9089 réponses à ce sujet

[RiouHotaru]

Possibly. Some folks (Read: TAO) think it's inconsistent. And I don't think so. EDI considers herself alive already. She's just a new definition of alive now. Just as everyone else is a new living being.

[Ieldra]

SpectreVeldt wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Pacifien:
Please note that it's the anti-Synthesis faction who says that. As a Synthesis supporter, it is important for me that Synthesis doesn't make you any less you than you were before. You simply have a few additional options for your life. Your perspectives may change over time because of that, but immediately after Synthesis, you are...you. Just as Jacob says about Shepard: "You may have a few extra bits and pieces, but you're still you." The changes may be one level up in technology from Lazarus-style augmentations, even if they're probably much less extensive, but I don't have the slightest idea why Synthesis shouldn't work the same way.
 

While I think that the process is a lot more complex than you think it may be, with quite a number of variables to consider, that may be for another post.  There is an incredible difference between a sentient being merging with technology and a sentient being merging with another sentient being.  I would not consider merging with another sentient being or species (and especially considering how a species like the Geth work---their processes and run functions) merely "a few extra bits and pieces."

Yes, but a "merge with another sentient being" was never implied, even by the original ending. It was just implied that both sides' "biochemistry" would become one - which is nonsense between organics and synthetics for reasons I outlined in the OP and something I've always dismissed.

Now with the EC, it's specifically said that "organics will integrate with synthetic technology while synthetics will finally gain full understanding of organics". That may make a "merging" between an organic and synthetic possible in individual cases, though of course not on the biochemical level, and definitely opens the way for a more involved integration between the two sides, but it doesn't force a merge.

[Ieldra]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Has anyone considered Synthesis doesn't make anyone cyborgs, and more of just evolves them to be able to integrate with technology "in the future", and connect with technology using energy?

Read part IV.1 of my OP. I've speculated that Synthesis changes biochemistry in a way so that organics can now naturally integrate technology. Even before the EC, I speculated that Synthesis gives organics integrated tools for self-improvement rather than improve them to a specific template. There may be some basic functionality like those mindlinks, and possible integrated nanotech (see part IV.2 of the OP), because they make everything else possible, but mostly, which technology you integrate, if any, will be left to individuals.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juillet 2012 - 12:21 .

[lillitheris]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Obviously the process of altering people isn't painful nor traumatic, as the cutscene on Earth shows. If anything it's more jarring for the Husks and Reapers than for the humans. Even the krogan barely bat an eye at it.

It’s not traumatic to whatever creatures now inhabit the human bodies, no. See how this works?

So whatever physical changes are made are on the microscopic level.

Well, yeah, it is a “new DNA” after all.

…

Aside from Synthesis being completely unnecessary in ‘being able to integrate technology directly’, that’s also not what the Catalyst describes (or what we see).

So, I dunno how to express this well. If you insist that Synthesis is just this small change that definitely doesn’t change who you are at all…

Then I can say that Destroy doesn’t actually kill anyone but the Reapers who aren’t actually composed of several minds, and that the organic/synthetic conflict actually isn’t in any way inevitable, we can rebuild the relays in 4 weeks, and that we’ll eventually learn to integrate technology directly anyway.

You gotta play by the same rules for any of it to be meaningful. Cherry-picking the parts you like, ignoring the ones you don’t, adding stuff that you invented yourself…all well and good, but you’re not talking about the same thing anymore.

[Pacifien]

lillitheris wrote...
Then I can say that Destroy doesn’t actually kill anyone but the Reapers who aren’t actually composed of several minds, and that the organic/synthetic conflict actually isn’t in any way inevitable, we can rebuild the relays in 4 weeks, and that we’ll eventually learn to integrate technology directly anyway.

Aside from the fact that the Geth and EDI appear to be missing in the dialogue and that the Reapers were said to be composed of entire civilizations, I'd say all of that is possible with Destroy.

With Synthesis, the Catalyst gave them the future. With Destroy, they can try to build it themselves.

[lillitheris]

Pacifien wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
Then I can say that Destroy doesn’t actually kill anyone but the Reapers who aren’t actually composed of several minds, and that the organic/synthetic conflict actually isn’t in any way inevitable, we can rebuild the relays in 4 weeks, and that we’ll eventually learn to integrate technology directly anyway.

Aside from the fact that the Geth and EDI appear to be missing in the dialogue

They were busy doing stuff.

and that the Reapers were said to be composed of entire civilizations,

That was just a metaphor, like “new DNA”. It meant composed like ground beef is of cows.

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The changes may be one level up in technology from Lazarus-style augmentations, even if they're probably much less extensive, but I don't have the slightest idea why Synthesis shouldn't work the same way.

…Because it fundamentally changes everything. Something that even metaphorically creates a “new DNA”…it’s astronomically unlikely that it would not have significant cognitive effects.

To compare it to cybernetic augmentation is rather silly — or, alternatively, if you think they’re relatively close, that obviates the need for Synthesis to begin with.

Again you are ignoring the new exposition in the EC. It does not change "everything". The EC specifically says what will happen. Organics wlll be able to seamlessly integrate with synthetic technology, purportedly through some biochemical change that may include a new DNA-analogue (for organics, this is actually possible). How this necessarily changes existing cognitive processes escapes me. It is implausible that this will not change your perspectives over time, yes, but I can't see how it will make any immediate changes to your feelings, thoughts and memories - i.d. the things that make continuity of identity.

Suppose there actually is a new DNA-analogue for organics, which would code for the same proteins the old stuff did, only it isn't limited to that. Everything but the way information is encoded in the cells of your body stays the same. It would have to that way because otherwise you'd die. Then add the new stuff, maybe protein.based tech interfaces, nanotech or suchlike. It would be as I said....you're still you, only with some stuff added.

[TMA LIVE]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Possibly. Some folks (Read: TAO) think it's inconsistent. And I don't think so. EDI considers herself alive already. She's just a new definition of alive now. Just as everyone else is a new living being.

Well, instead of EDI gaining anything organic, I'm more of thinking the energy around her is allowing her to feel. That she feels through it. Like making contact with something with an electric charge, that creates static. That through that green energy, she can now feel.

[Enthalpy]

I have not seen this mentioned anywhere, so I'll just ask here. What do you guys think happens to the "in-progress" Reapers from our cycle? We see reports of destroying harvesting centres during the game, so we can gather that at least for some species, a new Reaper has been started. Do you think they have Reaper-like intelligence and behaviour straight away, or are they more like the geth in that one "process" alone is useless, so they can't achieve sentience without a critical mass?

[Ieldra]

Enthalpy wrote...
I have not seen this mentioned anywhere, so I'll just ask here. What do you guys think happens to the "in-progress" Reapers from our cycle? We see reports of destroying harvesting centres during the game, so we can gather that at least for some species, a new Reaper has been started. Do you think they have Reaper-like intelligence and behaviour straight away, or are they more like the geth in that one "process" alone is useless, so they can't achieve sentience without a critical mass?

Short answer: "no data available"

Given ME2's human Reaper, I think a Reaper's intelligence grows the more minds are conjoined in it. What "natural" Reaper-like behavior is is anyone's guess since since they were controlled by the Catalyst.

Anyway, I don't think any of the writers spent any time thinking about this.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juillet 2012 - 04:29 .

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The changes may be one level up in technology from Lazarus-style augmentations, even if they're probably much less extensive, but I don't have the slightest idea why Synthesis shouldn't work the same way.

…Because it fundamentally changes everything. Something that even metaphorically creates a “new DNA”…it’s astronomically unlikely that it would not have significant cognitive effects.

To compare it to cybernetic augmentation is rather silly — or, alternatively, if you think they’re relatively close, that obviates the need for Synthesis to begin with.

Again you are ignoring the new exposition in the EC. It does not change "everything". The EC specifically says what will happen. Organics wlll be able to seamlessly integrate with synthetic technology, purportedly through some biochemical change that may include a new DNA-analogue (for organics, this is actually possible). How this necessarily changes existing cognitive processes escapes me. It is implausible that this will not change your perspectives over time, yes, but I can't see how it will make any immediate changes to your feelings, thoughts and memories - i.d. the things that make continuity of identity.

Don’t blame me, it wasn’t my idea to create a new DNA and a new life matrix or whatever. You just don’t get any more everything than DNA, unless you start changing things at the atomic level.

For the rest, I’ll refer you to the second paragraph you quoted.

[Ieldra]

I've explained how DNA isn't "everything" in the paragraph you conveniently omitted...

[Ieldra]

Flog61 wrote...
Can we just agree that synthesis forces evolution into a path it wouldn't have taken by itself, removing the validity of calling it evolution?

Others have disagreed, but I agree with the first part. Something like Synthesis does - giving organics the ability to naturally integrate technology - almost certainly won't happen except as a deliberate change. The Catalyst says it's inevitable that it would eventually happen, if organics could survive that long, purportedly, but that doesn't mean it has to occur without intervention. It just means that technological civilizations will eventually make such interventions if they survive long enough.

"Evolution" is used in a very loose sense here. I'd call it "artificial evolution" for clarity, but it's still evolution. You could say that the species which create technological civilizations create their own environment, and technological interventions are as natural an occurrence for them as random mutations are in other species.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juillet 2012 - 06:26 .

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I've explained how DNA isn't "everything" in the paragraph you conveniently omitted...

No, you haven’t explained it. You just said it wasn’t. But, you know, there’s all this biology and stuff.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Let us not forget the Keiji's Grey Box becoming sapient thing. This poses some very interesting possibilities... like can Shepard get reboot #2 in a synthetic body from Liara depending upon how the Gift is ever defined ... it hasn't ever been defined by the writers.

Now, EDI also hints about possibilities of immortality. Everyone can network now, and may be able to backup to the "cloud" and on "death" of the physical form can be downloaded into a new synthetic body. Would reproduction even be necessary after a certain point?

i think with the reapers being free and that EDI says that their civilizations have awakened that they might have been not aware at all of what was going on. They were a failed attempt at synthesis by the catalyst. Basically just machines doing what they were told.

This now gets to the husks. Yikes. Okay here's the dirty work force. Even utopias have classes.

[Taboo]

Yeah, about the immortality thing.

The mere addition paradox kind of takes precedence here.

Unless you plan on the Soylent Green solution.

[His Name was HYR!!]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

This now gets to the husks. Yikes. Okay here's the dirty work force. Even utopias have classes.

Two words: District 9.

That's one of the big reasons why I reject the "utopia" vibe of EC Synthesis. There's going to be some real controversy there about working with the Reapers, no matter how good they will insist their intentions are. I think a lot of people would douche-kill husks because they'd associate them with enemies and "you killed my freinds/family" -type mentalities.

As for the "immortality" thing, I kind of could have done without that idea altogether. It's not a desirable goal if you ask me.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:16 .

[Taboo]

You can't reject it. It's there, and it's laughable. Audibly.

You will stagnate eventually. You WILL hit a limit, as I stated in the first pages of this thread.

All you've done is ensured that it will happen sooner.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You can't reject it. It's there, and it's laughable. Audibly.

You will stagnate eventually. You WILL hit a limit, as I stated in the first pages of this thread.

All you've done is ensured that it will happen sooner.

Not really. There's no proof everyone will want to work together peacefully. I don't think anybody is going to turn down the massive help that the Reapers themselves would offer, but husks could easily face A LOT of descrimination. Like the prawns.

Also don't agree with the stagnation argument. There's plenty to achieve: rebuilding, FTL flight, mass-relays, Joker's disease, aesthetic changes from synthesis (hide green-eyes, conceal green glow on skin)... Those are just examples you can list from a cursory look at the ending.

(Unless you were referring to the last sentence).

[Taboo]

I was referring to the last sentence. Synthesis IS inevitable, as stated by the Catalyst. Eventually you will stagnate. Not now, but you will eventually.

Plus immortality doesn't do you much good when you have too many beings. Mere Addition Paradox.

Thinking about this over my vacation made me realize that I just can't see Synthesis in Mass Effect, at least in the story I wanted for my Shepard.

It works for some people and that's cool, I just wish it wasn't so...well loopy sometimes.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You can't reject it. It's there, and it's laughable. Audibly.

You will stagnate eventually. You WILL hit a limit, as I stated in the first pages of this thread.

All you've done is ensured that it will happen sooner.

Then we move on to other galaxies and sythesize them eventually bringing the entire universe into our collective. Think how wonderful and how powerful our collective mind will be.

But what if they already did synthesis and theirs was purple? What then?

[Taboo]

I was listening to Mordin talking about how the galaxy demanded diversity.

Everyone is now one species in Synthesis. Individuals, but the same species.

Then Liara started talking about diversity.

And then I see the pain on Miranda's face when talking about not having a choice.

And it's all over for me.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I was listening to Mordin talking about how the galaxy demanded diversity.

Everyone is now one species in Synthesis. Individuals, but the same species.

Then Liara started talking about diversity.

And then I see the pain on Miranda's face when talking about not having a choice.

And it's all over for me.

Species: Electronicus ___________

[Taboo]

No see I played through Mass Effect 2 twice over my vacation. I of course romanced Miranda both times.

I had forgotten how how her face reveals. Powerful. Very moving.

That quote from Iggy Pop in my signature sums up what I've done in Destroy.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I was referring to the last sentence. Synthesis IS inevitable, as stated by the Catalyst. Eventually you will stagnate. Not now, but you will eventually.

That line was a head-scratcher to me. He doesn't even think we'll last very long after we invent AI. And it's aparently inevitable now because... we know about it. The two of us standing in a vaccum are the reason why our civilization will trend toward it. Okay?

In the end, I reasoned that it was a moot point. Ever heard that joke about the religious man in a flood, who's given countless opportunities to save himself, and turns them all down because "It's okay, the Lord will save me!"?