Taboo-XX wrote...
Did anyone else here do a double take at the part about the fire metaphor?
Please tell me you did.
Dear me.
The reapers have been always burnin' since the galaxies been turnin'
A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)
Débuté par
Ieldra
, mai 20 2012 05:10
#3151
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 12:35
Shaigunjoe
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The reapers have been always burnin' since the galaxies been turnin'
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#3152
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 12:41
Mobius-Silent
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I just thought I'd post my Synthesis write-up here in case anyone's interested:
While Mass Effect, in general, is a little sloppy with the terminology the things that the synthetics gain at each point of the story fits well into current philosophy and IMHO explains synthesis (once the EC clarified it):
People say that EDI was definitely having emotions before synthesis but people (sapients) without empathy can still desire it. I interpreted EDI's attempts at "human" interaction as acting on a "want" and trying to understand without actually feeling. Even in ME3 when Shepard give colloquial advice like a couple requiring "chemistry" EDI doesn't get it, because she doesn't have the empathy to feel hence she has to ask to be told.
Y'see I don't see the Geth story as sentience vs sapience, I see that as individuality vs gestalt, and I think that story is done reasonably well in hindsight. Geth have no identity and no intelligence without a sizeable group of them, hence cooperation is natural and almost required. the heretic situation illustrates that there will be fractures in their unity, illustrating the need to be capable of individual self-sufficiency. The Quarian attack panics them, they make a bad call and lose their self determination. Only a Geth platform-cluster acting as an isolated individual succeeds in saving them. Then it sacrifices it's own identity to save the consensus even though it had achieved individuality illustrating that individuality and the consensus are not mutually exclusive.
Hence the Geth embrace it as an "upgrade" each runtime is now capable of sapience on its own, but is still part of the consensus, it's as if the Geth got a 1000-fold processing upgrade (Where 1000 Geth were needed for sapience, now only 1 is) Now Legion was already 1000 runtimes, and I believe he was still 1000 runtimes and yet a single entity, hence I'd say that Legion was much more capable of understanding emotions compared to EDI and maybe even blossoming into sentience just before he died, but only just
It's almost like the ME universe is positing a "sociopath gap" in the computational ability of AI
Axis of increasing computational power:
Dumb terminal -----> VI --> Sapient AI =======> Sentient AI
Between sapient and sentient is where the intellect is sapient enough to think for itself but not sentient enough to relate to other intellects with empathy. Which would explain why most AI's turn out badly. Synthesis short-circuits that problem by providing a usable base framework and getting it everywhere.
This also satisfies the problem of people re-creating AI. It's just like genetically engineering a severely autistic organic, possible, but not useful, additionally the technology of the framework give a path of "growth" for the nascent AI where it can eventually escape its limited perception. Hence minimising "killer" AI.
Clarificaton on Sentience vs Sapiance
Hence a new AI is sapient and thus doesn't understand organics however should still be considered a full "person" whereas the whole organics vs synthetics thing was seemingly a quest for synthetic sentience, the ability to "feel" (have implicit emotion) hence EDI's comment during the synthesis ending, there she smiles, almost cries and really feels "alive"
Hence the Catalyst failing to create "synthesis": It can't make something it doesn't understand.
Hence the important differentiation between what happens to organics vs what happens to synthetics. Which, in turn, quells confusion about the synthetics "gaining organic bits" (This doesn't happen they just gain sentience)
The main thing is that a lot of people see "personness" (sapience) as the only metric to measure worth, hence they can't see what they synthetics gained in synthesis and/or they don't see how gaining access to "feeling" would help an AI however AI theory really values our "feelings" and posits that they are the thing that allows infinite information space problems to return with a solution in finite time.
ME seems to posit that the lack of "feeling" is what reduces the understanding of synthetics to the degree that they will always threaten the existence of organics (due to being unable to value the things we value)
Finally some pure unsupported techno babble regarding the detail of the "new framework"
Ok so we saw that the "New framework"'s base-element was smaller than a DNA nucleobase (in the EC cinematic) given that a nucleobase is only ~13 atoms we must assume that the "new framework" also functions at the atomic scale , so let's say that a complete nanotech "unit" is a meta-base that wraps around the existing base that can be transparent to molecular interaction depending on outside forces.
What element do we know of that is small, and given certain circumstances might be considered "transparent" in an electro/gravitic sense?
Element zero.
So we have an element zero complex that wraps around a DNA strand, acting as a "processing unit" like a synapse but much much smaller, that could either act as cognition or act in concert with others to enhance existing organic interaction or a fragmentary Mass Effect Field generator. Any organic system that previously just generated new cells now generates "wrapped" DNA in those cells.
Biotics are what you get when there are Element zero nodules in the brain, what if you were using Eezo as a sympathetic layer to enhance all organic processes. and/or as an extended neural net. It also explain what happened to the massive eezo stores in the relays (Galactic scale ME-field nano-surgery )
While Mass Effect, in general, is a little sloppy with the terminology the things that the synthetics gain at each point of the story fits well into current philosophy and IMHO explains synthesis (once the EC clarified it):
- EDI went from being a VI to an AI on luna, she gained sapience and gained the ability to reason (classical Sapience)
- The Geth gained individuality from the Reaper code upgrade (the ability for a single runtime to think independently, however they didn't lose their ability to become even more in the consensus) they remained sapient hence they didn't lose anything of their nature
- Synthesis didn't add organic parts to synthetics it just re-based their platforms on the "new framework" that allows their platforms to be capable of supporting sentient software
- Organics were re-based on the new framework that could include their organics but didn't replace it. The framework could function without the organic parts (Opening up the possibility of imortality down the line) but also worked in concert (as you saw in the EC sequence, the elements of the "new framework" encircled the organic DNA helix. Organics are augumented, nothing is replaced.
The Reason the Catalyst failed to create synthesis is because it couldn't. The whole point of synthesis was to create a new type of platform that catered to organic-style thinking while still supporting existing organic and synthetic consciousnesses. The Catalyst and the Reapers can't think like organics, therefore all their attempts ended up like the husk/banshee/marauder/collector, techno-organic machines, nothing moreThe Energy of the Crucible, released this way, will alter the matrix of all organic life in the galaxy
Organics seek perfection through technology, Synthetics seen perfection through understanding
Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology
Synthetics, in turn will have finally have full understanding of organics
People say that EDI was definitely having emotions before synthesis but people (sapients) without empathy can still desire it. I interpreted EDI's attempts at "human" interaction as acting on a "want" and trying to understand without actually feeling. Even in ME3 when Shepard give colloquial advice like a couple requiring "chemistry" EDI doesn't get it, because she doesn't have the empathy to feel hence she has to ask to be told.
Y'see I don't see the Geth story as sentience vs sapience, I see that as individuality vs gestalt, and I think that story is done reasonably well in hindsight. Geth have no identity and no intelligence without a sizeable group of them, hence cooperation is natural and almost required. the heretic situation illustrates that there will be fractures in their unity, illustrating the need to be capable of individual self-sufficiency. The Quarian attack panics them, they make a bad call and lose their self determination. Only a Geth platform-cluster acting as an isolated individual succeeds in saving them. Then it sacrifices it's own identity to save the consensus even though it had achieved individuality illustrating that individuality and the consensus are not mutually exclusive.
Hence the Geth embrace it as an "upgrade" each runtime is now capable of sapience on its own, but is still part of the consensus, it's as if the Geth got a 1000-fold processing upgrade (Where 1000 Geth were needed for sapience, now only 1 is) Now Legion was already 1000 runtimes, and I believe he was still 1000 runtimes and yet a single entity, hence I'd say that Legion was much more capable of understanding emotions compared to EDI and maybe even blossoming into sentience just before he died, but only just
It's almost like the ME universe is positing a "sociopath gap" in the computational ability of AI
Axis of increasing computational power:
Dumb terminal -----> VI --> Sapient AI =======> Sentient AI
Between sapient and sentient is where the intellect is sapient enough to think for itself but not sentient enough to relate to other intellects with empathy. Which would explain why most AI's turn out badly. Synthesis short-circuits that problem by providing a usable base framework and getting it everywhere.
This also satisfies the problem of people re-creating AI. It's just like genetically engineering a severely autistic organic, possible, but not useful, additionally the technology of the framework give a path of "growth" for the nascent AI where it can eventually escape its limited perception. Hence minimising "killer" AI.
Clarificaton on Sentience vs Sapiance
The bit I find the most important"Sapience Sapience is often defined as wisdom, or the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment".
Compare to:"Sapience describes an essential human property that bestows 'personhood' onto a non-human"
and IMHO the most important bitSentience is the ability to feel, perceive or be conscious, or to have subjective experiences"
EDI starts on Luna in ME1 as an experimental VI, complex enough to blossom into an AI where she gains sapience. in ME2 and ME3 she tries to understand human emotion, but it's all based of self modification of code, she decides a given thing should be true and thus modifies her programming to make it true,she never feels any of it."Eighteenth century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think ("reason") from the ability to feel ("sentience")"
Hence a new AI is sapient and thus doesn't understand organics however should still be considered a full "person" whereas the whole organics vs synthetics thing was seemingly a quest for synthetic sentience, the ability to "feel" (have implicit emotion) hence EDI's comment during the synthesis ending, there she smiles, almost cries and really feels "alive"
Hence the Catalyst failing to create "synthesis": It can't make something it doesn't understand.
Hence the important differentiation between what happens to organics vs what happens to synthetics. Which, in turn, quells confusion about the synthetics "gaining organic bits" (This doesn't happen they just gain sentience)
The main thing is that a lot of people see "personness" (sapience) as the only metric to measure worth, hence they can't see what they synthetics gained in synthesis and/or they don't see how gaining access to "feeling" would help an AI however AI theory really values our "feelings" and posits that they are the thing that allows infinite information space problems to return with a solution in finite time.
ME seems to posit that the lack of "feeling" is what reduces the understanding of synthetics to the degree that they will always threaten the existence of organics (due to being unable to value the things we value)
Finally some pure unsupported techno babble regarding the detail of the "new framework"
Ok so we saw that the "New framework"'s base-element was smaller than a DNA nucleobase (in the EC cinematic) given that a nucleobase is only ~13 atoms we must assume that the "new framework" also functions at the atomic scale , so let's say that a complete nanotech "unit" is a meta-base that wraps around the existing base that can be transparent to molecular interaction depending on outside forces.
What element do we know of that is small, and given certain circumstances might be considered "transparent" in an electro/gravitic sense?
Element zero.
So we have an element zero complex that wraps around a DNA strand, acting as a "processing unit" like a synapse but much much smaller, that could either act as cognition or act in concert with others to enhance existing organic interaction or a fragmentary Mass Effect Field generator. Any organic system that previously just generated new cells now generates "wrapped" DNA in those cells.
Biotics are what you get when there are Element zero nodules in the brain, what if you were using Eezo as a sympathetic layer to enhance all organic processes. and/or as an extended neural net. It also explain what happened to the massive eezo stores in the relays (Galactic scale ME-field nano-surgery )
Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 11 juillet 2012 - 12:57 .
#3153
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 12:44
Shaigunjoe
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Interesting ideas Mobius. Does this whole 'new stuff that wraps around DNA' make anyone think of epigenetics?
#3154
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 01:21
AngryFrozenWater
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[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
And this is the other side of the coin. The reapers do not preserve anything for the good of the organics.[/quote]
They do, for the Catalyst's value of "good". The goal is to preserve organic and synthetic life *as such*, single species are preserved in the best way the Catalyst can think of without compromising its goal. Of course we can't agree with that purpose, but that doesn't change what the Reapers are.[/quote]
The brat's value of good is not important when it is using cyclical genocide to reproduce reapers by using its horrific "ascension through destruction" method. The horrors inflicted upon the reapers' victims are questionable and the "end justifies the means" does not apply to victims, especially given the sheer number of genocides. No matter how hard you try.[/quote]
I am not trying to justify anything. The Catalyst's actions just are. We cannot agree with them but I can also place no absolute moral value on them because the Catalyst is amoral. I wonder why it is so impossible for you to accept that the Catalyst has a completely non-human value system and as such cannot necessarily be judged by human morals. I don't need moral condemnation to stop the Reapers. It's enough that I want galactic civilization to survive.[/quote]
You are denying that in the first sentence of your paragraph above and in the next part you just continue your justification without any empathy, because "The Catalyst's actions just are." Haha. If you have to admit that what the brat and the boys did was so incredible evil that nothing in our own history compares then you would have to face the fact that any co-operation leads to condoning those horrible actions. And you can't have that in your utopia, can you?
It is rather simple: You don't have to understand the ethics of a serial killer who murdered you, your family, your friends and the rest of the planet in the most horrific way imaginable. The morality of the serial killer can never rise above that of its victims. What you are trying to do is tell: "Don't worry. You fail to understand why this serial killer did what he did, but it was in his best interest." It sure wasn't in the interest of those who were slaughtered.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Also, the reapers do not "preserve" life. They kill to reproduce and to stay on top of the food chain.[/quote]
We have three independent sources who claim the opposite, as well as a great deal of plausible speculation:
(1) Legion: A Reaper is "uploaded and conjoined minds". He also explicitly confirms that Reapers are many minds when Shepard asks. This also implies that individual minds can still be perceived if you mentally contact a Reaper.
(2) EDI. A Reaper preserves the "essence" of a species.
(3) The Catalyst itself.
If the Reapers just needed genetic material, they could have that without all the hassle of that complicated harvesting process: take samples and clone the stuff, then bomb the worlds from orbit. Why do they need complete individuals? I can only think of one explanation: they need their minds. There is evidence that those are preserved in some way (see Legion). It's pretty straightforward logic, actually, which doesn't get invalidated by mere assumptions to the contrary. BTW, this is not after-the-fact rationalization. I have said exactly that in debates about the end of ME2 two years ago. The Catalyst has only confirmed it.[/quote]
You are arguing just to win a discussion. Otherwise it would have come to you that they do not need complete bodies. As a matter of fact they prefer it to be blended in a mixer first. Look at ME2 and how the bodies are processed: They are squeezed alive to goo which is pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction facility. Apparently they like their bodies blended.
Child: We harvest your bodies, your knowledge, your creations. We preserve it to be reborn in the form of a new reaper.
That is what the brat says. Legion talks about programs, which a sentence later he calls minds. But do we know what kinds of programs? VIs or AIs? Knowledge is all the child wants, so VIs would suffice. Again, you are making it very hard for your cause to try to make more of this than really is required. It would work against you when true. I'll come back to that later.
But again, it gets interesting. Just like I argue that Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is mixed into the Crucibles energy for a reason you don't like, you use a similar argument for the extraction of the victims' minds from the goo - as in "Why do they need complete individuals?" and "EDI. A Reaper preserves the 'essence' of a species."
But of course, in my case, you don't like the implications of that. Well, I'll confront you with the implications of your head canon later.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The brat and its boys maintain that top by making sure that the organics and synthetics never pass that top. Synthesis fans also paint a situation in which the brat and the boys do good work when they are interfering with the civilizatons without their victims' consent. The brat is never asked, yet it keeps violating the right of self-determination by any means possible, from intrigue to cyclical genocide.[/quote]
This is just plain bullsh*t. I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm just absolving the Reapers from responsibility to some degree.[/quote]
Ghehe. Yes, you are "just absolving the Reapers from responsibility". You can leave the "to some degree" out. That head canon just solves your needs, because later the reapers will become members of the synthesis utopia, right? And you cannot have any rotten apples there.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
There is no reason to assume that they themselves are indoctrinated.[/quote]
I gave a rather plausible reason in the post you answered. See above.[/quote]
No, you did not. You just gave a rationalization of how you believe the brat's control over the reapers works. I have a more simple one in the reapers' case: Befehl ist Befehl. The reapers' in their infinite wisdom should have known how that works and yet, they did not rise against the brat.[/quote]
(1) There is evidence from three independent sources that the Reaperized species are somehow preserved in the Reapers. Thus, I feel justified in treating this as a fact.
(2) Given that this is so, it is implausible that all Reapers, almost without fail, have followed the Catalyst's commands to do to others what was done to them without being compelled. A free Reaper would have every reason to rebel against its creator, and with no evidence for social pressure to conform among the Reapers, no reason at all not to be able to. Unless there is some kind of indoctriation at work.[/quote]
1). There is evidence from the brat itself, from Shepard in the form of his or her sacrifice, and a device visible in-game which shows the process before a live audience (you) that his "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is "broken down" and mixed with the Crucible's energy to be "dispersed". And thus this must play an important role in the mental implementation of synthesis. It cannot be physical. After all, we don't see quarians running around on five toe feet and krogan do not lose their hump. Shepard is barely alive, but he or she is still in one piece. Doesn't that help too? Ghehe. Here is your link again. If you claim that your speculations are true then you cannot deny the only one with overwhelming evidence, only because it doesn't suit your needs. Thus, I am certain I can treat this as a fact.
2). Maybe the reapers just have the minds of a predator. Maybe the reapers just believe the brat, like you do. Would be handy and plausible, given their reproduction methods. Whatever the nature of the cause, they must be held responsible for their actions, especially when they claim that they are way smarter than us. They know exactly how humans work. From fear (turning dead bodies against organics) to deceit (indoctrination) and that includes a long list which I have written somewhere before. Those that commit horrors like that, do not deserve to be safeguarded in such a way. If they did it countless of times, chances are that they'll do it again. Besides, the end does not justify the means. Nor are the victims interested in why they have been abused and certainly those who have survived the atrocities are not interested in that.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You see, with all their superior intelligence they were not able to figure out that what they did was wrong. Any sane organism with a bit of empathy would not be able to live with itself.[/quote]
This is a baseless generalization.[/quote]
That's odd. Could you live with yourself once you've discovered that you were responsible for countless genocides? Or could you rationalize it away? I hope not, because lack of empathy is the trademark of the perfect serial killer.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The Illusive Man and Saren were able to see figure that out in the end, even when indoctrinated, and understood the difference between right and wrong. They committed suicide as a result.[/quote]
They commited suicide not because of any moral consideration, but because they realized they were indoctrinated and death was preferable to living as indoctrinated slaves.[/quote]
Think "Benezia" and see above.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If synthesis preaches that synthetics would gain understanding of organics then that empathy would surface on the reapers too. Yet, it didn't happen. They were perfectly able to act as tools to rebuild the civilizations without blinking a green glowing eye. So even then, the reapers and everything within waved all that away.[/quote]
There are several things wrong with this: (1) we don't know how Synthesis changes the Reapers - are they treated as synthetics because their bodies are synthetics, or as organics because their minds have come from organics? If it's the former, btw, then the Reapers gain understanding which their constituent species already had. Did that survive in the Reapers, do they need any of those changes? No idea. (2) Not committing suicide in this situation is no evidence for lack of empathy.[/quote]
We are absolutely sure that the reapers, and even the husks, are effected by synthesis. After all, everyone is glowing green now and they too are glowing green like there is no tomorrow. And even if deny that reapers have no AI mind then we have another version which is supposed to "free" them in a similar way: You claim that indoctrination is the cause of their previous behavior. Guess what? It's not there anymore. They can now think for themselves.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If the control over the reapers is considered indoctrination then so is the control in synthesis by Shepard's essence.[/quote]
Shepard's essence in Synthesis doesn't control anything, it just helps to make certain changes. Also, there is no link between the Catalyst's control of the Reapers and the way the Crucible changes life in Synthesis, thus no reason at all to assume they're similar.[/quote]
If there is no link between Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" and synthesis then it is of no use and Shepard dies a martyr without a reason.[/quote]
I'm sorry but there IS no link:
(1) The Catalyst indoctrinated the Reapers
(2) Shepards serves as a template for the Synthesis, which physically changes all organic life in the galaxy.
These are statements which are completely independent from each other. There is absolutely nothing to suggest any similarity.
As an aside, you might make that argument with regard to the understanding gained by synthetics through Synthesis, but the big difference is: they want that understanding.[/quote]
You can jump up or down, but there is overwhelming support in that "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is". Shepard's great looks and sexy voice is certainly not what the races are waiting for. Or are you telling me that the krogan now have one heart, because Shepard has one? But of course you *know* it is about his mental capabilities, but that doesn't help your cause, does it? The link is that such an essence only works in the case where it helps your cause. I have discussed this above too. No need to repeat myself.
There are very few who wanted anything related to whatever scheme the brat and the boys dreamed up, BTW. There's only a small elite. Two of the brat's supporters, Saren and TIM, are dead now. Elitist Shepard, who supports a superior race by synthesis, could be the only one left, though. The geth do not belong to the brat's supporters, because the geth wanted to find out things their own way and that's what separated them from the heretics.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If in synthesis the reapers were somehow liberated from their hypothetical enslavement then agony as a result of clarity of their actions in the past should have gotten the better of them. They are supposed to think like organics. Much like EDI's "I am alive." If it is true that those who were uploaded by "ascension through destruction" didn't lose their original minds then these would be in agony as well, because they now are free from the mental shackles after the "liberation" too. Unless of course the reapers' core AI kept indoctrinating them after synthesis. Their lives were destroyed and if it is true that their minds kept their essence they would be caught in a reaper's body for eternity anyway. And thus there would be no liberation possible for them. Forever prisoner and nowhere to go. Yet, no protests were heard after synthesis.[/quote]
If you want to claim that some Reapers committed suicide post-Synthesis because they can't live with what they did, that's perfectly possible. But you're making a pretty big assumption in claiming that this new form of life is, by itself, something bad. I won't claim the opposite, either, but I do insist we do not know and have no reason to assume anything either way.[/quote]
Tss. Make up your mind. It is one way or another. If you do not know then do not fight just to win the discussion.
I claim that every reaper with a bit sanity left would commit suicide. In that case there wouldn't be much of them left, except maybe the sociopathic ones. We can do without.
I promised before that I would get back to you earlier in this post. Here it goes:
But I also claim a second thing. The harvested minds, if what *you* claim is true, those with the essence of the original minds, would end up in a living hell. Everything they once had and loved is unreachable or destroyed. Forever prisoner in a reaper body with nowhere to go. Pulling the plug would be an act of mercy. However, they keep silent. In that case this might be because of indoctrination to force them to obey before synthesis. After synthesis indoctrination again or the often mentioned mind control that fuels the utopia. From whatever angle I look at it, that eternal prison sentence is not the way I would want to end up.
Even if they cried "Save us!" wouldn't it be better to end their eternal hell?
The fact that they do not complain about their horrific situation leads me to believe that only the knowledge was extracted - just like brat says. In that situation nothing is really lost. We can do without those VIs and gain that knowledge our own way. According to the destroy epilogue the civilizations are perfectly able to do without the reapers' help. The reapers are not the solution, they are the problem.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You can try to make the reapers appear as victims of the brat, but that doesn't make it true.[/quote]
It is plausible speculation. Neither you or me can look into the mind of a Reaper, so that's all we have. I do have evidence.[/quote]
What evidence? Speculation that glorifies borderline war crimes which you call plausible? Rationalizations that try to make evil look good? Also, see the paragraph above and in more detail below.[/quote]
All of the above? My theory fits the evidence. Besides, I am trying to explain, not justify. Unsurprisingly for someone whose perspective is so tainted by moral outrage that clear thinking has become impossible, the distinction appears to escape you.[/quote]
Of course you are only speculating, of course you not explaining and of course you are justifying. You even admit it when you say that you are "just absolving the Reapers from responsibility". The end justify the means, right?
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The reapers themselves do not believe they are preserving such essence of the minds of the harvested races.[/quote]
I'll point to Pacifien's argument about Sovereign here. No need to repeat it.[/quote]
Not sure if I already responded to her, but I am talking to you. There's a difference. She doesn't have the same drive as you.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Child: We harvest your bodies, your knowledge, your creations. We preserve it to be reborn in the form of a new reaper.
That doesn't sound like there was much left of anything they were like before. The races' minds and their knowledge are not the same thing.[/quote]
I concede that. But how do you explain Legion's statement, then? Apart from that, even if a Reaper is more like Control!Shepard, a new entity infused with the values of the original Shepard with no continuity of identity, my point would still stand: it is still implausible that thousands of free Reaper, each infused with the "essence" of a species, would without fail act as they do without being compelled.[/quote]
You only read what you want to read, even if it is not helping your cause. Your own elitist views have obscured you from the reality. When Legion talks about minds, he calls those very same minds programs in his previous remark. But it is absolutely unclear if these minds are uploaded to VIs or AIs.
Shepard: What did you call Sovereign?
Legion: Nazara. That's what the programs within the reaper called themselves. "Souvereign" was a title given by Saren Arterius. Saren and the heretics believed Nazara to be a "supreme ruler". A sovereign.
Shepard: Sovereign was one ship. You're saying there were multiple programs inside it?
Legion: One ship. Many minds. Like the geth. We study your records. Sovereign told you this on Ilios. "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness." A state compelling to the geth. We are a nation, but interdependent. Separation is our weakness.
Did you notice the switch? And what is that weakness? Emotion? Organic thought processes that Nazara deems unworthy? Are these weaknesses filtered out because nothing of the original minds are left? Or is it simply because he is comparing minds. The sentence would be very complex when it would be exact. To me it is nothing but analogy. Over the exact nature of how a reaper mind works is a lot of speculation going on. Some consider that there is a core AI, which allows it to use first person in dialogue and to differentiate it from the harvested "minds" inside.
But again, you are putting effort in things that don't need it. It will not help your cause. Before you know it Harbinger's "Save us!" turns out to be true. Ghehe. And in that case, like mentioned before, I rather pull the plug as an act of mercy.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You deliberately twist Shepard's essence extraction as used in synthesis into being used as a similar extraction method to upload the essence of harvested minds into reaper form.[/quote]
No, I did not. That was a claim made by you. I never said anything about the technicalities of the Synthesis process and Shepard's role in it in this thread.
Yet again, I am not justifying anything. I want to explain. You appear to be under the mistaken assumption that one follows inevitably from the other.
In fact, I think the cycle is something like a cosmic accident. There are no "bad guys". The Catalyst's creators created an AI to search for a means to create lasting peace between organics and synthetics, but made the mistake of not programming it with something akin to Asimov's rules. So when the Catalyst couldn't find a solution, it decided to postpone the problem by initiating the cycle. It turned its creators into the first Reaper, but since the "essence" (whatever that means) of that species was preserved, the Catalyst couldn't expect it to serve the cycle willingly. So it implemented some kind of indoctrination scheme, linking the Reapers' minds to itself, making itself smarter as a side benefit.[/quote]
Asimov's Laws of Robotics are science fiction and it is hard to apply them to complex AI. A critic, David Langford, another SF writer, pointed out (tongue in cheek) that the following laws make more sense:
1). A robot will not harm authorized Government personnel but will terminate intruders with extreme prejudice.
2). A robot will obey the orders of authorized personnel except where such orders conflict with the Third Law.
3). A robot will guard its own existence with lethal antipersonnel weaponry, because a robot is bloody expensive.
Of course in the scientific world there is something called Friendly AI. That too has a lot of critique, because it is most likely impossible to steer the friendliness in either direction. After all, an AI can think for itself and it's a very complex system.
About the rest of that response. Yes, I have seen how you want to absolve the reapers' responsibilities. You even admitted it. That makes you very unreliable in discussions like these. The main difference between you and me is that I rather have Shepard's right of self-determination viewpoint and you prefer the brat's horrific the end justifies the means.
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
And this is the other side of the coin. The reapers do not preserve anything for the good of the organics.[/quote]
They do, for the Catalyst's value of "good". The goal is to preserve organic and synthetic life *as such*, single species are preserved in the best way the Catalyst can think of without compromising its goal. Of course we can't agree with that purpose, but that doesn't change what the Reapers are.[/quote]
The brat's value of good is not important when it is using cyclical genocide to reproduce reapers by using its horrific "ascension through destruction" method. The horrors inflicted upon the reapers' victims are questionable and the "end justifies the means" does not apply to victims, especially given the sheer number of genocides. No matter how hard you try.[/quote]
I am not trying to justify anything. The Catalyst's actions just are. We cannot agree with them but I can also place no absolute moral value on them because the Catalyst is amoral. I wonder why it is so impossible for you to accept that the Catalyst has a completely non-human value system and as such cannot necessarily be judged by human morals. I don't need moral condemnation to stop the Reapers. It's enough that I want galactic civilization to survive.[/quote]
You are denying that in the first sentence of your paragraph above and in the next part you just continue your justification without any empathy, because "The Catalyst's actions just are." Haha. If you have to admit that what the brat and the boys did was so incredible evil that nothing in our own history compares then you would have to face the fact that any co-operation leads to condoning those horrible actions. And you can't have that in your utopia, can you?
It is rather simple: You don't have to understand the ethics of a serial killer who murdered you, your family, your friends and the rest of the planet in the most horrific way imaginable. The morality of the serial killer can never rise above that of its victims. What you are trying to do is tell: "Don't worry. You fail to understand why this serial killer did what he did, but it was in his best interest." It sure wasn't in the interest of those who were slaughtered.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Also, the reapers do not "preserve" life. They kill to reproduce and to stay on top of the food chain.[/quote]
We have three independent sources who claim the opposite, as well as a great deal of plausible speculation:
(1) Legion: A Reaper is "uploaded and conjoined minds". He also explicitly confirms that Reapers are many minds when Shepard asks. This also implies that individual minds can still be perceived if you mentally contact a Reaper.
(2) EDI. A Reaper preserves the "essence" of a species.
(3) The Catalyst itself.
If the Reapers just needed genetic material, they could have that without all the hassle of that complicated harvesting process: take samples and clone the stuff, then bomb the worlds from orbit. Why do they need complete individuals? I can only think of one explanation: they need their minds. There is evidence that those are preserved in some way (see Legion). It's pretty straightforward logic, actually, which doesn't get invalidated by mere assumptions to the contrary. BTW, this is not after-the-fact rationalization. I have said exactly that in debates about the end of ME2 two years ago. The Catalyst has only confirmed it.[/quote]
You are arguing just to win a discussion. Otherwise it would have come to you that they do not need complete bodies. As a matter of fact they prefer it to be blended in a mixer first. Look at ME2 and how the bodies are processed: They are squeezed alive to goo which is pumped through tubes to the reaper reproduction facility. Apparently they like their bodies blended.
Child: We harvest your bodies, your knowledge, your creations. We preserve it to be reborn in the form of a new reaper.
That is what the brat says. Legion talks about programs, which a sentence later he calls minds. But do we know what kinds of programs? VIs or AIs? Knowledge is all the child wants, so VIs would suffice. Again, you are making it very hard for your cause to try to make more of this than really is required. It would work against you when true. I'll come back to that later.
But again, it gets interesting. Just like I argue that Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is mixed into the Crucibles energy for a reason you don't like, you use a similar argument for the extraction of the victims' minds from the goo - as in "Why do they need complete individuals?" and "EDI. A Reaper preserves the 'essence' of a species."
But of course, in my case, you don't like the implications of that. Well, I'll confront you with the implications of your head canon later.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The brat and its boys maintain that top by making sure that the organics and synthetics never pass that top. Synthesis fans also paint a situation in which the brat and the boys do good work when they are interfering with the civilizatons without their victims' consent. The brat is never asked, yet it keeps violating the right of self-determination by any means possible, from intrigue to cyclical genocide.[/quote]
This is just plain bullsh*t. I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm just absolving the Reapers from responsibility to some degree.[/quote]
Ghehe. Yes, you are "just absolving the Reapers from responsibility". You can leave the "to some degree" out. That head canon just solves your needs, because later the reapers will become members of the synthesis utopia, right? And you cannot have any rotten apples there.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
There is no reason to assume that they themselves are indoctrinated.[/quote]
I gave a rather plausible reason in the post you answered. See above.[/quote]
No, you did not. You just gave a rationalization of how you believe the brat's control over the reapers works. I have a more simple one in the reapers' case: Befehl ist Befehl. The reapers' in their infinite wisdom should have known how that works and yet, they did not rise against the brat.[/quote]
(1) There is evidence from three independent sources that the Reaperized species are somehow preserved in the Reapers. Thus, I feel justified in treating this as a fact.
(2) Given that this is so, it is implausible that all Reapers, almost without fail, have followed the Catalyst's commands to do to others what was done to them without being compelled. A free Reaper would have every reason to rebel against its creator, and with no evidence for social pressure to conform among the Reapers, no reason at all not to be able to. Unless there is some kind of indoctriation at work.[/quote]
1). There is evidence from the brat itself, from Shepard in the form of his or her sacrifice, and a device visible in-game which shows the process before a live audience (you) that his "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" is "broken down" and mixed with the Crucible's energy to be "dispersed". And thus this must play an important role in the mental implementation of synthesis. It cannot be physical. After all, we don't see quarians running around on five toe feet and krogan do not lose their hump. Shepard is barely alive, but he or she is still in one piece. Doesn't that help too? Ghehe. Here is your link again. If you claim that your speculations are true then you cannot deny the only one with overwhelming evidence, only because it doesn't suit your needs. Thus, I am certain I can treat this as a fact.
2). Maybe the reapers just have the minds of a predator. Maybe the reapers just believe the brat, like you do. Would be handy and plausible, given their reproduction methods. Whatever the nature of the cause, they must be held responsible for their actions, especially when they claim that they are way smarter than us. They know exactly how humans work. From fear (turning dead bodies against organics) to deceit (indoctrination) and that includes a long list which I have written somewhere before. Those that commit horrors like that, do not deserve to be safeguarded in such a way. If they did it countless of times, chances are that they'll do it again. Besides, the end does not justify the means. Nor are the victims interested in why they have been abused and certainly those who have survived the atrocities are not interested in that.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You see, with all their superior intelligence they were not able to figure out that what they did was wrong. Any sane organism with a bit of empathy would not be able to live with itself.[/quote]
This is a baseless generalization.[/quote]
That's odd. Could you live with yourself once you've discovered that you were responsible for countless genocides? Or could you rationalize it away? I hope not, because lack of empathy is the trademark of the perfect serial killer.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The Illusive Man and Saren were able to see figure that out in the end, even when indoctrinated, and understood the difference between right and wrong. They committed suicide as a result.[/quote]
They commited suicide not because of any moral consideration, but because they realized they were indoctrinated and death was preferable to living as indoctrinated slaves.[/quote]
Think "Benezia" and see above.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If synthesis preaches that synthetics would gain understanding of organics then that empathy would surface on the reapers too. Yet, it didn't happen. They were perfectly able to act as tools to rebuild the civilizations without blinking a green glowing eye. So even then, the reapers and everything within waved all that away.[/quote]
There are several things wrong with this: (1) we don't know how Synthesis changes the Reapers - are they treated as synthetics because their bodies are synthetics, or as organics because their minds have come from organics? If it's the former, btw, then the Reapers gain understanding which their constituent species already had. Did that survive in the Reapers, do they need any of those changes? No idea. (2) Not committing suicide in this situation is no evidence for lack of empathy.[/quote]
We are absolutely sure that the reapers, and even the husks, are effected by synthesis. After all, everyone is glowing green now and they too are glowing green like there is no tomorrow. And even if deny that reapers have no AI mind then we have another version which is supposed to "free" them in a similar way: You claim that indoctrination is the cause of their previous behavior. Guess what? It's not there anymore. They can now think for themselves.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If the control over the reapers is considered indoctrination then so is the control in synthesis by Shepard's essence.[/quote]
Shepard's essence in Synthesis doesn't control anything, it just helps to make certain changes. Also, there is no link between the Catalyst's control of the Reapers and the way the Crucible changes life in Synthesis, thus no reason at all to assume they're similar.[/quote]
If there is no link between Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is" and synthesis then it is of no use and Shepard dies a martyr without a reason.[/quote]
I'm sorry but there IS no link:
(1) The Catalyst indoctrinated the Reapers
(2) Shepards serves as a template for the Synthesis, which physically changes all organic life in the galaxy.
These are statements which are completely independent from each other. There is absolutely nothing to suggest any similarity.
As an aside, you might make that argument with regard to the understanding gained by synthetics through Synthesis, but the big difference is: they want that understanding.[/quote]
You can jump up or down, but there is overwhelming support in that "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is". Shepard's great looks and sexy voice is certainly not what the races are waiting for. Or are you telling me that the krogan now have one heart, because Shepard has one? But of course you *know* it is about his mental capabilities, but that doesn't help your cause, does it? The link is that such an essence only works in the case where it helps your cause. I have discussed this above too. No need to repeat myself.
There are very few who wanted anything related to whatever scheme the brat and the boys dreamed up, BTW. There's only a small elite. Two of the brat's supporters, Saren and TIM, are dead now. Elitist Shepard, who supports a superior race by synthesis, could be the only one left, though. The geth do not belong to the brat's supporters, because the geth wanted to find out things their own way and that's what separated them from the heretics.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If in synthesis the reapers were somehow liberated from their hypothetical enslavement then agony as a result of clarity of their actions in the past should have gotten the better of them. They are supposed to think like organics. Much like EDI's "I am alive." If it is true that those who were uploaded by "ascension through destruction" didn't lose their original minds then these would be in agony as well, because they now are free from the mental shackles after the "liberation" too. Unless of course the reapers' core AI kept indoctrinating them after synthesis. Their lives were destroyed and if it is true that their minds kept their essence they would be caught in a reaper's body for eternity anyway. And thus there would be no liberation possible for them. Forever prisoner and nowhere to go. Yet, no protests were heard after synthesis.[/quote]
If you want to claim that some Reapers committed suicide post-Synthesis because they can't live with what they did, that's perfectly possible. But you're making a pretty big assumption in claiming that this new form of life is, by itself, something bad. I won't claim the opposite, either, but I do insist we do not know and have no reason to assume anything either way.[/quote]
Tss. Make up your mind. It is one way or another. If you do not know then do not fight just to win the discussion.
I claim that every reaper with a bit sanity left would commit suicide. In that case there wouldn't be much of them left, except maybe the sociopathic ones. We can do without.
I promised before that I would get back to you earlier in this post. Here it goes:
But I also claim a second thing. The harvested minds, if what *you* claim is true, those with the essence of the original minds, would end up in a living hell. Everything they once had and loved is unreachable or destroyed. Forever prisoner in a reaper body with nowhere to go. Pulling the plug would be an act of mercy. However, they keep silent. In that case this might be because of indoctrination to force them to obey before synthesis. After synthesis indoctrination again or the often mentioned mind control that fuels the utopia. From whatever angle I look at it, that eternal prison sentence is not the way I would want to end up.
Even if they cried "Save us!" wouldn't it be better to end their eternal hell?
The fact that they do not complain about their horrific situation leads me to believe that only the knowledge was extracted - just like brat says. In that situation nothing is really lost. We can do without those VIs and gain that knowledge our own way. According to the destroy epilogue the civilizations are perfectly able to do without the reapers' help. The reapers are not the solution, they are the problem.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You can try to make the reapers appear as victims of the brat, but that doesn't make it true.[/quote]
It is plausible speculation. Neither you or me can look into the mind of a Reaper, so that's all we have. I do have evidence.[/quote]
What evidence? Speculation that glorifies borderline war crimes which you call plausible? Rationalizations that try to make evil look good? Also, see the paragraph above and in more detail below.[/quote]
All of the above? My theory fits the evidence. Besides, I am trying to explain, not justify. Unsurprisingly for someone whose perspective is so tainted by moral outrage that clear thinking has become impossible, the distinction appears to escape you.[/quote]
Of course you are only speculating, of course you not explaining and of course you are justifying. You even admit it when you say that you are "just absolving the Reapers from responsibility". The end justify the means, right?
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The reapers themselves do not believe they are preserving such essence of the minds of the harvested races.[/quote]
I'll point to Pacifien's argument about Sovereign here. No need to repeat it.[/quote]
Not sure if I already responded to her, but I am talking to you. There's a difference. She doesn't have the same drive as you.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Child: We harvest your bodies, your knowledge, your creations. We preserve it to be reborn in the form of a new reaper.
That doesn't sound like there was much left of anything they were like before. The races' minds and their knowledge are not the same thing.[/quote]
I concede that. But how do you explain Legion's statement, then? Apart from that, even if a Reaper is more like Control!Shepard, a new entity infused with the values of the original Shepard with no continuity of identity, my point would still stand: it is still implausible that thousands of free Reaper, each infused with the "essence" of a species, would without fail act as they do without being compelled.[/quote]
You only read what you want to read, even if it is not helping your cause. Your own elitist views have obscured you from the reality. When Legion talks about minds, he calls those very same minds programs in his previous remark. But it is absolutely unclear if these minds are uploaded to VIs or AIs.
Shepard: What did you call Sovereign?
Legion: Nazara. That's what the programs within the reaper called themselves. "Souvereign" was a title given by Saren Arterius. Saren and the heretics believed Nazara to be a "supreme ruler". A sovereign.
Shepard: Sovereign was one ship. You're saying there were multiple programs inside it?
Legion: One ship. Many minds. Like the geth. We study your records. Sovereign told you this on Ilios. "We are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness." A state compelling to the geth. We are a nation, but interdependent. Separation is our weakness.
Did you notice the switch? And what is that weakness? Emotion? Organic thought processes that Nazara deems unworthy? Are these weaknesses filtered out because nothing of the original minds are left? Or is it simply because he is comparing minds. The sentence would be very complex when it would be exact. To me it is nothing but analogy. Over the exact nature of how a reaper mind works is a lot of speculation going on. Some consider that there is a core AI, which allows it to use first person in dialogue and to differentiate it from the harvested "minds" inside.
But again, you are putting effort in things that don't need it. It will not help your cause. Before you know it Harbinger's "Save us!" turns out to be true. Ghehe. And in that case, like mentioned before, I rather pull the plug as an act of mercy.
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You deliberately twist Shepard's essence extraction as used in synthesis into being used as a similar extraction method to upload the essence of harvested minds into reaper form.[/quote]
No, I did not. That was a claim made by you. I never said anything about the technicalities of the Synthesis process and Shepard's role in it in this thread.
Yet again, I am not justifying anything. I want to explain. You appear to be under the mistaken assumption that one follows inevitably from the other.
In fact, I think the cycle is something like a cosmic accident. There are no "bad guys". The Catalyst's creators created an AI to search for a means to create lasting peace between organics and synthetics, but made the mistake of not programming it with something akin to Asimov's rules. So when the Catalyst couldn't find a solution, it decided to postpone the problem by initiating the cycle. It turned its creators into the first Reaper, but since the "essence" (whatever that means) of that species was preserved, the Catalyst couldn't expect it to serve the cycle willingly. So it implemented some kind of indoctrination scheme, linking the Reapers' minds to itself, making itself smarter as a side benefit.[/quote]
Asimov's Laws of Robotics are science fiction and it is hard to apply them to complex AI. A critic, David Langford, another SF writer, pointed out (tongue in cheek) that the following laws make more sense:
1). A robot will not harm authorized Government personnel but will terminate intruders with extreme prejudice.
2). A robot will obey the orders of authorized personnel except where such orders conflict with the Third Law.
3). A robot will guard its own existence with lethal antipersonnel weaponry, because a robot is bloody expensive.
Of course in the scientific world there is something called Friendly AI. That too has a lot of critique, because it is most likely impossible to steer the friendliness in either direction. After all, an AI can think for itself and it's a very complex system.
About the rest of that response. Yes, I have seen how you want to absolve the reapers' responsibilities. You even admitted it. That makes you very unreliable in discussions like these. The main difference between you and me is that I rather have Shepard's right of self-determination viewpoint and you prefer the brat's horrific the end justifies the means.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 juillet 2012 - 02:21 .
#3155
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 01:45
Shaigunjoe
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AngryFrozenWater wrote...
rabble rabble rabble
You keep referring to the catalyst as the brat and his boys, why?
#3156
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 01:54
Vigilant111
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Shaigunjoe wrote...
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
rabble rabble rabble
You keep referring to the catalyst as the brat and his boys, why?
What else do you prefer? I got a lot of lovelier four lettered words I would like to use... those are probably the most politically correct ones, problem?
#3157
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 01:54
AngryFrozenWater
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Good question.Shaigunjoe wrote...
You keep referring to the catalyst as the brat and his boys, why?AngryFrozenWater wrote...
rabble rabble rabble
Because their cyclical genocides do not deserve any respect. Especially when the brat has chosen to disguise itself as an innocent child to obscure those cyclical atrocities. By doing that it reveals that it is not merely a machine with a faulty AI program, but that it knows exactly how to deceive human beings.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 juillet 2012 - 01:55 .
#3158
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 02:01
RebelReya
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AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Good question.Shaigunjoe wrote...
You keep referring to the catalyst as the brat and his boys, why?AngryFrozenWater wrote...
rabble rabble rabble
Because their cyclical genocides do not deserve any respect. Especially when the brat has chosen to disguise itself as an innocent child to obscure those cyclical atrocities. By doing that it reveals that it is not merely a machine with a faulty AI program, but that it knows exactly how to deceive human beings.
We were calling him Star-Jar for awhile, very applicible nickname as well, if you get the star wars refrance.
Synthesis is genocide. Not utopia.
#3159
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 02:31
Pacifien
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Don't you mean *your* Shepard's right to self-determination viewpoint?AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The main difference between you and me is that I rather have Shepard's right of self-determination viewpoint and you prefer the brat's horrific the end justifies the means.
I mean, some people could roleplay their Shepard to be a right bastard, couldn't they? The kind that would kick puppies and shoot Wrex.
#3160
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 02:31
lillitheris
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Shaigunjoe wrote...
Interesting ideas Mobius. Does this whole 'new stuff that wraps around DNA' make anyone think of epigenetics?
Not really, since epigenetics/Lamarckian evolution is seeming like a very real possibility without any “new DNA”. And it certainly wouldn’t make any sense to refer to it as “new DNA”, the Catalyst would just call it epigenetics.
(Epigenetics, in case you’re wondering, is a field studying the possibility of genetic/hereditary changes that don’t actually show as changes in the genetic sequence itself.)
Modifié par lillitheris, 11 juillet 2012 - 02:34 .
#3161
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 02:39
lillitheris
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Pacifien wrote...
Needs of the many outweigh the needs of a few sort of deal.lillitheris wrote...
I’m mainly horrified by someone thinking it’s OK to do that to others. I’d call it gambling people’s lives, but that’s such an innocuous term. I’m also slightly horrified that someone would think that it’s OK to do even when they know other people would be horrified by it. That should be a pretty clear sign that reconsideration might be in order.
Control is a good argument for keeping everyone alive while trying to ensure the personal liberties of as many people as possible. It puts Shepard only through a technological singularity and keeps the Reapers enslaved. I was talking to someone who has no knowledge of Mass Effect about the whole endings dilemma (one who believes in 100% evils), and he found absolutely no problem with that. Control has its merits, and I could argue for it. I could also argue against it, but I'm not gonna 'cause this is the Synthesis thread. I'll argue for and against every single ending, so I keep it separate.
Yes. None of the options is completely without some kind of trampling of rights.
However, Control is very relevant to Synthesis for one simple reason: it leaves Synthesis as an option at a later time. Even if you don’t know that in Control the Citadel isn’t destroyed, you can easily surmise that with the Reapers left alive and access to all their data — those guys who built the Citadel — you can reproduce the event. Therefore, choosing Control is the better option is it gives you time to study and vote on the change(s) — perhaps even refine the process to a degree where it can be made selective.
#3162
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 02:41
lillitheris
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Ops, duplicate.
Modifié par lillitheris, 11 juillet 2012 - 02:43 .
#3163
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 02:46
Slakky
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Where are we told that Starjar chooses its own representation? I always assumed this was like the geth consensus mission where Shepard's subconscious chooses the representation.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Good question.Shaigunjoe wrote...
You keep referring to the catalyst as the brat and his boys, why?AngryFrozenWater wrote...
rabble rabble rabble
Because their cyclical genocides do not deserve any respect. Especially when the brat has chosen to disguise itself as an innocent child to obscure those cyclical atrocities. By doing that it reveals that it is not merely a machine with a faulty AI program, but that it knows exactly how to deceive human beings.
Also all these comparisons to serial killers and moral censure...do you believe Starjar capable of moral decision making or compartmentalization? What evidence do you see in game to support this?
#3164
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 02:51
Pacifien
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There's two ways to be held accountable for one's actions. One is to spend the rest of your life trying to atone for your mistake. The other is to be shot in the head because people think what you did was so evil, you don't deserve a second chance.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
2). Maybe the reapers just have the minds of a predator. Maybe the reapers just believe the brat, like you do. Would be handy and plausible, given their reproduction methods. Whatever the nature of the cause, they must be held responsible for their actions,
With Synthesis, you can take the Epilogue at face value that the Reapers are atoning for their actions. I know some people say that's only possible through mind control. I've already gone over the concept of being forced to understand and whether false empathy is valid.
If you don't want to take the Epilogue at face value (and I don't), then the nature of each Reaper likely depends on the nature of each civilization from which they were created. Use the variety of the advanced spacefaring civilizations of the current cycle as a baseline if you must and you run the gamut of the rigid Turian hierarchy to the fast-paced innovative Salarians to the peaceful Asari. The only thing that might hold them together is, again, the promise of the understanding brought forth by the simultaneous Synthesis.
#3165
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 03:00
Kel Riever
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Synthesis is exactly no better than any of the other endings because the whole premise of synthetics and organics always in conflict is SO STUPID and happens before any 'choice is offered. Let's not mention a total fallacy as proven by the same game the endings were written on.
In fact, you could argue Synthesis is the absolutely most stupid ending, because it is the one that means you have to accept the abomination of that idiot premise the most. Plus you need the heaviest dose of Space Magic to accompany it. You might as well start injecting bath salts, running out in the streets and biting people's faces off. It is that delusional.
In fact, you could argue Synthesis is the absolutely most stupid ending, because it is the one that means you have to accept the abomination of that idiot premise the most. Plus you need the heaviest dose of Space Magic to accompany it. You might as well start injecting bath salts, running out in the streets and biting people's faces off. It is that delusional.
#3166
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 03:10
AngryFrozenWater
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I think that is a cheap cop out. If how you role play cannot be discussed then this whole thread is useless. But of course you know that. So why bring that up as an argument to silence me? Don't you like what I say?Pacifien wrote...
Don't you mean *your* Shepard's right to self-determination viewpoint?AngryFrozenWater wrote...
The main difference between you and me is that I rather have Shepard's right of self-determination viewpoint and you prefer the brat's horrific the end justifies the means.
I mean, some people could roleplay their Shepard to be a right bastard, couldn't they? The kind that would kick puppies and shoot Wrex.
If those who defend synthesis strongly would really role play then they wouldn't have to rationalize synthesis is not an elitist choice. There was a guy in this thread who just said he was/played (hard to tell) an elitist and thus he would violate the right of self-determination. That's fine by me. I think I even mentioned that. There are lots of responses on this forum that I do not think require any attention because of the choices they made. But if people claim to add rationale and ethics to their choice then it gets interesting. And then it makes sense to respond.
I have no problems with playing a renegade. And guess what? I even shoot foes. Ghehe. However, considering the paragraph above, I do have problems with defending cyclical atrocities and finding rationalizations to make the brat and his boys look good. That's a bridge too far. As a matter of fact, I have written several times before that I think all of the ending choices are horrific. Especially when all these either condone or require atrocities.
#3167
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 03:39
Chashan
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RebelReya wrote...
Synthesis is genocide. Not utopia.
Calling it dystopia would be more appropriate if you view it with the negative connotations in mind that have been buzzing around for a while now: homogenisation of everyone, cessation of 'classic' organic life, mental rewrite and the like.
It is pretty obvious though that was not the intention behind it. It is supposed to be utopeia, the never-land of the good sort, that much if nothing else it has to be credited for.
And as I said before: viewing the scenario as what the Reapers ultimately strove towards since their inception and wondering about whether their actions can actually be redeemed in that light or not makes for a more interesting discussion at the end.
For the record: even with that stated, the Reapers do not have my approval for it.
Modifié par Chashan, 11 juillet 2012 - 03:40 .
#3168
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 04:12
Ieldra
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"Galactic peace" is only mentioned if you cured the genophage. If you didn't, EDI says that some are slow to see the benefits. They'll eventually come around, but there's a scar on this utopia. Which is why I prefer that version. I want the prospect of ascension, but I don't want an utopia. I guess if you want, you can take the "utopic currents" and just accept them without thinking further about things, but otherwise, all I can see is a *generally* bright future, not a *universally* bright one. There can't be, at least not without that brainwashing the anti-Synthesis faction is so fond of and which I think is definitely not included in the theme. There are too many problems with the Reapers being integrated into civilization, and new horrors along with new wonders. As for the immortality, that's a prospect for the future, it may or may not happen.Chashan wrote...
Other than that, I find arguments trying to downplay the rather clear utopic currents that permeate Green somewhat dishonest: you "save" the Reaper's rank-and-file (I would have preferred "silent deaths" on screen there), you "upgrade" everyone physically and possibly mentally as well, you do achieve universal peace - it is implied all over the place - and finally appear to unearth the fountain of youth as well while you are at it.
Denying that this very closely resembles the utopia of more idealistic make
(not the original, more questionable concept of Thomas More) seems absurd to me.
Bioware may have laid it on thick with the happiness, but that applies to all endings. As long as you made all the "good" choices, there is a bright future without a visible scar in all of the endings. Synthesis may be unique in benefitting from not making all the "good" decisions.
#3169
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 04:14
AngryFrozenWater
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In the geth consensus Legion has chosen how things look. Just to make Shepard comfortable in that for humans alien environment. Legion is very clear about that. Shepard even jokes about the weapon.Slakky wrote...
Where are we told that Starjar chooses its own representation? I always assumed this was like the geth consensus mission where Shepard's subconscious chooses the representation.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Good question.Shaigunjoe wrote...
You keep referring to the catalyst as the brat and his boys, why?AngryFrozenWater wrote...
rabble rabble rabble
Because their cyclical genocides do not deserve any respect. Especially when the brat has chosen to disguise itself as an innocent child to obscure those cyclical atrocities. By doing that it reveals that it is not merely a machine with a faulty AI program, but that it knows exactly how to deceive human beings.
Also all these comparisons to serial killers and moral censure...do you believe Starjar capable of moral decision making or compartmentalization? What evidence do you see in game to support this?
In the case of the brat, it has chosen how it looks. Nothing indicates anything closely resembling subconscious and I do not believe in the indoctrination theory.
About compartmentalization. Can you you please explain what you mean by that? I looked it up in the dictionary and now I need to guess. So, I thought I better ask.
About moral decision making. I do think the brat and its boys are able to, because they do understand in great detail what drives organics and they use those traits in their war against organics. That makes them untrustworthy and certainly not innocent. I'll explain below.
First we have the issue of the brat being innocent, because it was just a machine performing its duty. That is not how AIs work. The brat and its boys are not VIs which simply execute a set of pre-programmed functions. AIs are smart and the brat and the reapers are supposed to be the most advanced life forms in our galaxy. They are true AIs, and just as any advanced organic race, are self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought. They learn and they adapt. Because of that they can and must be held responsible for their actions. And what's more they know exactly how the emotion and ethics of organics work.
Another one is that the brat and the reapers cannot be held to the same standards as "we" have because they are more advanced. That's nonsense. If they were, for an example, a Type III Civilization they would have just ignored "us", just as "we" ignore ants. If they interfere with "us" then they will be judged from the perspective of the victims and not the other way around, because there is no room for the end justifies the means.
They have a long history of betrayal (up to their own creators), intrigue (Saren, TIM, turning synthetics against organics), deceit (indoctrination and using a disguise as an innocent child when it committed the most atrocities of any being in our galaxy in aeons), enslavement (indoctrinating organisms to cleanup a cycle to remove any traces so the next cycle has no suspicion - these slaves are left to rot after their job is done), cyclical genocide (of countless races which they deemed worthless to build reapers from), scare tactics (by turning the dead bodies of the races into husks to fight against those same races), harvesting civilizations (by first sowing mass relays and technology to make sure that their future victims "will develop along the paths [they] desire"), eugenics (collectors, failed synthesis attempts), and last but not least lies (by using the hypothetical threat as a rationalization for their cyclical maniacal genocidal "ascension through destruction" reproduction method to keep them on top of the food chain). Much like a serial killer they show no emotion, nor remorse, even though they are perfectly able to use the concept of fear. The power of the brat and the boys systematically violates the right of self-determination by any means they can dream up.
That's untrustworthy enough for me.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:16 .
#3170
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 04:18
Taboo
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Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed. I'd rather think the opposite would happen, and that's what EDI means when she talks about an advancement to a state of being we can't imagine now.Pacifien wrote...
I read a lot of books about technological singularities, so no, I don't feel that WILL happen.Taboo-XX wrote...
You WILL stagnate eventually. That WILL happen.
That isn't what I mean. There IS a limit to what you can reach. There isn't a limitless...growth curve so to speak. Eventually it will level out.
You can't just keep going. Eventually, once you reach a certain point, you cannot advance past said point.
What I mean is a high level Kardenshev Scale Civilization. Once you're going in between dimensions and time travelling you're pretty much done.
The Time Lords cannot advance further. Yes?
#3171
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 04:37
Tigerman123
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Does it matter that there's a limit to the amount of scientific data that can be accumulated, most people presently don't have the aptitude or interest to care about science, it's irrelevant to them except as a source of new gizmos or medicines. It's not as if the 99.9% of people who don't have graduate degrees in physics suffered an existential crisis because they didn't understand the mathematics behind the Higgs boson when the CERN results were announced , they've got other interests
There'll always be art (and sex)
There'll always be art (and sex)
#3172
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 04:42
Eluril
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Ieldra2 wrote...
"Galactic peace" is only mentioned if you cured the genophage. If you didn't, EDI says that some are slow to see the benefits. They'll eventually come around, but there's a scar on this utopia. Which is why I prefer that version. I want the prospect of ascension, but I don't want an utopia. I guess if you want, you can take the "utopic currents" and just accept them without thinking further about things, but otherwise, all I can see is a *generally* bright future, not a *universally* bright one. There can't be, at least not without that brainwashing the anti-Synthesis faction is so fond of and which I think is definitely not included in the theme. There are too many problems with the Reapers being integrated into civilization, and new horrors along with new wonders. As for the immortality, that's a prospect for the future, it may or may not happen.Chashan wrote...
Other than that, I find arguments trying to downplay the rather clear utopic currents that permeate Green somewhat dishonest: you "save" the Reaper's rank-and-file (I would have preferred "silent deaths" on screen there), you "upgrade" everyone physically and possibly mentally as well, you do achieve universal peace - it is implied all over the place - and finally appear to unearth the fountain of youth as well while you are at it.
Denying that this very closely resembles the utopia of more idealistic make
(not the original, more questionable concept of Thomas More) seems absurd to me.
Bioware may have laid it on thick with the happiness, but that applies to all endings. As long as you made all the "good" choices, there is a bright future without a visible scar in all of the endings. Synthesis may be unique in benefitting from not making all the "good" decisions.
Good post. When I played my character through and chose synthesis it was my super renegade character who had faked the genophage. I really liked that the ending was "tempered" by some of my choices earlier so that it wasn't perfect.
I think of synthesis as opening up the possibilty for true utopia but the "reality" to me is that it elevates galactic society to the same level of optimism as the canon Star Trek universe. Many of the problems that we've faced before are irrelevant but that does not mean there can't be new problems or that dilemmas are a thing of the past.
Modifié par Eluril, 11 juillet 2012 - 04:44 .
#3173
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 05:03
AngryFrozenWater
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No... You just like the idea of synthesis as an utopia. But you do not like to be called an elitsist. You also do not like the idea that you surrender your allies to the brat and the boys. So, the only thing left is to rationalize all the bad side effects away one by one. And your latest holy grail is called "absolve the Reapers from responsibility". Next week you will have found a new rationalization.Ieldra2 wrote...
I think nobody here is trying to justify the cycle. I'm just attempting to absolve the Reapers from responsibility to some degree. As I see it, the cycle is a sort of cosmic accident caused by a buggy super-intelligent AI whose creators forgot to give it something akin to Asimov's laws of robotics. There are no "bad guys". It's just "sh*t happens" on a cosmic scale.
#3174
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 05:09
Taboo
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Eluril wrote...
When I played my character through and chose synthesis it was my super renegade character who had faked the genophage. I really liked that the ending was "tempered" by some of my choices earlier so that it wasn't perfect.
I think of synthesis as opening up the possibilty for true utopia but the "reality" to me is that it elevates galactic society to the same level of optimism as the canon Star Trek universe. Many of the problems that we've faced before are irrelevant but that does not mean there can't be new problems or that dilemmas are a thing of the past.
Uh. Everyone is now one species. You "understand" the other person. You "understand" Synthetics. You have created the blue prints for a utopia, whether you like it or not.
On the other hand, if you wish to refuse that notion, you have done nothing but temper people towards conflict.
Oh, and art? Yeah, that comes from not understanding things. Pay attention to what Mordin says in ME2. If I was suddenly enlightened, what need have I for painting? If I no longer feel things that tie me to this mortal coil what purpose do I have for Synthesis?
Sex? Mere addition paradox. You're ****ed either way. Bahahahaha.
#3175
Posté 11 juillet 2012 - 05:24
Pacifien
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I didn't bring it up to silence you. I brought it up to remind you that you are arguing from your point of view. I also wrote another post, one you didn't resond to. Did you not like what I had to say there?AngryFrozenWater wrote...
So why bring that up as an argument to silence me? Don't you like what I say?
War's atrocious. That's why so many people who live through it suffer Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You could either give BioWare credit that they didn't sugar coat that simple fact about war, or you can blame BioWare that they didn't depict war in an easier to swallow pill.AngryFrozenWater wrote...
As a matter of fact, I have written several times before that I think all of the ending choices are horrific. Especially when all these either condone or require atrocities.
Try as they might, BioWare couldn't ever make anyone feel the consequences of their actions until they started to force the issue in Mass Effect 3. And I find it interesting that when given a no-win scenario, the choice is to sort of pout about it. I don't know, maybe you picked Destroy, in which case, that's fine.
