Ieldra2 wrote...
The nature of the Reapers:
About Legion's statement: you are quoting the wrong one. The one I am always referring to in these arguments is here. "Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined in an immortal machine body. 'Each a nation'". That's about as clear as things get, don't you think?
Legion followed that sentence by declaring it was speculation:
Legion: We did not "know". It was one hypothesis among many. When Nazara corrupted the heretics, we touched its minds. We perceived they were different from ours, but we could not tell how.
Ieldra2 wrote...
Shepard's role in the Synthesis vs. Reaperization:
(1) There is no mention of dispersal in the way the Reaperized species are "processed".
(2) In one case it's a Reaper who does it, in the other it's the Crucible. The Crucible was not built by the Reapers.
==> Your equating of the Reaperization process with Shepard's personality dissemination for Synthesis is methodically flawed.
This invalidates your first line of arguments about the nature of the Reapers. You have, thus, not invalidated my point.
Shepard: Explain how my energy can be added to the Crucible.
Child: Your organic energy, the essence of who you are and what you are, will be broken down and then dispersed.
There would be no reason to sacrifice Shepard if that did not have any impact. Obviously the quarians do not grow five toes and the krogans do not lose their hump.
Again, the brat's dialogue, the beam which adds Shepard's organic energy to the beam, and Shepards sacrifice to add that essence are enough proof. It's all pretty obvious to me. It cannot be denied.
Here is an interesting one: The brat also seems to know a lot about the Crucible. As a perfect tour guide it is able to give lots of details about its working, though. And it is certainly very interested in explaining why synthesis is the ideal solution and inevitable. But there is one thing it didn't mention, but which is shown in the cinematic. Let me give you a hint: Compare the three choice activations and watch what happens to the brat in any of these. Two of them have an interesting close up of the brat. The synthesis one does not have such a close-up. But keep your eyes on the brat as long as you can. See what happens? Or actually, did you see what didn't happen?
And about your essence used to store the minds of the harvested race. See my reply at the top of this post. Legion invalidates his own take on it.
Ieldra2 wrote...
As for the second one further down in your long post, that may be somewhat plausible, but let me rephrase what you're saying here: "I cannot imagine that I would not want to die in that situation, so I feel perfectly justified in killing someone else in that situation without asking and without *any* knowledge of how that situation feels from within." I'm sorry, but that doesn't work for me. I have a good imagination, but I also know its limitations. Apart from that, whatever the Reapers are they are valid life forms. The claim that "nothing is lost" is false. "Nothing of value"? Perhaps, but value is something you add. I have a different perspective.
No. Please don't rephrase me.
Let me rephrase it.
When I, in the case of AFW and not as Shepard, think about my existence here then I think about my family, my friends, the city that love, my work, my views about society, the goals I want to reach, the hangovers and the great day before, etc., etc. If I am to be harvested in the way ME2 portrays then I am squeezed alive to goo and die. Now assume that what you say is true and the essence of me survives in a reaper mind. Not only will everything I know be there as memories, but at the same time everything I know will be taken away from me. I will never be able to eat at my sister's on Thursdays. I will never be able to eat with my friend on Fridays and talk until the birds start singing. I will never be able to visit the Vondelpark and sit in the sunshine. I will never be able to finish that project at work which I gave all I've got. I will never be able to dance to
Cosmic Slop while the sub-woofer is drying my hair. By now you'll get the picture. All of that is lost forever. I will be in a prison. Never be able to do those things again or finish what I've started. Never be free. What made me me is gone. The quality of my life would have approached zero. I rather die than live in such a prison forever. I don't want that to happen to anyone. Get me out of that nightmare. Please pull the plug.
Now. If that happens before the 3 options then I think lots of harvested minds will riot, grieve, etc., inside that reaper body. However, we do not see that happen. So, I assume there is some kind of control, imposed by the owning reaper. And after synthesis, that control either continues or has been replaced by whatever forces the utopia to be happy. If there is no such control then the hell starts again forever. Reapers don't die, so I assume those harvested minds are kept alive as well.
And the "nothing is really lost" reference has to do with knowledge. There I am describing the alternative which I believe is the actual situation. There is no essence of their minds that is preserved. In my view only the race's knowledge is preserved. It has no life and is abstract. And thus nothing can be really lost when you destroy the knowledge in that reaper. In time knowledge can be replaced when that is destroyed.
No matter what method. It is still genocide.
Well, now that I am writing anyway (and it seems you are finally interested) there is also the case of the reapers themselves. Each reaper has its own core AI. As such it is no different than a synthetic. And when that reaper gains the same awareness as EDI's "I'm alive" then it also has the understanding of organics, just like EDI. It will *know* what cyclical atrocities it has inflicted. If it there is no mind control in utopia then I cannot predict what it would do, but if I was that reaper, I would know I was guilty of the genocide of an entire race and that I was used as a war machine to commit other atrocities. I think I would rather die. However, if what you say is true and the harvested minds really have awareness, I would also know that it would kill the harvested minds inside me. That's a problem I cannot even see the implications of. It would drive me mad.
Reapers better have some kind of mind control to keep them sane. The same goes for the aware harvested minds inside it.
So, no matter what angle I look at it, it is better to destroy the reapers.
Ieldra2 wrote...
Moral responsibility:
You have asked me: "Could you live with yourself once you've discovered that you were responsible for countless genocides?" (1) I have no idea and I hope that I'll never find out. I also know that I cannot know how I would act from this side of the fence. I claim that neither do you know that about yourself! Ah, and there's the additional problem: Had I been mind-controlled I would not have been responsible. (2) The Reapers are not you or me, judging them by human standards may be problematic.
(2) can also be used against my original claim of course. But there's this difference: I claim that it's implausible that ALL Reapers would follow the Catalyst if they're avatars of civilizations without being compelled. You claim that's implausible for ANY Reaper not to kill itself after becoming aware of what it's responsible for. I maintain that some Reapers would not follow the Catalyst were they not compelled, and I concede that some Reapers might kill themselves. I reject all generalizing claims in these matters that treat the Reapers as a unified force without an explanation about why they are unified. Reapers have personalities, why shouldn't they have preferences?
I've tried to give you my views about what I think above. Your view presents an interesting thought experiment.
I also claim that reapers are not tools before the end of the game. That has to do with them being those super-intelligent AIs. So, an uncontrolled reaper must have free will. The lore says that they are controlled by the brat before the ending. What implications does that have?
Talking about speculations and reaper personalities: Is there an equivalent of indoctrination for their core AI? And if so, how do these two fight each other? Have there been reapers that rebelled? That is pure speculation on my part of course, but it seems unlikely that there wasn't at least one. It is not something I can ever prove, nor something that I intend to. It is just a thought that crossed my mind while playing ME.
Also, Harbinger makes that intriguing sound. It either says "Serve Us" or "Save us". That's the closest I got to it. It doesn't mean a thing, but it is somewhere in the back of my mind.
Like Sabrina, a poster famous for her disclaimers, would say: That's of course my view.
Have fun.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 juillet 2012 - 01:10 .
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