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[Taboo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I was referring to the last sentence. Synthesis IS inevitable, as stated by the Catalyst. Eventually you will stagnate. Not now, but you will eventually.

That line was a head-scratcher to me. He doesn't even think we'll last very long after we invent AI. And it's aparently inevitable now because... we know about it. The two of us standing in a vaccum are the reason why our civilization will trend toward it. Okay?

In the end, I reasoned that it was a moot point. Ever heard that joke about the religious man in a flood, who's given countless opportunities to save himself, and turns them all down because "It's okay, the Lord will save me!"?

I would feel better about Synthesis if I could take responsibility for it. Warn people and such. Because it is inevitable, I see no reason to force it on people who are unsuspecting.

Synthesis cannot be...forced remember.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:40 .

[Ieldra]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...
Let us not forget the Keiji's Grey Box becoming sapient thing. This poses some very interesting possibilities... like can Shepard get reboot #2 in a synthetic body from Liara depending upon how the Gift is ever defined ... it hasn't ever been defined by the writers.

From Liara? I don't think so. Not enough information. But in general, a reboot #2 scenario is not impossible. Thematically problematic though, and strictly fan fiction territory.

Now, EDI also hints about possibilities of immortality. Everyone can network now, and may be able to backup to the "cloud" and on "death" of the physical form can be downloaded into a new synthetic body. Would reproduction even be necessary after a certain point?

It will still be necessary. Because people die, even if they're not aging and can upload. Some will be killed, and at some point, many people will have enough of life and move on.

i think with the reapers being free and that EDI says that their civilizations have awakened that they might have been not aware at all of what was going on. They were a failed attempt at synthesis by the catalyst. Basically just machines doing what they were told.

EDI doesn't say that (only that those civilizations will be connected to all in some way), but it's an interesting idea on how Synthesis could affect the Reapers. Where before, the minds conjoined in them were not "awake" and thus did as they were told, Synthesis will awaken them. Hmm....I really like that idea, and thematically very fitting.

This now gets to the husks. Yikes. Okay here's the dirty work force. Even utopias have classes.

I don't see post-Synthesis civilization as an utopia. There will be new wonders and new horrors. But if those husks are newly awakened instead of infused with the identities of people, then the fact that they look like zombies in the eyes of human won't necessarily bother them.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:21 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

 I also disagree with the idea that everyone is one species now. Synthesis changes basically just what you're capable of, not what you are. Garrus is no less turian than before, James isn't less human, and so on.

It would be like saying Garrus and James were the same species pre-synthesis because they both ate food and needed sleep.

[Taboo]

They are like the Geth. One species. They are all linked.

When Legion uploads the Reaper code, he essentially achieves a form of Synthesis. That's what it is.

But you don't need to jump into the beam to do that.

[Ieldra]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
I was referring to the last sentence. Synthesis IS inevitable, as stated by the Catalyst. Eventually you will stagnate. Not now, but you will eventually.

That line was a head-scratcher to me. He doesn't even think we'll last very long after we invent AI. And it's aparently inevitable now because... we know about it. The two of us standing in a vaccum are the reason why our civilization will trend toward it. Okay?

In the end, I reasoned that it was a moot point. Ever heard that joke about the religious man in a flood, who's given countless opportunities to save himself, and turns them all down because "It's okay, the Lord will save me!"?

Yeah. Bioware's writing around all that stuff is full of infinities, finalities and inevitabilities. I wonder who's responsible for them. It's really bad writing - we all know in almost all cases there's no such thing. I take it to mean "inevitable under certain conditions we don't meet without intervention."

Or it could mean that Synthesis is a process that starts with the Crucible's green option, but won't be finished until that time in the future EDI refers to when the line between organics and synthetics will disappear. So you get that ability to integrate technology, but if you don't want to, you don't need to do anything with it and can live your life as before. That could be meant by saying "it can't be forced".

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:49 .

[Taboo]

Did anyone else here do a double take at the part about the fire metaphor?

Please tell me you did.

Dear me.

[Ieldra]

Yes, I did. Urgh.

The "new...DNA" was bad. Didn't think this way of using metaphors could become a pattern.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:51 .

[TMA LIVE]

Here's an idea of what the Catalyst might mean by "You can't force it". Even though it kind of still is doing that.

If you let them know ahead of time that Synthesis is going to hit them, and completely change them, they'd probably commit suicide before it happened, or the second you forced them to take the hit against their will. While in this version, they don't know what's hitting them, or if it does anything to them. Or what exactly it has done to them. And by the time they do, they aren't alone, and will later have a full understanding of what happened.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:55 .

[RiouHotaru]

The fire metaphor made sense to me.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

They are like the Geth. One species. They are all linked.

When Legion uploads the Reaper code, he essentially achieves a form of Synthesis. That's what it is.

How does that compare? The geth were already one species.

If anything, post-code geth are less uniform than before, when they were all networked-intelligence. Now they are all individual AI intelligence.

[TMA LIVE]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Did anyone else here do a double take at the part about the fire metaphor?

Please tell me you did.

Dear me.

It made sense to me, with what it was trying to tell me.

Yes, fire does not choose to commit genocide, but it did. But I did get that it's considers itself just doing what it was made to do, and has no other care.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 10 juillet 2012 - 08:58 .

[Taboo]

You WILL stagnate eventually. That WILL happen.

And now you have people working towards immortality. If that occurs you're in deep trouble. Mere Addition Paradox and all that.

Utilarianism is nice, but only when kept within reasonable bounds. I believe that all people want to be happy, but it isn't my choice to decide how they are happy.

I don't like how they painted over the consequences of endings either. I see no mention of the dead Geth. Perhaps they wish me to rebuild them if I want.

I don't know. Overriding the moral dilemmas reeks of...

[Taboo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

They are like the Geth. One species. They are all linked.

When Legion uploads the Reaper code, he essentially achieves a form of Synthesis. That's what it is.

How does that compare? The geth were already one species.

If anything, post-code geth are less uniform than before, when they were all networked-intelligence. Now they are all individual AI intelligence.

You achieve what they have. That's my point.

A TRUE understanding.

[Uncle Jo]

Heeden wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

By maintaining the Reapers in the game in the control ending, you still validates the conclusions of the brat. He thought of synthetics and organics as children who will always need an adult/overseer. You may have replaced him by a more tactful, comprehensive one. But you're still an overseer.

That's pretty much the basis of all government - large numbers of people can not (or it is incredibly difficult for them to) rule themselves effectively so a system is put in place that concentrates the power. Every single race has some sort of ruling body.

First, I'd like to commend you for ignoring the rest of my post and advocating the Control's cause in a thread and a conversation which is about Synthesis. Nice bump.

Second, you're dead wrong.

The Reapers weren't chosen by the galaxy's races, it was Shepard who decided that it'll be better if she and her new pals play the galactic cops. Shep and the Reapers are unchallenged, their will is absolute. If they want to go on rampage again or dictate their own rules, no one can oppose them. This is the basis of a dictatorship, not of all governments.

Dictatorships do not always end badly any more than violations of rights and martial law are exclusive to them. There have been benevolent dictatorships and malevolent democracies throughout history as well as the vice-versas (awkward phrase I know), the Roman Empire managed to resemble all permutations at various points in their history.

I think the ending makes it quite clear that your Paragon/Renegade rating dictates whether Shepard rules with an iron fist or a velvet glove.

Are you serious ? You're pleading for dictatorship ? Why every modern society has abandoned this type of government then? Why are the others actually trying to get rid of it ?

I don't give a damn about a dictator being benevolent or not. S/he's still a dictator. It's about the principle.

Yes, democracy is not the perfect system, but people still decide who's going to lead them, there is countervailing powers (assembly, parlament and so on..) and laws to prevent to a certain point, eventual misuses.

The Roman Empire you're bragging about had its Senate, which influence and power weren't underestimated even by the worst emperors, because it could lead to their death. A sort of balance, even if it didn't work all the times.

None of this happens in your system. You're alone in command.

At that point the war was already won. You made those sacrifices to gain vengeance, not victory (or if I'm being cynical, "justice").

Thanks for the laugh. As long as you don't make your choice, the war is about to be lost.This has nothing to do with vengeance, it has to do with eliminating the worst threat the galaxy has ever known.

And you're all but in the right place to judge me or my motives. Not after what I read above.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 10 juillet 2012 - 09:38 .

[Pacifien]

Taboo-XX wrote...
You WILL stagnate eventually. That WILL happen.

I read a lot of books about technological singularities, so no, I don't feel that WILL happen.

[Pacifien]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Here's an idea of what the Catalyst might mean by "You can't force it". Even though it kind of still is doing that.

If you let them know ahead of time that Synthesis is going to hit them, and completely change them, they'd probably commit suicide before it happened, or the second you forced them to take the hit against their will. While in this version, they don't know what's hitting them, or if it does anything to them. Or what exactly it has done to them. And by the time they do, they aren't alone, and will later have a full understanding of what happened.

I know the counterargument to that is that if they wouldn't have accepted it before, and then suddenly the accepted it after Synthesis, then somehow you have fundamentally altered their programming and they must be under some mind control.

And I think that argument is based on the personal feeling of the poster, that *they* cannot fathom accepting Synthesis, and they're horrified that Synthesis would change someone's opinion to be okay with it. I mean, someone like Javik, where hatred of the Reapers and synthetics runs that deep, would probably kill himself rather than agree to Synthesis, right?

But you bring up a good point, that with Synthesis, Javik is hit with full understanding of the situation. It could open his eyes. Open everyone's eyes to simply stop and understand each other.

Of course, I know some people say that Reapers are 100% evil and are devoid of any right to be allowed understanding. I know people in real life who truly believe in the existence of pure evil. Something like the Reapers, even if they were once sentient beings deserving of all the rights to the rules of engagement that dictate the morality of war, forfeited those rights by committing acts against humanity so atrociously evil, they deserve no quarter.

I know that argument exists, but I don't have a response to that. Not one that I imagine someone who honestly believes that would accept anyway. My Shepard was all about redemption and second chances, and I guess that includes pure evil.

[dbkkk]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I was listening to Mordin talking about how the galaxy demanded diversity.

Everyone is now one species in Synthesis. Individuals, but the same species.

Then Liara started talking about diversity.

And then I see the pain on Miranda's face when talking about not having a choice.

And it's all over for me.

How is everyone one species in Synthesis? Do you know what the definition of a species is?
Or are you throwing the term around in a generalistic sense. Just curious.

[Vigilant111]

Pacifien wrote...

Of course, I know some people say that Reapers are 100% evil and are devoid of any right to be allowed understanding. I know people in real life who truly believe in the existence of pure evil. Something like the Reapers, even if they were once sentient beings deserving of all the rights to the rules of engagement that dictate the morality of war, forfeited those rights by committing acts against humanity so atrociously evil, they deserve no quarter.

I know that argument exists, but I don't have a response to that. Not one that I imagine someone who honestly believes that would accept anyway. My Shepard was all about redemption and second chances, and I guess that includes pure evil.

Forgiveness and redemption are irrelevant in synthesis, technology advancement ensures people other than the reapers are sufficiently geared against potential uprising of them, IN THEORY, but if technology could reach such a height, the existence of the reapers becomes redundent

For people to accept the reapers into the circle, they must undergo extensive psychological therapy because a great number of them are severely scarred, unless you are willing to say that synthesis changes organic mentality fundamentally

Yes, we accept that there are morally grey characters in life and in game, but these morally grey qualities must be explored thouroughly in length, and the game didn't actually set u up to trust the Catalyst, the decision u made in the Citadel is an arbitrary one. The genocides commited by the reapers are by no means morally grey, it is foul and infamous and indignant, no matter what the purpose is... the reapers are trying to control life, they could not accept the fact that there are things that u cannot control, they have overestimated themselves due to advanced technology, but I am sorry, but technology does not warrant the right to kill

Modifié par Vigilant111, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:42 .

[lillitheris]

Pacifien wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
Here's an idea of what the Catalyst might mean by "You can't force it". Even though it kind of still is doing that.

If you let them know ahead of time that Synthesis is going to hit them, and completely change them, they'd probably commit suicide before it happened, or the second you forced them to take the hit against their will. While in this version, they don't know what's hitting them, or if it does anything to them. Or what exactly it has done to them. And by the time they do, they aren't alone, and will later have a full understanding of what happened.

I know the counterargument to that is that if they wouldn't have accepted it before, and then suddenly the accepted it after Synthesis, then somehow you have fundamentally altered their programming and they must be under some mind control.

And I think that argument is based on the personal feeling of the poster, that *they* cannot fathom accepting Synthesis, and they're horrified that Synthesis would change someone's opinion to be okay with it. I mean, someone like Javik, where hatred of the Reapers and synthetics runs that deep, would probably kill himself rather than agree to Synthesis, right?

But you bring up a good point, that with Synthesis, Javik is hit with full understanding of the situation. It could open his eyes. Open everyone's eyes to simply stop and understand each other.

Shoulda coulda woulda. It’s too late for maybes when the mind control happens. That’s why you research first.

I’m mainly horrified by someone thinking it’s OK to do that to others. I’d call it gambling people’s lives, but that’s such an innocuous term. I’m also slightly horrified that someone would think that it’s OK to do even when they know other people would be horrified by it. That should be a pretty clear sign that reconsideration might be in order.

You want to be respectful of others’ personal freedom but also keep the Synthesis option open? Choose Control.

[Ieldra]

Pacifien wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
You WILL stagnate eventually. That WILL happen.

I read a lot of books about technological singularities, so no, I don't feel that WILL happen.

Indeed. I'd rather think the opposite would happen, and that's what EDI means when she talks about an advancement to a state of being we can't imagine now.

[Ieldra]

Vigilant111 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Of course, I know some people say that Reapers are 100% evil and are devoid of any right to be allowed understanding. I know people in real life who truly believe in the existence of pure evil. Something like the Reapers, even if they were once sentient beings deserving of all the rights to the rules of engagement that dictate the morality of war, forfeited those rights by committing acts against humanity so atrociously evil, they deserve no quarter.

I know that argument exists, but I don't have a response to that. Not one that I imagine someone who honestly believes that would accept anyway. My Shepard was all about redemption and second chances, and I guess that includes pure evil.

Forgiveness and redemption are irrelevant in synthesis, technology advancement ensures people other than the reapers are sufficiently geared against potential uprising of them, IN THEORY, but if technology could reach such a height, the existence of the reapers becomes redundent.

I disagree that forgiveness and redemption are irrelevant in Synthesis. That is very much needed to integrate the Reapers into civlization. That technological safeguards exists doesn't change that.
I agree that the Reapers will eventually lose their aura of transcendence because technology and general advancement will catch up. At that point, they're nothing special anymore. That's the whole point.

For people to accept the reapers into the circle, they must undergo extensive psychological therapy because a great number of them are severely scarred, unless you are willing to say that synthesis changes organic mentality fundamentally

Yes, there will definitely be problems like this. I see the epilogue slides as indicative of a general tendency, not that everyone will suddenly have a Reaper in their backyards and be happy with it. That the Reapers help rebuilding should alleviate some concerns, but it will take time.

Yes, we accept that there are morally grey characters in life and in game, but these morally grey qualities must be explored thouroughly in length, and the game didn't actually set u up to trust the Catalyst, the decision u made in the Citadel is an arbitrary one. The genocides commited by the reapers are by no means morally grey, it is foul and infamous and indignant, no matter what the purpose is... the reapers are trying to control life, they could not accept the fact that there are things that u cannot control, they have overestimated themselves due to advanced technology, but I am sorry, but technology does not warrant the right to kill

I think nobody here is trying to justify the cycle. I'm just attempting to absolve the Reapers from responsibility to some degree. As I see it, the cycle is a sort of cosmic accident caused by a buggy super-intelligent AI whose creators forgot to give it something akin to Asimov's laws of robotics. There are no "bad guys". It's just "sh*t happens" on a cosmic scale.

(BTW, I think this is how it was intended to come across in the first place. At least, that's the only reason I can imagine why the writers would expect people to trust the Catalyst at least to a certain degree. That it largely failed has several reasons, one of the more important ones being that they pushed the horror elements up to eleven in ME2 and then in ME3 again)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2012 - 08:52 .

[DrZann]

lillitheris wrote...

I see what you’re saying. As I said, it’s kind of self-serving and thus pointless, but I understand your argument.

That is still, however, a particular philosophical system — which is fine, but it’s not quite the same as using the blanket term of deontological philosophy.

No, responsibility for ones actions and not the actions of others is general deontology. It's important, but I don't remember why.

lillitheris wrote...

DrZann...
We are not talking about the duty of a soldier but the duty of a rational agent. It's doing the right thing for the right reason, because it is the right thing to do. Not murdering someone because you are afraid you'll get caught is not the same as not murdering someone because it's your duty not to murder people.

And intentionally allowing someone to be murdered is the same as doing it yourself.

Why is it the right thing to do? Is the rule ‘never do anything someone suggests you do’?

I don't understand? This was intended to answer your question about the nature of duty.

lillitheris wrote...
I was under the impression that you argued that Refuse was the best option considering from this deontological point of view. If I was mistaken, I’m sorry.

I don't have any intentions of finding a best option at all. I don't believe there is a best option.

While reading the forums I realized that people were making some rather confused and inconsistent moral arguments for various options. I wanted to see what the moral landscape looked like from a rational perspective.

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yeah, about the immortality thing.

The mere addition paradox kind of takes precedence here.

Unless you plan on the Soylent Green solution.

If you mean EDI's reference to passing "beyond mortality" I think she was talking about a potential "ascension" beyond a physical form. If they do opt for physical immortality constructing artificial habitats (such as the Citadel) should belay the need for cannibalism.

Taboo-XX wrote...

They are like the Geth. One species. They are all linked.

Geth aren't one species because they are linked, they are one
species because they are descended from the same code. Shep didn't
become Geth when he linked in to their consensus.

When Legion uploads the Reaper code, he essentially achieves a form of Synthesis. That's what it is.

But you don't need to jump into the beam to do that.

Legion
didn't because his hardware already had the capability to transmit his
mind-state, Shepard's body does not have that capability.

Taboo-XX wrote...

I was referring to the last sentence.
Synthesis IS inevitable, as stated by the Catalyst. Eventually you will
stagnate. Not now, but you will eventually.

I think the
Catalyst means if he is allowed to continue Synthesis will be inevitable
(I imagine that is what happens to the next cycle if you Refuse, only
without all the horrible first). The Catalyst is way too keen on
absolutes, it's an interesting quirk.

Synthesis cannot be...forced remember.

Those three dots do leave an awfully big gap for speculation :-)

[Chashan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Did anyone else here do a double take at the part about the fire metaphor?

Please tell me you did.

Dear me.

Yeah, after confessing to committing genocides over and over again for eons, admitting to being an arsonist is not exactly a big deal anymore, is it? 

A conversation between the thing and Mr Solus would have been interesting indeed...although as far as squad-mates go, Javik would have taken the lead there. 

Other than that, I find arguments trying to downplay the rather clear utopic currents that permeate Green somewhat dishonest: you "save" the Reaper's rank-and-file (I would have preferred "silent deaths" on screen there), you "upgrade" everyone physically and possibly mentally as well, you do achieve universal peace - it is implied all over the place - and finally appear to unearth the fountain of youth as well while you are at it.

Denying that this very closely resembles the utopia of more idealistic make 
(not the original, more questionable concept of Thomas More) seems absurd to me.

Modifié par Chashan, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:15 .

[Pacifien]

lillitheris wrote...
I’m mainly horrified by someone thinking it’s OK to do that to others. I’d call it gambling people’s lives, but that’s such an innocuous term. I’m also slightly horrified that someone would think that it’s OK to do even when they know other people would be horrified by it. That should be a pretty clear sign that reconsideration might be in order.

Needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few sort of deal.

Control is a good argument for keeping everyone alive while trying to ensure the personal liberties of as many people as possible. It puts Shepard only through a technological singularity and keeps the Reapers enslaved. I was talking to someone who has no knowledge of Mass Effect about the whole endings dilemma (one who believes in 100% evils), and he found absolutely no problem with that. Control has its merits, and I could argue for it. I could also argue against it, but I'm not gonna 'cause this is the Synthesis thread. I'll argue for and against every single ending, so I keep it separate.