9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Uh. Everyone is now one species. You "understand" the other person. You "understand" Synthetics.

So....to understand someone it is now necessary to be of the same species? Since when? I see different species in the epilogues. As different from each other as they were before.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:13 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Pacifien wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
So why bring that up as an argument to silence me? Don't you like what I say?

I didn't bring it up to silence you. I brought it up to remind you that you are arguing from your point of view. I also wrote another post, one you didn't resond to. Did you not like what I had to say there?

AngryFrozenWater wrote... 
As a matter of fact, I have written several times before that I think all of the ending choices are horrific. Especially when all these either condone or require atrocities.

War's atrocious. That's why so many people who live through it suffer Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. You could either give BioWare credit that they didn't sugar coat that simple fact about war, or you can blame BioWare that they didn't depict war in an easier to swallow pill.

Try as they might, BioWare couldn't ever make anyone feel the consequences of their actions until they started to force the issue in Mass Effect 3. And I find it interesting that when given a no-win scenario, the choice is to sort of pout about it. I don't know, maybe you picked Destroy, in which case, that's fine.

Sigh. Not silencing? You could have fooled me. I am not checking this thread daily and do like to respond to people who address me. Sometimes I forget a post. That's not intentional. But whatever floats your boat. Silly aggression. I'll have a look at it.

War is atrocious. That's why we do something about it. The fun part is that in a game we can do something about that. Except in this game. In this game we have to select an option which either condones and/or requires atrocities. Doesn't sound like fun to me.

Like I have written before, I don't like any of the choices. I also consider the synthetics threat to be hypthetical which only serves as a rationalization for the reapers' "ascension through destruction" reproduction method. As such the 3 options are solutions to a non-existent problem and thus the brat and its boys are not part of the solution. They are the problem. So I have to select destroy. Sorry geth, but BW does not leave me any other way out.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 juillet 2012 - 05:47 .

[Ieldra]

@AngryFrozenWater:
*You* are accusing *me* of debating just to win the discussion? Wow, I can only call that the embodiment of self-deception. Who was it who started throwing around accusations of anything bad you can think of, Godwinizing this thread sometimes several times per page, and all for no better reason than to emotionally manipulate people into stopping to think and make emotional judgments based on unreflected associations? What I see when I read your posts is a person whose misplaced moral outrage has totally overrun her reason.

If you can't see how it's possible to see the need to stop someone or something without any need for moral condemnation then that's not my problem.

As for your other points:
I do not think you have invalidated my point: there are several independent statements about the nature of the Reapers, each claiming that core aspects of the Reaperized civilizations have been preserved. Legion says it's "billions of organic minds", EDI says it's the "essence" of a species, the Catalyst says it's knowledge and creations but also says it has ascended those species. It also says it controls the Reapers (as opposed to "leads them"). Sovereign says the Reapers are "each a nation", Harbinger says "WE are Harbinger".
So.....tell me why ALL the Reapers, almost without fail, follow the Catalyst, if the Reaperized species were as different as those of the current cycle, say, krogan and asari? That's *completely* implausible. Yet they do. So...either all those claims of having preserved the minds/the essence of a species and ascended it are false, or there is some mental influence at work. Given that the information about the nature of the Reapers comes from different sources, which do you think it more likely?

As for "they must be held responsible" - If they were controlled by the Catalyst....why? You still haven't made a good case for that.

Also you're making a lot of assumptions about how the existence as a Reaper feels. You're telling me to "Make up my mind"? What insanity is this? I have said I don't know, and neither do you. The claim that existence as a Reaper is "a living hell" has zero weight as an argument. The opposite would also have zero weight, which is why I don't make it. The same with your claim "they wouldn't be able to live with themselves"? Why the hell not? That feels like a particularly immature attitude to me, and anyway they are *different* from you!!!!!!!! I can't look into a Reaper's mind and neither can you. Perhaps....they'll find it more satisfactory to be constructive about things and help the galaxy rebuild instead of killing themselves over things they can't change anymore. At least, I'd find that more plausible for life forms smarter than I am, and less enslaved by their emotions.

As for your last post: yes, I find a scenario without a clear "bad guy" *WAY* more interesting, because it makes you focus on problems to solve and mysteries to decipher instead of "killing the bad guy". Stories like that may stroke your moral vanity, but if that's the sole focus they're boring. All the posts on these forums talking about who's good and who's evil, who can't get away with X because, well, it just shouldn't be, I'm so fed up with it all. I'm fed up with people who appear unable to think in any other terms. If you don't like that, that's not my problem.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:21 .

[Chashan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Chashan wrote...
Other than that, I find arguments trying to downplay the rather clear utopic currents that permeate Green somewhat dishonest: you "save" the Reaper's rank-and-file (I would have preferred "silent deaths" on screen there), you "upgrade" everyone physically and possibly mentally as well, you do achieve universal peace - it is implied all over the place - and finally appear to unearth the fountain of youth as well while you are at it.

Denying that this very closely resembles the utopia of more idealistic make 
(not the original, more questionable concept of Thomas More) seems absurd to me.

"Galactic peace" is only mentioned if you cured the genophage. If you didn't, EDI says that some are slow to see the benefits. They'll eventually come around, but there's a scar on this utopia. Which is why I prefer that version. I want the prospect of ascension, but I don't want an utopia. I guess if you want, you can take the "utopic currents" and just accept them without thinking further about things, but otherwise, all I can see is a *generally* bright future, not a *universally* bright one. There can't be, at least not without that brainwashing the anti-Synthesis faction is so fond of and which I think is definitely not included in the theme. There are too many problems with the Reapers being integrated into civilization, and new horrors along with new wonders. As for the immortality, that's a prospect for the future, it may or may not happen.

Bioware may have laid it on thick with the happiness, but that applies to all endings. As long as you made all the "good" choices, there is a bright future without a visible scar in all of the endings. Synthesis may be unique in benefitting from not making all the "good" decisions.

Which is your subjective opinion on it. I hope you realise that your thinking of your specific "renegade-y" playthrough as optimal is somewhat backwards in that reasoning.

I could get into how I am fundamentally opposed to the very idea of the genophage, but I will just comment on something else you mentioned concerning that:
You pointed out how you would not allow others to have as many children as they wished; far as I see it, family planning is every individual's personal liberty, and the world still is a large enough place for everyone. 
Besides, your backing of it rests upon that isolated number of "1000 offspring per birth" for the krogan. Did you consider that, all too likely, mortality-rate among krogan infants is already quite high, and that krogan lifestyle makes for not many krogan living out their full life expectancy?*

Eluril wrote...

Good post. When I played my character through and chose synthesis it was my super renegade character who had faked the genophage. I really liked that the ending was "tempered" by some of my choices earlier so that it wasn't perfect.

I think of synthesis as opening up the possibilty for true utopia but the "reality" to me is that it elevates galactic society to the same level of optimism as the canon Star Trek universe. Many of the problems that we've faced before are irrelevant but that does not mean there can't be new problems or that dilemmas are a thing of the past.

From my vantage, I think of synthesis as a sort of "redemption" for your character, weighing out the less galant actions by his/her sacrifice.
And you, too, admit that "synthesis" very clearly substitutes one large step closer to heaven at the end of the day.

Others might deride it "free-out-of-jail"-card, but I can accept that premise.



*PS: I could be mistaken, but did you not also speculate on how synthesis cured the genophage for you if you did not?

Modifié par Chashan, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:00 .

[Ieldra]

@Chashan:
What I meant about Synthesis is not making all the "good" decisions may result in a less stereotypical "sunshine and rainbows" scenario. It's easy for me to do because I think in roleplaying terms, sabotaging the cure is the only sane decision.

BTW, that wasn't a particularly Renegade-y playthrough. Sabotaging the cure is the only "bad" decision I make in my personal canon playthroughs. Perhaps I'll reconsider from a metagaming viewpoint, since the epilogue tells me curing it will turn out well, but I'm fundamentally opposed to the idea that all can have as many children as they want if that does damage on a bigger scale. That also applies to present-day Earth but that's a different question.

Edit:
It isn't speculation that Synthesis eventually cures the genophage. You get a different slide with a krogan child even if you sabotaged the cure, with EDI telling that even those "shattered cultures" will eventually live free of poverty and disease (!). What I like about this scenario is that there is no mention of galactic peace.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:10 .

[lillitheris]

Chashan wrote...

You pointed out how you would not allow others to have as many children as they wished; far as I see it, family planning is every individual's personal liberty, and the world still is a large enough place for everyone.

It isn’t, actually. We need a significant amount of additional energy capacity* before we start approaching 8 billion on this planet, and that’s talking survival, not western lifestyle for everyone. Then, the problem becomes one of distributing resources and especially food (and water) production.

So, you know. The galaxy might be large enough a place.

* Though stuff like covering the Sahara in solar arrays would help.

…

I’ve got no problem with Ieldra2 or anyone else’s headcanon Synthesis…I just wish it was admitted as such.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You get a different slide with a krogan child even if you sabotaged the cure, with EDI telling that even those "shattered cultures" will eventually live free of poverty and disease (!). What I like about this scenario is that there is no mention of galactic peace.

What about computer viruses?

[Eluril]

lillitheris wrote...

Chashan wrote...

You pointed out how you would not allow others to have as many children as they wished; far as I see it, family planning is every individual's personal liberty, and the world still is a large enough place for everyone.

It isn’t, actually. We need a significant amount of additional energy capacity* before we start approaching 8 billion on this planet, and that’s talking survival, not western lifestyle for everyone. Then, the problem becomes one of distributing resources and especially food (and water) production.

So, you know. The galaxy might be large enough a place.

* Though stuff like covering the Sahara in solar arrays would help.

…

I’ve got no problem with Ieldra2 or anyone else’s headcanon Synthesis…I just wish it was admitted as such.

The Rational Optimist by Matt Ridley. Read it now.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Pacifien wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
2). Maybe the reapers just have the minds of a predator. Maybe the reapers just believe the brat, like you do. Would be handy and plausible, given their reproduction methods. Whatever the nature of the cause, they must be held responsible for their actions,

There's two ways to be held accountable for one's actions. One is to spend the rest of your life trying to atone for your mistake. The other is to be shot in the head because people think what you did was so evil, you don't deserve a second chance.

With Synthesis, you can take the Epilogue at face value that the Reapers are atoning for their actions. I know some people say that's only possible through mind control. I've already gone over the concept of being forced to understand and whether false empathy is valid.

If you don't want to take the Epilogue at face value (and I don't), then the nature of each Reaper likely depends on the nature of each civilization from which they were created. Use the variety of the advanced spacefaring civilizations of the current cycle as a baseline if you must and you run the gamut of the rigid Turian hierarchy to the fast-paced innovative Salarians to the peaceful Asari. The only thing that might hold them together is, again, the promise of the understanding brought forth by the simultaneous Synthesis.

I hope this is the one I missed responding too.

Pacifien wrote...

Synthesis isn't about making everyone the same, it's about giving everyone the ability to understand. You don't have to agree, you just have to understand and feel where the other person is coming from.

I do not need to understand where that other person is coming from. I not only disagree with that whole first sentence, it makes me shiver.

The right of self-determination, racial mutilation and mind control are some of the things spinning through my mind when I make the decision. Lack of empathy and disgust spin through my mind when thinking about that option. I am not interested in its benefits. A forced utopia is an oxymoron.

People pick what they like from the game. Everything is kept vague. Or people just like to see what they want. That's how it goes. I base the decision on the in-game facts presented to me this way. If people feel that they do not want to talk about their motivations then they should not post on the forums. Or do you wish everyone praises one of the options, so everyone agrees?

If I have to take the epilogue for what it is then I see the brat being replaced in control (in close-up), the brat being destroyed in destroy (in close-up) and I see the brat from a distance watching Shepard jump into the synthesis beam and the brat not being destroyed. Before you know it people may come to the conclusion that synthesis is a submission to the brat and the boys.

And we can't have that, can we? Not in this thread. In this thread we only have to praise atrocities. Because, you know, it is not "nice" to disagree. It is not "nice" to point out the rationalizations made. It is not "nice" to touch someone's favorite head canon glorified in a dozen threads.

Edit: 3 hours later I made a clarification in a sentence to prevent it from being explained in two ways.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 juillet 2012 - 09:47 .

[lillitheris]

Eluril wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Chashan wrote...

You pointed out how you would not allow others to have as many children as they wished; far as I see it, family planning is every individual's personal liberty, and the world still is a large enough place for everyone.

It isn’t, actually. We need a significant amount of additional energy capacity* before we start approaching 8 billion on this planet, and that’s talking survival, not western lifestyle for everyone. Then, the problem becomes one of distributing resources and especially food (and water) production.

So, you know. The galaxy might be large enough a place.

* Though stuff like covering the Sahara in solar arrays would help.

The Rational Optimist by Matt Ridley. Read it now.

Optimism is good, but it needs to be grounded in realism. You can’t rely on the planet magically supporting 10 billion people. You need to work for it.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 Make some room for shameless self-promotion...

Picking Up the Pieces.
The war with the Reapers - the struggle for survival and freedom that many galaxies have fought, in vain, for thousands of years - is finally won. Now, every survivor is left with the difficult task of rebuilding their homes and moving on with their lives... in more ways than one.
Leads: Commander Shepard, Jack, Kaidan Alenko, James Vega, EDI, Liara T'Soni, [Squadmate #6 TBA].

Coming soon to FF.net.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:43 .

[Vigilant111]

@Ieldra2: yes they are preserved, but they are also REAPERISED, and no one should undergo such a painful process, it does not matter what the reapers thought, or whether they are moral or immoral or amoral, life in each of the cycles had to endure great hardship, and they did not become better, they became dead, this is what you do not get

You keep saying preserve preserve, these stuff that are preserved are no better than a piece of fingernail or hair, the value of them on a galactic scale is infinitely small.

The essence of the species does not simply just reside in some individual's minds - note that the reapers only ascend the "worthy" ones, and I am not even going to discuss how exactly the reapers decide who the worthy one were.

It is the ethos that is the essence of the species, people are stimulated by their home worlds, stimulated by the nature of their environment, the weather, the landscape, the people, families and friends. Inspiration, reminiscence, romance can only happen when they are alive in their own form. When you are ascended into the reaper form, all that was taken away from you, what u see now is bloodshed, pain and suffering when the Catalyst decides to harvest...very ill-considered ways to "maintain peace", for an advanced AI

BTW, you also need to understand that it is NOT peace that the Catalyst is concerned about, it is the ... actually I don't really know what the Catalyst is concerned about, the creators of the Catalyst is only concerned about their own survival, maybe even dominance, but they decided to name it "peace".

Peace no longer exists when the reapers have murdered everyone, no peace exists in a vacuum. "Ascending" the consciousness of everyone leaving the bodies behind so that no war could start? this is no different than a prison!

How about just simply directing the fire to anyone that is causing trouble? u cannot just punish everyone else cos the Quarians made the Geth. If the Catalyst is capable of making decisions about how many ways to kill a human, I think it can certainly easily figure out what itself is doing is impractical and can cause all sort of repercussions such as people like Shepard not being able to trust it, simply put the Catalyst is inept

So, the Catalyst is either stupid, or just damned evil, take your pick

[Eluril]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Uh. Everyone is now one species. You "understand" the other person. You "understand" Synthetics.

So....to understand someone it is now necessary to be of the same species? Since when? I see different species in the epilogues. As different from each other as they were before.

I'm curious, when I as an individual connect to the internet, do I become less of an individual? The quicker and more complete sharing of information with other minds I would argue makes me MORE of an individual. This is my interpretation as an analogy of what happens in synthesis.

Modifié par Eluril, 11 juillet 2012 - 06:50 .

[Eluril]

lillitheris wrote...

Eluril wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Chashan wrote...

You pointed out how you would not allow others to have as many children as they wished; far as I see it, family planning is every individual's personal liberty, and the world still is a large enough place for everyone.

It isn’t, actually. We need a significant amount of additional energy capacity* before we start approaching 8 billion on this planet, and that’s talking survival, not western lifestyle for everyone. Then, the problem becomes one of distributing resources and especially food (and water) production.

So, you know. The galaxy might be large enough a place.

* Though stuff like covering the Sahara in solar arrays would help.

The Rational Optimist by Matt Ridley. Read it now.

Optimism is good, but it needs to be grounded in realism. You can’t rely on the planet magically supporting 10 billion people. You need to work for it.

That's why it is the RATIONAL Optimist.

[Slakky]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

In the geth consensus Legion has chosen how things look. Just to make Shepard comfortable in that for humans alien environment. Legion is very clear about that. Shepard even jokes about the weapon.

Shep:  Wasn't that footage from the past?  Why are the quarians masked?
Legion:  You process our memories by using your own.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

About compartmentalization. Can you you please explain what you mean by that? I looked it up in the dictionary and now I need to guess. So, I thought I better ask.

Immoral decision making implies cognitive dissonance implies compartmentalization.  You're saying that Starjar is acting on one set of morals when it talks to Shepard and another the rest of the time when it's just reaping everyone.  I still don't see any evidence that it ever follows morals of any kind.  It just has the formal requirement to preserve the balance between organics and synthetics.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

First we have the issue of the brat being innocent, because it was just a machine performing its duty. That is not how AIs work. The brat and its boys are not VIs which simply execute a set of pre-programmed functions. AIs are smart and the brat and the reapers are supposed to be the most advanced life forms in our galaxy. They are true AIs, and just as any advanced organic race, are self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought. They learn and they adapt. Because of that they can and must be held responsible for their actions. And what's more they know exactly how the emotion and ethics of organics work.

Understanding doesn't imply agreement or empathy.  I understand the values of lots of people who I write off as mentally ill; I'm not going to operate on them.

Also isn't this the same robot who doesn't understand how preserving the knowledge and experience of organics without preserving their self-determination is a vacuous solution?  The whole point of that dialog is to establish that it isn't capable of empathetic reasoning.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I do not think you have invalidated my point: there are several independent statements about the nature of the Reapers, each claiming that core aspects of the Reaperized civilizations have been preserved. Legion says it's "billions of organic minds", EDI says it's the "essence" of a species, the Catalyst says it's knowledge and creations but also says it has ascended those species. It also says it controls the Reapers (as opposed to "leads them"). Sovereign says the Reapers are "each a nation", Harbinger says "WE are Harbinger".
So.....tell me why ALL the Reapers, almost without fail, follow the Catalyst, if the Reaperized species were as different as those of the current cycle, say, krogan and asari? That's *completely* implausible. Yet they do. So...either all those claims of having preserved the minds/the essence of a species and ascended it are false, or there is some mental influence at work. Given that the information about the nature of the Reapers comes from different sources, which do you think it more likely?

That's fine by me. I have already answered you. I have even examined the consequences of that, with or without that speculation.

I have also told you that there is overwhelming evidence of Shepard's essence being mixed in the Crucible's beam. Again, the brat tells what happends with that essence, there is an entire beam devoted to its function and we have Shepard sacrificing his/her live for it. So I have to consider that in-game fact. You don't like the implications of that of course. But that is not my problem. Case closed.

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for "they must be held responsible" - If they were controlled by the Catalyst....why? You still haven't made a good case for that.

I have already answered you that one. If you are interested, read that answer.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also you're making a lot of assumptions about how the existence as a Reaper feels. You're telling me to "Make up my mind"? What insanity is this? I have said I don't know, and neither do you. The claim that existence as a Reaper is "a living hell" has zero weight as an argument. The opposite would also have zero weight, which is why I don't make it. The same with your claim "they wouldn't be able to live with themselves"? Why the hell not? That feels like a particularly immature attitude to me, and anyway they are *different* from you!!!!!!!! I can't look into a Reaper's mind and neither can you. Perhaps....they'll find it more satisfactory to be constructive about things and help the galaxy rebuild instead of killing themselves over things they can't change anymore. At least, I'd find that more plausible for life forms smarter than I am, and less enslaved by their emotions.

It's not the reaper's existence that has a living hell. I have even split it up for you in two cases. The reaper's case and those harvested within the reaper. To the former, I think it was also in one of your threads, there was supposed to be a core AI. I try to pay attention to what you guys dream up. That allows it to refer to it in first person and allow control over the harvested minds. Then there is the scond case: The one of the harvested minds. You even responded in great detail about those in the first quote of this post. I made the point of the eternal prison sentence in their case. Nowhere to go. And so on. Now try to read the original post again. I have really taken a lot of care to explain this to you several times over.

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for your last post: yes, I find a scenario without a clear "bad guy" *WAY* more interesting, because it makes you focus on problems to solve and mysteries to decipher instead of "killing the bad guy". Stories like that may stroke your moral vanity, but if that's the sole focus they're boring. All the posts on these forums talking about who's good and who's evil, who can't get away with X because, well, it just shouldn't be, I'm so fed up with it all. I'm fed up with people who appear unable to think in any other terms. If you don't like that, that's not my problem.

I am glad you do not like the clear bad guy. Ghehe.

Of course you are fed up. It's hurting your latest holy grail: "just absolving the Reapers from responsibility". I am patiently waithing what your next move is. Oh, wait. I already know that: "cosmic incident", right?

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 juillet 2012 - 07:24 .

[Ieldra]

lillitheris wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You get a different slide with a krogan child even if you sabotaged the cure, with EDI telling that even those "shattered cultures" will eventually live free of poverty and disease (!). What I like about this scenario is that there is no mention of galactic peace.

What about computer viruses?

What about them? You mean that computer viruses might be able to infect people's integrated technology? Yeah, it's very likely that will be a danger. Not exactly the same thing as diseases though.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Uh. Everyone is now one species. You "understand" the other person. You "understand" Synthetics.

So....to understand someone it is now necessary to be of the same species? Since when? I see different species in the epilogues. As different from each other as they were before.

You are all one species. A Playpus is the same as a Giraffe. A dog is the same as a cat.

They retain the way they look and their individuality but they share everything else.

One. Species.

Thematic material pertaining to species diversity: Dropped.

Michael Gamble alluded to this on Twitter. So yeah, you're up the Yangtze without a paddle.

In effect, you have achieved the lyrical components of I am the Walrus.

"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." 

"Goo goo g'joob."

[Pacifien]

Modifié par Pacifien, 11 juillet 2012 - 08:12 .

[Ieldra]

@AngryFrozenWater:

The nature of the Reapers:
About Legion's statement: you are quoting the wrong one. The one I am always referring to in these arguments is here. "Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined in an immortal machine body. 'Each a nation'". That's about as clear as things get, don't you think?

Shepard's role in the Synthesis vs. Reaperization:
(1) There is no mention of dispersal in the way the Reaperized species are "processed".
(2) In one case it's a Reaper who does it, in the other it's the Crucible. The Crucible was not built by the Reapers.
==> Your equating of the Reaperization process with Shepard's personality dissemination for Synthesis is methodically flawed.
This invalidates your first line of arguments about the nature of the Reapers. You have, thus, not invalidated my point.

As for the second one further down in your long post, that may be somewhat plausible, but let me rephrase what you're saying here: "I cannot imagine that I would not want to die in that situation, so I feel perfectly justified in killing someone else in that situation without asking and without *any* knowledge of how that situation feels from within." I'm sorry, but that doesn't work for me. I have a good imagination, but I also know its limitations. Apart from that, whatever the Reapers are they are valid life forms. The claim that "nothing is lost" is false. "Nothing of value"? Perhaps, but value is something you add. I have a different perspective. 

Moral responsibility:
You have asked me: "Could you live with yourself once you've discovered that you were responsible for countless genocides?" (1) I have no idea and I hope that I'll never find out. I also know that I cannot know how I would act from this side of the fence. I claim that neither do you know that about yourself! Ah, and there's the additional problem: Had I been mind-controlled I would not have been responsible. (2) The Reapers are not you or me, judging them by human standards may be problematic.
(2) can also be used against my original claim of course. But there's this difference: I claim that it's implausible that ALL Reapers would follow the Catalyst if they're avatars of civilizations without being compelled. You claim that's implausible for ANY Reaper not to kill itself after becoming aware of what it's responsible for. I maintain that some Reapers would not follow the Catalyst were they not compelled, and I concede that some Reapers might kill themselves. I reject all generalizing claims in these matters that treat the Reapers as a unified force without an explanation about why they are unified. Reapers have personalities, why shouldn't they have preferences? 

About not knowing things:
It is important to point out what we do not know because you are making sweeping generalizations about how ALL Reapers would or would not behave all the time, based on *your* opinions about how *you* would behave in that situation. That is methodically flawed.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2012 - 08:38 .

[Ieldra]

@Taboo:
All life on Earth is based on DNA. Are we all the same species?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Slakky wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

In the geth consensus Legion has chosen how things look. Just to make Shepard comfortable in that for humans alien environment. Legion is very clear about that. Shepard even jokes about the weapon.

Shep: Wasn't that footage from the past? Why are the quarians masked?
Legion: You process our memories by using your own.

Ah. Agreed. I stand corrected.

However, I hope you do agree that BW was not willing to give up the longest running gag/mystery in the franchise by showing the quarians unmasked.

Shepard: What is this?

Legion: We have installed filters to allow you to make visual sense of this server's raw data. Your mind perceives our world as something familiar.

And that is what I mean. Legion actively helped Shepard by installing filters to make sense of the consensus. Legion had no intention of deceit. Besides, BW had to do *something* to visualize that environment and dream up some dialogue to explain it, right? As to its own appearance there:

Shepard: You look... different.

Legion: We have made ourselves visually distinct for your convenience.

Legion still looks like its familiar self, though. The change was there so Shepard wouldn't have a problem finding him.

Slakky wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

About compartmentalization. Can you you please explain what you mean by that? I looked it up in the dictionary and now I need to guess. So, I thought I better ask.

Immoral decision making implies cognitive dissonance implies compartmentalization. You're saying that Starjar is acting on one set of morals when it talks to Shepard and another the rest of the time when it's just reaping everyone. I still don't see any evidence that it ever follows morals of any kind. It just has the formal requirement to preserve the balance between organics and synthetics.

Ah. OK. I don't see it happening either, even though they know how organic behavior works when they use it against us. That's is worrisome, because it is obvious that they cannot be trusted. We can do without them. Especially when that formal requirement violates our right of self-determination.

Slakky wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

First we have the issue of the brat being innocent, because it was just a machine performing its duty. That is not how AIs work. The brat and its boys are not VIs which simply execute a set of pre-programmed functions. AIs are smart and the brat and the reapers are supposed to be the most advanced life forms in our galaxy. They are true AIs, and just as any advanced organic race, are self-aware and capable of creative and independent thought. They learn and they adapt. Because of that they can and must be held responsible for their actions. And what's more they know exactly how the emotion and ethics of organics work.

Understanding doesn't imply agreement or empathy. I understand the values of lots of people who I write off as mentally ill; I'm not going to operate on them.

Also isn't this the same robot who doesn't understand how preserving the knowledge and experience of organics without preserving their self-determination is a vacuous solution? The whole point of that dialog is to establish that it isn't capable of empathetic reasoning.

Understanding does not mean agreement. That's right. Even though they know how organic behavior works they have chosen to use it against us. And that's why we are better off without them. Their lack of empathy is not helping their cause.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 11 juillet 2012 - 09:17 .

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Taboo:
All life on Earth is based on DNA. Are we all the same species?

We are all ONE giant super organism in Synthesis.

With seperate personalities.

I am the eggman, they are they eggmen.

Essentially.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 11 juillet 2012 - 09:22 .

[Shaigunjoe]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Uh. Everyone is now one species. You "understand" the other person. You "understand" Synthetics.

So....to understand someone it is now necessary to be of the same species? Since when? I see different species in the epilogues. As different from each other as they were before.

You are all one species. A Playpus is the same as a Giraffe. A dog is the same as a cat.

They retain the way they look and their individuality but they share everything else.

One. Species.

Thematic material pertaining to species diversity: Dropped.

Michael Gamble alluded to this on Twitter. So yeah, you're up the Yangtze without a paddle.

In effect, you have achieved the lyrical components of I am the Walrus.

"I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together." 

"Goo goo g'joob."

What is the tweet you were referencing?

[Shaigunjoe]

lillitheris wrote...

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Interesting ideas Mobius. Does this whole 'new stuff that wraps around DNA' make anyone think of epigenetics?

Not really, since epigenetics/Lamarckian evolution is seeming like a very real possibility without any “new DNA”. And it certainly wouldn’t make any sense to refer to it as “new DNA”, the Catalyst would just call it epigenetics.

(Epigenetics, in case you’re wondering, is a field studying the possibility of genetic/hereditary changes that don’t actually show as changes in the genetic sequence itself.)

Easy there, nobody mentioned the catalyst.  I was talking about aesthetics of the DNA being 'wrapped' in something, much like how the dermis is wrapped in the epidermis.  You certainly can allued to things without mentioning them specifically.

I prefer the much used analogy (especially in this circumstance) "If the genome is the hardware, then the epigenome is the software".  As of yet, there isn't much known about how epigenitics impacts things in the long run, and there is a lot of discovery to go in that field.