimed at would be doing the actors moral duty, not the consequences of fulfilling that duty. Doing the right thing is its own reward, an end unto itself.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Ieldra2 wrote...
\\The question is: will "natural" Synthesis still happen with a machine god policing the galaxy? Being ruled by a synthetic god emperor doesn't appear conducive to the kind of co-existence and integration Synthesis requires. 
\\

I'm not sure I would describe Control as being ruled by a synthetic god emperor. All Shepard says is how he/she will protect the Galaxy (in Paragon atleast) We don't just how 'involved' Shepard is with the Galaxy now.

What I'm saying is that if Shepard completely stays out of the way (which is what I choose to believe about Control) then Synthesis could happen on its own. Not 'naturally' but somehow it could happen.

[Baldrick67]

lillitheris wrote...

I bet it would feel like the best thing ever. Everything you ever wanted, really.

So synthesis turns all into crack ho's, giving us that reaper high.

"C'mon Harbinger just a little more synthesis, you know I'm good for it"

[Enthalpy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...

Interesting thoughts all around. I hypothesize that, since the geth and, by extension, synthetics, are deduced to be immune to indoctrination (they followed Sovereign of their own free will), post-synthesis organics would gain some resistance solely because of their changed nature. The change being not at all related to any behavioral alteration on the part of the Reapers.

From the description, I gather that organics' changed nature itself (the "altered matrix") doesn't have anything specifically synthetic. It just enables them to integrate technology. So I think that if it's the "part synthetic" aspect that provides protection, then it's the integrated technology. 

Yes, that's a better way of putting it.

Ieldra2 wrote...
I'd like to mention, though, that you don't necessarily notice an infection by hostile nanotech. The nanotech came in as part of indoctrination with ME:Retribution, and Cerberus scientists looked for it on the derelict Reaper without finding any, which lead Dr.Chandana to the assumption the derelict Reaper was safe. I think we can interpret this either way: either the nanotech was too elusive to find or the Reapers don't need any to indoctrinate. I tend to the former, though, because if Reapers could indoctrinate at will just by emitting that radiation, they would've done it more during the war. I recall how they invited leaders on Earth to "negotiations". Anyway, however this is achieved, I agree that the same faculties formerly used to indoctrinate are probably used to communicate now, and that both sides have control about whether they want to establish a connection and how deep this connection gets on their side. 

There are two other ways of interpreting this, I think (thanks for the info from the novel, btw. Never read the last couple.)

1. Both nanotech and radiation are required to achieve things through indoctrination. Nanotech "softens up" resistance, radiation transmits new instructions.
2. They are separate, but the range on the radiation is very small, say, a few kilometres. In space battles this would be insignificant. And it's unlikely an allied ship will be that close to a Reaper unless it's about to ram or get rammed.

[lillitheris]

DrZann wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

I had to check because I thought maybe I misrecalled. Deontology is morality derived of duty. Whence this duty (or ruleset)? As I said, Shepard’s clearest duty and ruleset is that of the CoC — who ordered the destruction of the Reapers.

That is a misconception. The duty in Deontology, or duty-based ethics, is your duty to do the right thing, even if it produces a bad result. This duty is not derived from an institution but is inherent to reason.

I’d have to drag out my philosophy books, but it sounds like you’re describing a particular deontological philosophy. The ten commandments, for example, are a deontological system. The basic idea is that you have a ruleset, and your actions are only moral if you follow those rules. The morality of the rules themselves is unimportant.

So, you can certainly argue that there is a system like you describe, but you’d need to define where the ‘right thing’ is laid out since otherwise it’s impossible to say whether the act is consistent or not.

One of Deontologies strengths, you avoid “Any means to an End” moral justifications for heinous acts.

…Unless that’s one of your rules

Modifié par lillitheris, 06 juillet 2012 - 11:45 .