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[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

About Shepard and the beam:

I do not deny that Shepard's personality is disseminated in the beam.

Yes. Exactly. It is dispersed to everyone else. Which means that it must be used as such to achieve the end of chaos, because I doubt that only the physical changes can do that. It has to have impact on their thought processes. Glad that we agree on that one.

Ieldra2 wrote...

I deny that the Reaperization process is in any way similar. There is nothing to connect one to the other.

Except that you assumed that the same kind of essence is extracted and uploaded into a reaper. We really do no know.

Ieldra2 wrote...

About the nature of the Reapers:
OK, so Legion's statement was speculation. Unfortunate.

Exactly.

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't think it's really invalidated as an argument, though. The hypothesis still has weight because it fits well with some other pieces of information, like the need for whole individuals to make a Reaper instead of just cloned DNA samples - and as a storytelling element it has more weight because we are given this one instead of one of the other hypotheses the geth had made about the Reapers' nature. Nonetheless, I won't use it anymore because there are different pieces of information with which it doesn't appear to fit so well, like the Catalyst's line about what is harvested.

The picture I see emerging is this: the writers went out of their way to avoid giving away hard evidence about the nature of the Reapers. Here are some other hard-to-reconcile statements:

"I control the Reapers" vs "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers"
"We helped them ascend" vs "We harvest your knowledge, your creations....."

Perhaps that's as it should be. But it means we can circle around each other with our arguments and never come to a conclusion because there is conflicting information. Or this was written deliberately to illustrate a reality we aren't equipped to understand. This, btw, applies also your assertions as to how an existence as a Reaper would feel, considering that a Reaper may be many but is also one. I don't think you can make such assertions with confidence, even if there is continuity of identity, since there is a totally new mental environment. Different SF works have been exploring similar things with drastically different premises. Just think about this: is the horrific nature of the Reaperization process intended as an indication of what's in for those uploaded minds should they continue to exist and feel, or is it meant to be a distraction from the reality, an indication of nothing more than that the mind behind it doesn't think as we do? I've always felt the over-the-top horror in the ME games was a distraction, that we were called to look beyond it, and I feel vindicated in that belief by the subversion of the "Lovecraftian horror" aspect of the Reapers in the end.

I think it's already a horror story if only knowledge was extracted.

I see a reaper as a bio-synthetic construction which can only reproduce by artificial means. So it needs those bodies to produce biochemical substances as raw materials of some kind to create the bulk of its body. By that I mean, it is not simply metal with an AI brain, because that would make it pure synthetic. Also complete bodies are required because it feels like ME somehow assumes that knowledge is not only stored in the brain. That's kind of odd, because we know that people don't lose large parts of their memory when they lose body parts. We do know that the spine is important and that it is an integral part of the brain.

A second idea that crossed my mind was that maybe the reapers create a virtual reality inside themselves which simulated the harvested organism. The bodies were required to improve the quality of the simulation. But that would be too Matrix-like. I abandoned the idea, because it appeared to be too much trouble for a species that has no respect for life.

Ieldra2 wrote...

I would like to add that nothing in the last paragraph should be construed as denying that what the Catalyst and its Reaper army did was genocide. It was. What I do deny is that the way the Reapers came into existence makes them "abominations", things that should not exist. I do not accept any normative statements about which things should or should not exist. The creation process of a life form does not detract of its validity as a life form once it does exist. There are people who think genetic engineering is immoral, but even they wouldn't kill Miranda. Most of them wouldn't, anyway. Hopefully.

That doesn't mean that mistakes won't be made. I think there are things which can be invented that should never have been invented. As long as it is about simple things, like bombs, most agree. When it is alive and threatens everything alive by any means possible, like the reapers, then things get blurry. I do think that the only threat that we have seen that matches the description of the hypothetical threat mentioned by the brat and the boys are the reapers themselves. To me the reapers operate like super-intelligent predators and as such should be viewed as purpose-built predators.

It doesn't matter that they are super-intelligent, because they threaten every organic species in the galaxy. In their vision the galaxy is a garden from which they remove the weed from time to time. Well, that weed is us. I see synthesis as just another means of removing what the brat and the boys consider the weed in their garden. It doesn't matter that all the weed is turned into roses. Even if it is not their own idea. Sorry, but it is not their garden. And we are not their weed. That weed feels is perfectly happy as it is.

Synthesis is perhaps not their idea, but the brat has a good reason to sell synthesis as the best thing since sliced bread. BTW, did you watch the brat in all 3 endings like I asked you? What happened to the brat in control and destroy that didn't happen in synthesis?

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also, my point about Reaper mind control still stands: even if a Reaper has just collective characteristics of a species (it has to have at least that for the whole process to make any sense), it is implausible that ten thousand Reapers would follow the Catalyst without fail without being compelled. Such a scenario may actually make Synthesis less complicated to explain. That we don't see any rogue Reapers in Synthesis (which I agree would probably exist) doesn't say more than this isn't a problem big enough to impact the general image of a good future, just as the absence of people who still want to kill the Reapers (who I would also expect to exist) in both Control and Synthesis doesn't say anything more than that.

(more speculation about the nature of the Reapers later.)

Well, I mentioned that because it seemed odd to me. I always had crazy ideas like that on the old forums. When ME2 was developed people like me argued that it didn't make sense that all geth were hostile. At the time we only saw the hostile geth from ME1. If they were truly intelligent than there must have been diversity in their ideas. Such threads on the old forums didn't get more than 2 or 3 pages. Ghehe. I wouldn't be surprised if BW did the same with the reapers. The Leviathan DLC maybe?

Even if there are non-hostile reapers it wouldn't convince me to opt for synthesis, because I feel that it still violates the right of self-determination. It's still genocide without bodies.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 juillet 2012 - 03:52 .

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
I sort of work with the idea that Synthesis is sort of the answer to the Geth's "Does this unit have a soul?" question. The Catalyst description of "organic energy" being "the essence of who and what you are" sounds a lot like a soul to me.

I prefer to avoid the term because of its religious implications, but as a shorthand it might do. The problem is that the answer to "does this unit have a soul" was always intended to be "yes", and personally, I do not see any deficiency in the state of being of a non-synthesized synthetic. Changing how synthetic minds work with Synthesis (as opposed to the change in organics which is physical) is only acceptable because they have struggled to understand organics in this way, and they now get that understanding. If there's one thing I don't like about the ME trilogy, particulary if you play Paragon, it's how it elevates traits specific to hypersocial species like humans to being the ultimate measure of all life. Having empathy with others as a rule is not intrinsically "better" than not having it. It's just a trait we value as humans because our survival has always depended on co-operation.

Organics gaining the ability to understand synthetics makes me think of David Archer's ability to communicate with the Geth. When Legion tells Shepard that the Geth convey information using a mathematical language he finds it incredibly foreign and hard to comprehend. Perhaps Synthesis gives organic individuals to communicate with Synthetics in a manner similar to David.

Hmm....that sounds interesting. It would be within the capabilities of integrated technology to give organics such an ability. Perhaps it's even part of the basic package of Synthesis. With synthetics gaining intuitive understanding of organics, I can see this resulting in people using either mode of thinking and communicating as needed by circumstances.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Mobius-Silent wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

In the geth consensus Legion has chosen how things look. Just to make Shepard comfortable in that for humans alien environment. Legion is very clear about that. Shepard even jokes about the weapon.

Incorrect, Legion created an interface so that it was _possible_ for Shepard to interpret the information visually, the only things that Legion _chose_ the aperance of were the things it created (It's own avatar and the weapon) the rest was simply given visual form by shepards mind. I'm pretty sure the interaction with the Catalyst is the same principle, the Catalyst provided nothing for Shepard's mind to use so it picked the last representation of Shepard's fear-of-the-unknown, the child from his dreams.

That sounds like indoctrination theory to me. Also, unlike the consensus, there was no virtual world there.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 juillet 2012 - 04:19 .

[lillitheris]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It doesn't matter that they are super-intelligent, because they threaten every organic species in the galaxy.

-Organic. They threaten every species in the galaxy. The geth won’t live through the Reaping, either.

[AngryFrozenWater]

lillitheris wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

It doesn't matter that they are super-intelligent, because they threaten every organic species in the galaxy.

-Organic. They threaten every species in the galaxy. The geth won’t live through the Reaping, either.

True. But the main idea was, as you know, that organics create those synthetics and for some counterproductive reason, only known to the brat and the boys, the organics had to die. It didn't matter if there was peace with synthetics. It didn't matter if the organics killed all synthetics. Obviously the reapers also exterminate the synthetics when present.

Edit: The only reason one can think of is that a cycle is just used to reproduce new reapers. So the whole hypothetical synthetics threat is just a rationalization for that.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:30 .

[RiouHotaru]

Taboo-XX wrote...

 Did you know that manipulation of genetic coding on a mass scale is considered genocide by international law. No?

I need a citation on this.  I'm not sure there's any precedent in any law for mass genetic manipulation, unless someone actually managed to do so...?

[Ieldra]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

About Shepard and the beam:

I do not deny that Shepard's personality is disseminated in the beam.

Yes. Exactly. It is dispersed to everyone else. Which means that it must be used as such to achieve the end of chaos, because I doubt that only the physical changes can do that. It has to have impact on their thought processes. Glad that we agree on that one.

Well no. We agree that "all that Shepard was" is dispersed. We do not agree that it necessarily must have changed how everyone thinks. Unless you see the synthetics gaining understanding of organics as such a change. 

Anyway if Shepard was dispersed, then she was also fragmented. I have no idea what a "fragment of one's mind" can do. Gah....too much space magic here. I can wrap my mind around the changes wrought by Synthesis and even make some speculations about how it might be achieved, but Shepard's personality dissemination is pure mysticism.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I deny that the Reaperization process is in any way similar. There is nothing to connect one to the other.

Except that you assumed that the same kind of essence is extracted and uploaded into a reaper. We really do no know.

Yes, but there is no dispersal, and as far as we know, it wasn't a Reaper process that did it. Perhaps I should've said there is some superficial similarity, but no connection, neither between the agents nor between the processes.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I don't think it's really invalidated as an argument, though. The hypothesis still has weight because it fits well with some other pieces of information, like the need for whole individuals to make a Reaper instead of just cloned DNA samples - and as a storytelling element it has more weight because we are given this one instead of one of the other hypotheses the geth had made about the Reapers' nature. Nonetheless, I won't use it anymore because there are different pieces of information with which it doesn't appear to fit so well, like the Catalyst's line about what is harvested.

The picture I see emerging is this: the writers went out of their way to avoid giving away hard evidence about the nature of the Reapers. Here are some other hard-to-reconcile statements:

"I control the Reapers" vs "I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers"
"We helped them ascend" vs "We harvest your knowledge, your creations....."

Perhaps that's as it should be. But it means we can circle around each other with our arguments and never come to a conclusion because there is conflicting information. Or this was written deliberately to illustrate a reality we aren't equipped to understand. This, btw, applies also your assertions as to how an existence as a Reaper would feel, considering that a Reaper may be many but is also one. I don't think you can make such assertions with confidence, even if there is continuity of identity, since there is a totally new mental environment. Different SF works have been exploring similar things with drastically different premises. Just think about this: is the horrific nature of the Reaperization process intended as an indication of what's in for those uploaded minds should they continue to exist and feel, or is it meant to be a distraction from the reality, an indication of nothing more than that the mind behind it doesn't think as we do? I've always felt the over-the-top horror in the ME games was a distraction, that we were called to look beyond it, and I feel vindicated in that belief by the subversion of the "Lovecraftian horror" aspect of the Reapers in the end.

I think it's already a horror story if only knowledge was extracted.

I see a reaper as a bio-synthetic construction which can only reproduce by artificial means. So it needs those bodies to produce biochemical substances as raw materials of some kind to create the bulk of its body. By that I mean, it is not simply metal with an AI brain, because that would make it pure synthetic. Also complete bodies are required because it feels like ME somehow assumes that knowledge is not only stored in the brain. That's kind of odd, because we know that people don't lose large parts of their memory when they lose body parts. We do know that the spine is important and that it is an integral part of the brain.

That doesn't work. If we follow Javik and accept that "experience is a genetic marker" (which I am not ready to accept in the way it's presented but I'll let that slide for the sake of the argument), then that memory is stored in every cell of the body. You'd still only require DNA samples and the uploaded mind (whatever becomes of it) to make a new Reaper.

As I see it, the Reapers ARE physically fully synthetic. EDI is *also* speculating at the CB about what exactly the "genetic sludge" is used for, and whether or not this is an equivalent of reproduction, as she explicitly admits. If it was a reproduction analogue, then something of another Reaper would have to get into the new one. There is no indication that this happens - all Reapers are too far away for that to happen at the CB. Also, it would be an incredibly cheap and disappointing rationale for the cycle. That may be a meta-level reason, but it's enough for me to never accept that hypothesis.

Here's what I now think: A Reaper is based on the species it was made from the same way as Control!Shepard is based on the human Shepard. A Reaper is a construct infused with the collective memory, knowledge and personalities of the Reaperized species. There is no continuity of identity, but a Reaper mind and personality is a representation - an avatar - of the species it was made from. How aspects of individuals of that species fit into this we don't know, since Reapers have many minds but are also one. 

AngryFrozenWater wrote...


It doesn't matter that they are super-intelligent, because they threaten every organic species in the galaxy. In their vision the galaxy is a garden from which they remove the weed from time to time. Well, that weed is us. I see synthesis as just another means of removing what the brat and the boys consider the weed in their garden. It doesn't matter that all the weed is turned into roses. Even if it is not their own idea. Sorry, but it is not their garden. And we are not their weed. That weed feels is perfectly happy as it is.

Except that Synthesis doesn't remove anything. It adds. I don't think any interpretation that lessens minds is in the spirit of Synthesis, not in the remotest way. To stay in your analogy, Synthesis may add the ability to turn into a rose to you, but you don't need to use that ability.

Also, I still maintain that Synthesis is not the Reapers' doing but the Crucible's and that the Catalyst is just the one who presents them to me after having been reprogrammed by the Crucible. The Crucible has been built to end the cycle by different means. It has been built by a sequence of species who eventually got harvested. Synthesis fulfils the Catalyst's objective of creating the basis for a lasting peace between organics and synthetics, so of course it's not at all surprising it supports this option. But it did not create it.

Synthesis is perhaps not their idea, but the brat has a good reason to sell synthesis as the best thing since sliced bread. BTW, did you watch the brat in all 3 endings like I asked you? What happened to the brat in control and destroy that didn't happen in synthesis?

I'm not yet there in my latest game, but I guess you're speaking of the Catalyst's dissolution I vaguely recall. I've thought about what will happen to the Catalyst after Synthesis. Based on my mind control hypothesis, the freed Reapers will most likely withdraw their minds from the Catalyst and all that's left is the Citadel housing its core intelligence - an item of a technology civilization will now know how to decipher. Did you notice that Synthesis is the only ending where we see neither a relay nor the Citadel in the epilogue scenes? I think this is because the ME3 team intended Synthesis to be open to the interpretation that civilization will not be bound to that technology any more, instead finding something new and exotic to take its place. What happens to the core intelligence of the Catalyst is anyone's guess. Total headcanon territory. No evidence in either direction. We only know its purpose has been fulfilled.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Even if there are non-hostile reapers it wouldn't convince me to opt for synthesis, because I feel that it still violates the right of self-determination. It's still genocide without bodies.

I think the "genocide" term is thrown around too much where it doesn't apply in these debates. Nothing, neither in the exposition nor in the epilogue, justifies that claim.
Anyway, we won't agree on the moral justification for Synthesis or the lack of it, and all reasonable arguments on both sides (and a lot of unreasonable ones on the anti-Synthesis side, if you don't mind the reminder) have already been brought up multiple times. It's better to leave that topic alone.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juillet 2012 - 05:49 .

[Ieldra]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Did you know that manipulation of genetic coding on a mass scale is considered genocide by international law. No?

I need a citation on this.  I'm not sure there's any precedent in any law for mass genetic manipulation, unless someone actually managed to do so...?

Genocide is defined as "The the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". Since that destruction can theoretically be achieved by genetic manipulation in the case of ethnic or racial groups, genetic engineering can be a method of genocide. This is my conclusion btw.. To my knowledge, it is not mentioned in any official documents as such a method, and neither is it said anywhere that any en-masse genetic manipulation is classified as genocide.

Anyway I don't see anything of the kind happening in Synthesis. Krogan are happily krogan, humans are happily humans etc.., and their architectures (as the only indicators of culture as part of their ethnic, species and national identity we can actually see) are as different as they were before. To deny this makes no sense at all.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juillet 2012 - 06:02 .

[RiouHotaru]

Well, destruction implies force or violence, or malicious action, like if a plague or virus was used and wipe out an entire group.

Synthesis clearly doesn't match the definition the genocide.

And while Destroy does kill them, I have a few issues with it:

Does Destroy specifically target AIs? When the Catalyst uses the word "synthetics" I presume he means AIs, but then he states that normal technology will be damaged as well.

[Ieldra]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Does Destroy specifically target AIs? When the Catalyst uses the word "synthetics" I presume he means AIs, but then he states that normal technology will be damaged as well.

Does it mention that even in high EMS endings? In the original endings that sentence only appeared in low-EMS endings. I don't have the EC version memorized, but I don't recall it being said when I tried the high EMS Destroy ending. As I see it, only synthetic life (AIs) will be targeted there.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 12 juillet 2012 - 06:07 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

About Shepard and the beam:

I do not deny that Shepard's personality is disseminated in the beam.

Yes. Exactly. It is dispersed to everyone else. Which means that it must be used as such to achieve the end of chaos, because I doubt that only the physical changes can do that. It has to have impact on their thought processes. Glad that we agree on that one.

Well no. We agree that "all that Shepard was" is dispersed. We do not agree that it necessarily must have changed how everyone thinks. Unless you see the synthetics gaining understanding of organics as such a change.

Anyway if Shepard was dispersed, then she was also fragmented. I have no idea what a "fragment of one's mind" can do. Gah....too much space magic here. I can wrap my mind around the changes wrought by Synthesis and even make some speculations about how it might be achieved, but Shepard's personality dissemination is pure mysticism.

No, sir. You were very specific about the personality. Mysticism or not, it is what is presented to us. Everything in the game is too much space magic. But filtering one out because of that and leaving the other in only suggests that you are bending what is presented to us to your own liking. You cannot deny that Shepard's personality, as you call it, is broken down and dispersed. If you feel that is destructive then you are creating, once again, head canon. If nothing of Shepard's "personality" is used in the thought processes then Shepard is simply assassinated, because I doubt that the physical side is enough to end the chaos.

Ieldra2 wrote...

[...] you're speaking of the Catalyst's dissolution [...]

Nah. It doesn't dissolve. That's what makes it interesting. So, I have created a thread about it.

Ieldra2 wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Even if there are non-hostile reapers it wouldn't convince me to opt for synthesis, because I feel that it still violates the right of self-determination. It's still genocide without bodies.

I think the "genocide" term is thrown around too much where it doesn't apply in these debates. Nothing, neither in the exposition nor in the epilogue, justifies that claim.
Anyway, we won't agree on the moral justification for Synthesis or the lack of it, and all reasonable arguments on both sides (and a lot of unreasonable ones on the anti-Synthesis side, if you don't mind the reminder) have already been brought up multiple times. It's better to leave that topic alone.

The whole idea of the ending is based on the decision making. This thread highlights the ascension part of it. That also includes the ethical side of it. It's good that people step in from time to time who show the horrific implications of an otherwise nice SF idea.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 juillet 2012 - 07:12 .

[RiouHotaru]

Which is funny since everyone ignores the horrific implications of Reject (that you willingly sentenced an entire galaxy to get Reaped over your moral principles) or handwaves the implication.

[TMA LIVE]

Random thoughts on synthesis, after re-reading what Casey said about ME3.

I think some of the things came off as he says. Like example, do I consider EDI alive, and would want to do whatever I could to keep her alive, as well as the Geth? Because that's why I originally picked Synthesis. Or why I might've picked control.

And elements of forcing change are in ME3. Does Legion asks any of those Geth if they truly want to be "alive" and changed by Reaper technology? Or does he force them because it's what "he" wants for the Geth? Sure, if he doesn't, the Geth don't stand a chance against the Quarians, but he could've tried talking them down. Does he allow the Quarians to accept this, or tries to force them to accept the Geth becoming true AI's, or they'll kill them? Similar things happen with the Krogan and the Salarians, where you force the Salarians to accept that the Krogan will be cured, and damn the consequences. Or you choose to not allow the Krogan to be cured, and even go out of your way to help exterminate them. You and others in the ME series are forcing people to accept change or else, or you kill them. Like the Rachni. The galaxy must accept them despite the consequences, or you exterminate them.

Synthesis is simply asking, how far are you willing to go when it comes to forcing a change on the entire galaxy, just for a possible peaceful solution? And if not, are you willing to kill people you consider life forms, to destroy your enemy?

Another thing. The way I see it is this. Everything in the galaxy has been affected by the blast. Including leaves. Everything will soon start becoming like technology, and technology is now alive. So if an AI is ever made, it will not be considered an AI, but automatically considered another life form.


If something like Kasumi's Greybox can come alive, then that means, we're now going to be looking at technology as not just a car that drives me places, but a life form, if indeed it becomes alive.

We wouldn't be reacting the same way the Quarians did, where they questioned if the Geth really were alive, or deserved rights, etc. We'd automatically would consider it a life form.

Which would solve the Catalyst's problem. It doesn't care about a life form vs a life form. It was made to care about Organics being destroyed by Synthetics. You remove both terms, and call them life forms, it's problem is solved, regardless of future wars.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 12 juillet 2012 - 07:33 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Ieldra2 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...
Does Destroy specifically target AIs? When the Catalyst uses the word "synthetics" I presume he means AIs, but then he states that normal technology will be damaged as well.

Does it mention that even in high EMS endings? In the original endings that sentence only appeared in low-EMS endings. I don't have the EC version memorized, but I don't recall it being said when I tried the high EMS Destroy ending. As I see it, only synthetic life (AIs) will be targeted there.

Destroy doesn't discriminate, it'll take out the Reapers, Geth, and EDI but the energy wave will damage any other technology caught in the energy wave. The Catalyst states that the damage can easily be repaired by the various civilizations. Galactic Civilization isn't crippled but it will take a long time to get things back to the way they were.

[Ieldra]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
No, sir. You were very specific about the personality.

Stop misrepresenting me, thrice damn it! I was specific about the effects of the Reaperization process, not about Shepard's personality dissemination. That this was identical was YOUR idea, and I specifically denied it. You are trying to force your headcanon on me and I will not have it!

If nothing of Shepard's "personality" is used in the thought processes then Shepard is simply assassinated, because I doubt that the physical side is enough to end the chaos.

What it is used for is anyone's guess. Could be just to give that understanding to synthetics. Again, that "mind control" is your headcanon, with no single piece of evidence going for it.

[Ieldra]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Which is funny since everyone ignores the horrific implications of Reject (that you willingly sentenced an entire galaxy to get Reaped over your moral principles) or handwaves the implication.

Yeah, sacrifing galactic civilization on the altar of a principle. So *very* heroic. /sarcasm.
"Stand on the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if your honor ever mattered to them. The silence is your answer". It's good that this option is in the game, but I don't get people who use it.

[lillitheris]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Which is funny since a tiny minority ignores the horrific implications of Reject (that you willingly sentenced an entire galaxy to get Reaped over your moral principles) or handwaves the implication.

Fixed it for you.

Although, it must be said, there are a fair amount who think Synthesis even worse than Refuse.

[Ieldra]

@TMALIVE:
I don't agree with the notion that "all technology is now alive". That doesn't make any sense. "Life" isn't an attribute you can just attach to anything. Also, the EC exposition and epilogue specifically states that the distinction between organic and synthetic life still exists ("Organics and synthetics can live in peace"), only that they have now some of each others' traits (the Catalyst's exposition) which solves the extinction scenario, and that the line may be blurred further in future.
I don't think it's possible to prevent the creation of non-empathic synthetics since it isn't possible for a physical law to insert additional programming into a synthetic life form, but I think doing that would be viewed with a similar attitude as genetically engineering a human without empathy. Anyway since organics can now keep up with synthetics, synthetics won't surpass organics any more, and that was the root cause of the problem in the first place.

I have a hypothesis about how the scene with Keiji is intended to be taken but it's not that his greybox becomes alive.

[Ieldra]

If I may direct everyone's attention to the fascinating thread:

How Stuff Works: Synthesis Edition by WardenAlex. It's an attempt to use speculative science to explain how the process of Synthesis works. Since I have avoided an explanation of that here, WardenAlex' thread complements this one very well.

[Taboo]

^ I will state again.

He has a burst of gamma radiation in his post.

Everyone not protected by incredibly thick walls of lead is going to DIE.

TERRIBLY.

[Seival]

Here are some thoughts about how Synthesis (and all other final effects) could work:
http://social.biowar...ndex/12045178/1

...It's my old thread about the Crucible, but I think my thoughts are still actual

[o Ventus]

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ I will state again.

He has a burst of gamma radiation in his post.

Everyone not protected by incredibly thick walls of lead is going to DIE.

TERRIBLY.

Bruce Banner sat and took that gamma radiation like a champ, and see how he turned out?

[Taboo]

o Ventus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ I will state again.

He has a burst of gamma radiation in his post.

Everyone not protected by incredibly thick walls of lead is going to DIE.

TERRIBLY.

Bruce Banner sat and took that gamma radiation like a champ, and see how he turned out?

EDI can now smash without hesitation.

Distrubing fan fic time with Joker!

[TMA LIVE]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@TMALIVE:
I don't agree with the notion that "all technology is now alive". That doesn't make any sense. "Life" isn't an attribute you can just attach to anything. Also, the EC exposition and epilogue specifically states that the distinction between organic and synthetic life still exists ("Organics and synthetics can live in peace"), only that they have now some of each others' traits (the Catalyst's exposition) which solves the extinction scenario, and that the line may be blurred further in future.
I don't think it's possible to prevent the creation of non-empathic synthetics since it isn't possible for a physical law to insert additional programming into a synthetic life form, but I think doing that would be viewed with a similar attitude as genetically engineering a human without empathy. Anyway since organics can now keep up with synthetics, synthetics won't surpass organics any more, and that was the root cause of the problem in the first place.

I have a hypothesis about how the scene with Keiji is intended to be taken but it's not that his greybox becomes alive.

I'm just saying, we got the whole Geth thing with Legion trying to convince us they're alive, and will be more alive after Reaper upgrades. And EDi herself, in the voice over, said the line between Synthetic and Organic is disappearing. That she "is" alive. She also uses the word "we", as in everyone. Which does make me believe that all synthesis are now considered life forms to the galaxy, instead of just a machine that thinks it's alive, that doesn't deserve rights.

Now to be clear, I'm not saying every single piece of technology is now a living thing. Like I not saying an electric hammer is now a life form. But if it had a VI, or anything that could create an intelligence, I believe that Green Energy is somehow making it alive, Stephen King's "Maximum Overdrive" style. And with EDI and the Geth now considered "alive" in this new society, I think there's going to be a more acceptable future if new technology does come sentient machines, in which they won't receive the same treatment the Geth got.

Now you can tell me this still doesn't make sense to you, but keep in mind, I consider Mass Effect a human's fantasy of a sci-fi future, and not something serious or grounded in hard science. Which is the conclusion I came to when I romanced a hot blue alien chick that looked extremely human.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 12 juillet 2012 - 09:48 .