9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
I had a similar idea, but with Shepard somehow returned to life.. I'm not completely sure how it'd work yet, but I can see a few possibilities.

I have a headcanon where Shepard's fragmented mind re-coalesces in a cluster of AI-grade computer systems. I can't help myself, I want Shepard to see what he's wrought, and given the amount of space magic needed by the Synthesis process it should be no problem to add a miniscule amount more. He'll exist incognito though, with no connection to his previous life except for one person, and acts mostly as a chronicler of post-Synthesis civilization. No more soldiering and similar stuff. He's done with that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juillet 2012 - 12:14 .

[Xilizhra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I had a similar idea, but with Shepard somehow returned to life.. I'm not completely sure how it'd work yet, but I can see a few possibilities.

I have a headcanon where Shepard's fragmented mind re-coalesces in a cluster of AI-grade computer systems. I can't help myself, I want Shepard to see what he's wrought, and given the amount of space magic needed by the Synthesis process it should be no problem to add a miniscule amount more. He'll exist incognito though, with no connection to his previous life except for one person.

I'm planning on it either via a greybox or some other means, eventually returning to a robotic body. Which might even be reproductively viable with Liara in the Synthesis ending. Quite frankly, the public implications of that are too much to resist, even putting aside finally being able to have a happy ending.

[JamieCOTC]

(from Village of the Damned)

One of the reasons people hate synthesis. Glowing eyes on everybody. It's typically not a good sign.
(or why BW screwed up horrendously when illustrating synthesis).

[Versus Omnibus]

JamieCOTC wrote...
One of the reasons people hate synthesis. Glowing eyes on everybody. It's typically not a good sign.
(or why BW screwed up horrendously when illustrating synthesis).

I always rationalize that the green glow thingamajig going on isn't permanent and will vanish over time, or could just be visuals by Bioware to show the audience changes were done.

[Shaigunjoe]

Versus Omnibus wrote...

JamieCOTC wrote...
One of the reasons people hate synthesis. Glowing eyes on everybody. It's typically not a good sign.
(or why BW screwed up horrendously when illustrating synthesis).

I always rationalize that the green glow thingamajig going on isn't permanent and will vanish over time, or could just be visuals by Bioware to show the audience changes were done.

Yea, I take it as strickly symbolic.

[Ieldra]

I take the green eyes as well as the overlay as an artistic representation of a mostly invisible change, though it's possible there will be a more subtle real effect like Joker's eyes in the Normandy scene, or Shepard's on Eden Prime, while watching the scenes from the Prothean's war against the Reapers.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juillet 2012 - 07:53 .

[Ieldra]

As suggested by others, I added this box to the OP at a prominent position:

Answer to the primary objection to Synthesis:

One of the most-used arguments against Synthesis is this: It is implausible that all the Reapers are suddenly friendly, or that everyone is suddenly ok with their presence, without some kind of mental influence, brainwashing or suchlike!

My Answer: As Legion tells us in ME2, the Reapers are the uploaded and conjoined minds of the civilizations of past cycles. This is not conjecture, but stated as a fact by a character who has some knowledge of the Reapers. Thus, there is significant truth to the claim that those species are somehow preserved in the Reapers, and it is not plausible they would all serve the cycle willingly without fail without being compelled. It is plausible to assume that the Catalyst has the Reapers under some kind of indoctrination-like mind control, subverting their will. If released, it is rather possible that some Reapers would remain hostile, but the majority would have reason to be grateful. There is even speculation that the Reapers might be complicit in Shepard's successthe Reapers might be complicit in Shepard's success[/url].

It only takes this piece of information - that the Reapers were enslaved - and people would be much more accepting of them, especially since they also help rebuild. I also like to mention that the ending paints a *generally* good future, which doesn't mean it's a *universally* good one. Of course there would be some resentment and even outright hate, as well as the rogue Reaper here and there, but bad side effects aren't shown in any of the endings, so I'll go with the assumption that those problems don't mar the big picture significantly.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juillet 2012 - 09:04 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As suggested by others, I added this box to the OP at a prominent position:

Answer to the primary objection to Synthesis:

One of the most-used arguments against Synthesis is this: It is implausible that all the Reapers are suddenly friendly, or that everyone is suddenly ok with their presence, without some kind of mental influence, brainwashing or suchlike!

My Answer: As Legion tells us in ME2, the Reapers are the uploaded and conjoined minds of the civilizations of past cycles. This is not conjecture, but stated as a fact by a character who has some knowledge of the Reapers. Thus, there is significant truth to the claim that those species are somehow preserved in the Reapers, and it is not plausible they would all serve the cycle willingly without fail without being compelled. It is plausible to assume that the Catalyst has the Reapers under some kind of indoctrination-like mind control, subverting their will. If released, it is rather possible that some Reapers would remain hostile, but the majority would have reason to be grateful. There is even speculation that the Reapers might be complicit in Shepard's successthe Reapers might be complicit in Shepard's success[/url].

It only takes this piece of information - that the Reapers were enslaved - and people would be much more accepting of them, especially since they also help rebuild. I also like to mention that the ending paints a *generally* good future, which doesn't mean it's a *universally* good one. Of course there would be some resentment and even outright hate, as well as the rogue Reaper here and there, but bad side effects aren't shown in any of the endings, so I'll go with the assumption that those problems don't mar the big picture significantly.

And this is the other side of the coin. The reapers do not preserve anything for the good of the organics. There is no reason to assume that they themselves are indoctrinated. If the control over the reapers is considered indoctrination then so is the control in synthesis by Shepard's essence. You can try to make the reapers appear as victims of the brat, but that doesn't make it true. The reapers harvest the bodies, the knowledge and the creations of organics. There is no proof whatsoever that this involves the essence of their being, nor something that resembles their soul. Legion talks about uploading them to programs. It is unclear what kind. AI? VI would suffice because that would be enough to store that knowledge. Those harvested bodies have already been exterminated by squeezing them to goo alive and pushing it through tubes to the reaper reproduction facility. They are dead. It's genocide. You can see this at work in detail with a human colony and see the result later of a partially finished human reaper abomination. If you want objectivity then add critique to your head canon and attempts to make war crimes sound good.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 08 juillet 2012 - 09:30 .

[Ieldra]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

As suggested by others, I added this box to the OP at a prominent position:

Answer to the primary objection to Synthesis:

One of the most-used arguments against Synthesis is this: It is implausible that all the Reapers are suddenly friendly, or that everyone is suddenly ok with their presence, without some kind of mental influence, brainwashing or suchlike!

My Answer: As Legion tells us in ME2, the Reapers are the uploaded and conjoined minds of the civilizations of past cycles. This is not conjecture, but stated as a fact by a character who has some knowledge of the Reapers. Thus, there is significant truth to the claim that those species are somehow preserved in the Reapers, and it is not plausible they would all serve the cycle willingly without fail without being compelled. It is plausible to assume that the Catalyst has the Reapers under some kind of indoctrination-like mind control, subverting their will. If released, it is rather possible that some Reapers would remain hostile, but the majority would have reason to be grateful. There is even speculation that the Reapers might be complicit in Shepard's successthe Reapers might be complicit in Shepard's success[/url].

It only takes this piece of information - that the Reapers were enslaved - and people would be much more accepting of them, especially since they also help rebuild. I also like to mention that the ending paints a *generally* good future, which doesn't mean it's a *universally* good one. Of course there would be some resentment and even outright hate, as well as the rogue Reaper here and there, but bad side effects aren't shown in any of the endings, so I'll go with the assumption that those problems don't mar the big picture significantly.

And this is the other side of the coin. The reapers do not preserve anything for the good of the organics.

They do, for the Catalyst's value of "good". The goal is to preserve organic and synthetic life *as such*, single species are preserved in the best way the Catalyst can think of without compromising its goal. Of course we can't agree with that purpose, but that doesn't change what the Reapers are.

There is no reason to assume that they themselves are indoctrinated.

I gave a rather plausible reason in the post you answered. See above.

If the control over the reapers is considered indoctrination then so is the control in synthesis by Shepard's essence.

Shepard's essence in Synthesis doesn't control anything, it just helps to make certain changes. Also, there is no link between the Catalyst's control of the Reapers and the way the Crucible changes life in Synthesis, thus no reason at all to assume they're similar.

You can try to make the reapers appear as victims of the brat, but that doesn't make it true.

It is plausible speculation. Neither you or me can look into the mind of a Reaper, so that's all we have. I do have evidence.

The reapers harvest the bodies, the knowledge and the creations of organics. There is no proof whatsoever that this involves the essence of their being, nor something that resembles their soul. Legion talks about uploading them to programs. It is unclear what kind. AI? VI would suffice because that would be enough to store that knowledge.

Legion says specifically "uploaded and conjoined minds". We also know that the genetic information is taken. In combination, what *else* can it be but the "essence of their being", unless you believe in a transcendent soul. You can deconstruct the phrasing all you want, it is very obvious what Legion's statement is meant to convey. We don't know exactly how it was done, but what the people taken were all continues to exist in some way. If it's recoverable as an individual, that's a different question.

Those harvested bodies have already been exterminated by squeezing them to goo alive and pushing it through tubes to the reaper reproduction facility. They are dead. It's genocide. You can see this at work in detail with a human colony and see the result later of a partially finished human reaper abomination. If you want objectivity then add critique to your head canon and attempts to make war crimes sound good.

This is getting tiresome, you know. Did I ever say forcibly uploading and conjoining minds was in any way desirable, or good? Even if you accept the harvested species are somehow preserved, of course we can't agree with them and anyway they've killed countless others, I can't believe I actually need to say this. The whole point is to stop it, remember?
But why must everything be totally black and white? Why is it so damned unthinkable to you that the Reapers may not have been their own masters, especially if so much evidence points to it: Legion implying they're as much victims as servants of the cycle, The Prothean VI saying "they're servants of the cycle not the master".
Apart from that, if you can't suspend your disbelief for the very common SF concept of uploaded minds, and the fact that the definition of what's alive and dead become blurry once you accept it, that's not my problem. Also, using the term "abomination" is a clear sign of not being objective about things. There are no abominations. There are just different forms of life.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juillet 2012 - 10:33 .

[Fuzzfro]

I wonder how the more primitive civilizations, such as the Raloi or even those who have yet to be discovered and are still fighting each other with spears would react to synthesis, I have seen this brought up a couple of times and am curious myself.

[Ieldra]

Fuzzfro wrote...
I wonder how the more primitive civilizations, such as the Raloi or even those who have yet to be discovered and are still fighting each other with spears would react to synthesis, I have seen this brought up a couple of times and am curious myself.

It's hard to come up with speculation about this because we don't know what's non-optional in Synthesis. Will the Reaper connection only work if a Reaper is in the vicinity? Also, since both sides must have control over the link, will there be an agreement to enact some non-interference directive towards non-technological civilizations? Will everyone have the ability to mindlink with anyone, or is that an optional "integrated technology"? If it's the latter, how will people come to discover it? Are the Reapers aware of all intelligent species in the galaxy? Is anyone else after Synthesis? More questions than answers.

 

[Aurora313]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I had a similar idea, but with Shepard somehow returned to life.. I'm not completely sure how it'd work yet, but I can see a few possibilities.

I have a headcanon where Shepard's fragmented mind re-coalesces in a cluster of AI-grade computer systems. I can't help myself, I want Shepard to see what he's wrought, and given the amount of space magic needed by the Synthesis process it should be no problem to add a miniscule amount more. He'll exist incognito though, with no connection to his previous life except for one person, and acts mostly as a chronicler of post-Synthesis civilization. No more soldiering and similar stuff. He's done with that.

My headcanon is quite similiar in that Shepard's mind manages to recompile itself at the very end, but she's split into piece. A part of her resides in her LI, like a constant whisper in the back of his mind he can't quite understand. Other parts exist in the extranet, computers and so on. Basically, my Fem!shep's LI gets rather haunting nightmares about Shepard herself being torn to pieces. Some of her fragments get caught by the wrong people and they're trying to spark a civil war only a few months to a year after the Reaper war ends. And its up to the LI to try and put all the pieces of the 'Shepard puzzle' back together.

When Shepard does get back though, the trauma of having her mind and body so completely shattered then reconsituted leaves her in an seemingly insane child-like state because the piece of her that resides in the LI holds her memories, and he has no idea how to return them.

I'm actually working on the details of the plot now, but it'll eventually be written.

[Heeden]

@Lili

Either the Reapers are indoctrinated or shackled, or every race when joined in consensus agrees with the Catalyst.

To the people head-canonning a resurrected Shepard after Synthesis, that's cheating :-P

[Ieldra]

Heeden wrote...
To the people head-canonning a resurrected Shepard after Synthesis, that's cheating :-P

Yes

@Aurora:
Don't forget to post a link once you've written it. I think I'll get around to writing my version some day. Eventually.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:25 .

[Aurora313]

What? As Ieldra said, Shepard deserves to see the fruits of their sacrifice.

Yes, I will Ieldra. Plan to do a draft prologue of it before going to be. Not alot just a few hundred words to kick start it.

Modifié par Aurora313, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:26 .

[Heeden]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Heeden wrote...
To the people head-canonning a resurrected Shepard after Synthesis, that's cheating :-P

Yes

Shep and Tali are tutting at you from my Destroy-universe, whilst fully restoring EDI and the Geth.

[Aurora313]

My Bro!Shep is content as the Head of the SpecTRes Branch and an Alliance admiral with Ash as his secretary/wife and as a Major in command of the SR3. (no, that is not a sexist comment - she's wearing the pants in the relationship and co-admins the SpecTRes too. In fact, she's the one telling him what to do most of the time.)

My Femshep chose synthesis. Kaidan's the one whose trying to piece her back together.

Modifié par Aurora313, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:36 .

[Chashan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Heeden wrote...
To the people head-canonning a resurrected Shepard after Synthesis, that's cheating :-P

Yes

@Aurora:
Don't forget to post a link once you've written it. I think I'll get around to writing my version some day. Eventually.

And I will openly admit I would have grinned had BW included Shepard rematerializing in the EC proper as a high-EMS option.

Another thing I wanted to comment on, Ieldra: recently, in some other topic, can't recall which exactly, you likened the rejection of perusing Reapers' technological know-how on the basis of the galaxy "building their own future" as being akin to "Protestant" ideology, to use your words.

I'll have to say, one need not subscribe to Calvinist predetermination and work-ethics to renounce utilising whatever data the Reapers are carriers of, as ultimately, not only the means by which the Reapers "store" the know-how of civilizations from eons past, but the sheer fact that they do it into ME's present at all is unnatural.

After all, the Reapers "preserve" - if you wish to go with their terminology - knowledge and memories of civilisations that are sometimes so old that they would have gone under in the natural course of things long ago even without the Reapers' intervention, be it apocalyptic warfare, cosmic catastrophes such as meteor strikes, super novae and the like.

Keeping this in mind, I do not see a particular problem to end "libraries armed with guns", as was so eloquently put elsewhere, because their inventory was not meant to endure to the present.

[Heeden]

If it helps, this is the first paragraph of Feersum Endjinn, about the experience of a personality stored digitally being reborn in a physical body.

Then, it was as if everything was stripped away: sensation, memory, self, even the notion of existence that underlies reality - all seemed to have vanished utterly, their passing marked only by the realisation that they had disappeared, before that too ceased to have any meaning, and for an indefinite, infinite instant, there was only the awareness of something; something that possessed no mind, no purpose and no thought, except the knowledge that it was.

After that came a rebuilding, a surfacing through layers of thought and development, learning and shape-taking, until something that was an individual, possessing a shape and capable of being named awoke.

[Aurora313]

@Chashan.
Yes, if Shepard had a high-ems, I would have loved to see the crucible after the Normandy - round about the time the 'breath' scene comes in the destroy endings - of Shepard's form being reformed within the Crucible.

But only if you've had a ridiculously high EMS like in the 5000-7000 range and 100% readiness. Synthesis is the 'good' ending. Makes sense that it's one you have to work like hell to earn.

Modifié par Aurora313, 08 juillet 2012 - 02:46 .

[Ieldra]

@Chashan:
The context of the argument I made was that the argument my opponent made came across as "We must reject all that knowledge because we haven't earned it". To which I call BS. The value of something is not determined by how hard we had to work to get it. We may get a sense of accomplishment from it, and of course that's worth something, but the objective benefits are exactly the same. To reject knowledge for the sole reason that it comes as a gift is stupid.

Also, when you argue that knowledge was "not meant to endure", you're arguing from a normative concept of history and/or nature where some things are "meant to" happen or "meant to" exist while others are not. I do not subscribe to such a view at all. What is, is. The past is. What the Catalyst did was bad, but that does neither remove nor add any value to what exists now, i.e. the knowledge contained in the Reapers. Reaperizing species is bad, but that does neither add nor remove any value to them as life forms. The Reapers, as they are, exist as intelligent life forms of a certain kind now, and should be treated as such regardless of how they came into being. "Abominations" aren't!

Lastly, the Reapers are avatars of the civilizations of past cycles. They aren't just "libraries with guns", they are *living* libraries with guns, created by uploaded the minds of people and conjoining them and adding genetic information to preserve the information about their physical aspect. Had they chosen this form of existence freely and were they not hostile, we would possibly perceive them as awesome. We have the right to fight and kill them because they attacked us, and because it may be risky, given their past actions, to set them free. I support choosing Destroy for that reason. But I accept no argument even remotely approaching the notion "They should not exist, so we kill them". If you want to know if killing a Reaper is an act of mercy, set it free and ask it! Assuming that without evidence is deceiving yourself into being merciful while being exactly the opposite.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:11 .

[Ieldra]

Aurora313 wrote...
@Chashan.
Yes, if Shepard had a high-ems, I would have loved to see the crucible after the Normandy - round about the time the 'breath' scene comes in the destroy endings - of Shepard's form being reformed within the Crucible.

But only if you've had a ridiculously high EMS like in the 5000-7000 range and 100% readiness. Synthesis is the 'good' ending. Makes sense that it's one you have to work like hell to earn.

LOL. An extra-bonus for the truly obsessed. I'd actually play MP for that without complaining, since I *would* like it, but also think it shouldn't be accessible in the MP-less story arc because it doesn't thematically fit. The theme is "Shepard sacrifices all that she is to get the best outcome for the galaxy".

[Chashan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Chashan:
The context of the argument I made was that the argument my opponent made came across as "We must reject all that knowledge because we haven't earned it". To which I call BS. The value of something is not determined by how hard we had to work to get it. We may get a sense of accomplishment from it, and of course that's worth something, but the objective benefits are exactly the same. To reject knowledge for the sole reason that it comes as a gift is stupid.

Also, when you argue that knowledge was "not meant to endure", you're arguing from a normative concept of history and/or nature where some things are "meant to" happen or "meant to" exist while others are not. I do not subscribe to such a view at all. What is, is. The past is. What the Catalyst did was bad, but that does neither remove nor add any value to what exists now, i.e. the knowledge contained in the Reapers. Reaperizing species is bad, but that does neither add nor remove any value to them as life forms. The Reapers, as they are, exist as intelligent life forms of a certain kind now, and should be treated as such regardless of how they came into being. "Abominations" aren't!

Lastly, the Reapers are avatars of the civilizations of past cycles. They aren't just "libraries with guns", they are *living* libraries with guns, created by uploaded the minds of people and conjoining them and adding genetic information to preserve the information about their physical aspect. Had they chosen this form of existence freely and were they not hostile, we would perceive them as awesome. We have the right to fight and kill them because they attacked us, and because it may be risky, given their past actions, to set them free. I support choosing Destroy for that reason. But I accept no argument even remotely approaching the notion "They should not exist, so we kill them". If you want to know if killing a Reaper is an act of mercy, set it free and ask it! Assuming that without evidence is deceiving yourself into being merciful while being exactly the opposite.

In this case, I would like to point you to the conversation with the Reaper on Rannoch:

www.youtube.com/watch

It is very telling that at the end of this, the Reaper shuts down / "dies", giving a good idea what its preferred consensus appears to be, which is to see its existence end. By extension, it appears likely the other Reapers, enslaved and bereft of their original existence as they are, may very well see it the same way.

PS: Blasting it to hell still is the lulzier approach in that particular scene. 

[Ieldra]

Chashan wrote...
In this case, I would like to point you to the conversation with the Reaper on Rannoch:

www.youtube.com/watch

It is very telling that at the end of this, the Reaper shuts down / "dies", giving a good idea what its preferred consensus appears to be, which is to see its existence end. By extension, it appears likely the other Reapers, enslaved and bereft of their original existence as they are, may very well see it the same way.

It is very interesting how different the scene plays out if you choose the Paragon option. Which I never do here. Do you know why? Because unfailingly,"make us understand!" represents my attitude to the whole ME trilogy. I want to win, but before I win, I want to know. That's something all my Shepards have in common.

Here's the version I usually get:



As you can see, the whole exchange is completely different. The Reaper even attempts a shorthand explanation of the cycle, even though without the Catalyst's explanations, we can't understand it, and in hindsight, it comes across as spouting the Catalyst's party line in an altogether eerie way which suggests something like indoctrination. Shepard attempts to prove it wrong. The game adapts Shepard's character and the Reaper's answers to the spirit of the option you choose. So....in your game your version might be true, but in my game, my version is true. I think that's why the ending dialogue with the Catalyst is so contradictory. It must be adaptable to both viewpoints.

So, you may choose to interpret that silent death your way, but it's definitely not canon. The world just shifts according to Shepard's viewpoint as selected by you. Whatever viewpoint you adopt here is the canon of your game only.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 juillet 2012 - 03:32 .

[JamieCOTC]

Heeden wrote...

@Lili

Either the Reapers are indoctrinated or shackled, or every race when joined in consensus agrees with the Catalyst.

To the people head-canonning a resurrected Shepard after Synthesis, that's cheating :-P

No. It's space magic! 

Seriously, the IT came up from people over thinking (and praying to the gods) that the ending was not as bad as they thought it was.  Synthesis is a higher existence where the galaxy is individual, yet connected at the same time, chaos and order both bonded together. And if you can’t understand that, well, guess what, Sovereign told you that you wouldn’t understand it. “There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it” Synthesis is what it is, no indoctrination, no brainwashing. Should Shepard impose that on the galaxy?  That’s the moral dilemma.