9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

o Ventus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ I will state again.

He has a burst of gamma radiation in his post.

Everyone not protected by incredibly thick walls of lead is going to DIE.

TERRIBLY.

Bruce Banner sat and took that gamma radiation like a champ, and see how he turned out?

Funny story, that.  He ended up giving his girlfriend cancer, and she died.

...

Okay, probably not so funny. 

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ I will state again.

He has a burst of gamma radiation in his post.

Everyone not protected by incredibly thick walls of lead is going to DIE.

TERRIBLY.

In “speculative science” gamma radiation is a good thing.

[Taboo]

lillitheris wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ I will state again.

He has a burst of gamma radiation in his post.

Everyone not protected by incredibly thick walls of lead is going to DIE.

TERRIBLY.

In “speculative science” gamma radiation is a good thing.

Well then, by that account, I can bring back EDI and the Geth to their original state with my "specualtive science".

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

 Did you know that manipulation of genetic coding on a mass scale is considered genocide by international law. No?

I need a citation on this.  I'm not sure there's any precedent in any law for mass genetic manipulation, unless someone actually managed to do so...?

Interesting, so curing the genophage is also considered genocide then since it involves manipulation of genetic coding on a mass scale? :stretching things to the max: Glad I faked it for Wreav then.

[o Ventus]

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ I will state again.

He has a burst of gamma radiation in his post.

Everyone not protected by incredibly thick walls of lead is going to DIE.

TERRIBLY.

Bruce Banner sat and took that gamma radiation like a champ, and see how he turned out?

Funny story, that.  He ended up giving his girlfriend cancer, and she died.

...

Okay, probably not so funny. 

#1 rule of comics: Nobody stays dead forever.

[Taboo]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

 Did you know that manipulation of genetic coding on a mass scale is considered genocide by international law. No?

I need a citation on this.  I'm not sure there's any precedent in any law for mass genetic manipulation, unless someone actually managed to do so...?

Interesting, so curing the genophage is also considered genocide then since it involves manipulation of genetic coding on a mass scale? :stretching things to the max: Glad I faked it for Wreav then.

Yes. The Genophage is NOT a sterility plauge. Speak to Mordin. It essentially makes births viable to pre-industrial levels.

Dead fetuses for everyone!

The official description:

deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

o Ventus wrote...

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ I will state again.

He has a burst of gamma radiation in his post.

Everyone not protected by incredibly thick walls of lead is going to DIE.

TERRIBLY.

Bruce Banner sat and took that gamma radiation like a champ, and see how he turned out?

Funny story, that.  He ended up giving his girlfriend cancer, and she died.

...

Okay, probably not so funny. 

#1 rule of comics: Nobody stays dead forever.

She didn't, but that bit gets a bit - no, a lot - stupid.

[o Ventus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Interesting, so curing the genophage is also considered genocide then since it involves manipulation of genetic coding on a mass scale? :stretching things to the max:  Glad I faked it for Wreav then.  

Genocide is literally defined as the systematic and deliberate extermination of people based on their racial, religious, or cultural belief or status.

So no, curing the genophage s NOTHING AT ALL like genocide.

[Applepie_Svk]

o Ventus wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Interesting, so curing the genophage is also considered genocide then since it involves manipulation of genetic coding on a mass scale? :stretching things to the max:  Glad I faked it for Wreav then.  

Genocide is literally defined as the systematic and deliberate extermination of people based on their racial, religious, or cultural belief or status.

So no, curing the genophage s NOTHING AT ALL like genocide.

I am not certain ... but but curing means helping and not killing... isn´t it ?

[Shaigunjoe]

o Ventus wrote...

Gyroscopic_Trout wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ I will state again.

He has a burst of gamma radiation in his post.

Everyone not protected by incredibly thick walls of lead is going to DIE.

TERRIBLY.

Bruce Banner sat and took that gamma radiation like a champ, and see how he turned out?

Funny story, that.  He ended up giving his girlfriend cancer, and she died.

...

Okay, probably not so funny. 

#1 rule of comics: Nobody stays dead forever.

Have you seen this?

[AngryFrozenWater]

Ieldra2 wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
Did you know that manipulation of genetic coding on a mass scale is considered genocide by international law. No?

I need a citation on this.  I'm not sure there's any precedent in any law for mass genetic manipulation, unless someone actually managed to do so...?

Genocide is defined as "The the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". Since that destruction can theoretically be achieved by genetic manipulation in the case of ethnic or racial groups, genetic engineering can be a method of genocide. This is my conclusion btw.. To my knowledge, it is not mentioned in any official documents as such a method, and neither is it said anywhere that any en-masse genetic manipulation is classified as genocide.

Anyway I don't see anything of the kind happening in Synthesis. Krogan are happily krogan, humans are happily humans etc.., and their architectures (as the only indicators of culture as part of their ethnic, species and national identity we can actually see) are as different as they were before. To deny this makes no sense at all.

Nope. For all intents and purposes the original races have ceased to exist. They have become something else. What used to define them has been been mutilated beyond recognition. Their DNA has been changed to a radical new framework which not only changes their physiology but also their thought processes by mixing it with Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is". Synthetics also suffer similar changes. That would be no problem when it was by choice. But synthesis is inflicted upon them without their explicit consent. There was no opt-in and no opt-out. Not only is this a severe violation of the right of self-determination, it is also a denial of the right of the original races to exist. The good intentions behind the decision and the advantages of synthesis are all irrelevant, not only because of the above, but also because the resulting group is forced to co-exist by artificial mental manipulation, which has severe limitations to their free will. It's genocide without the bodies.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 12 juillet 2012 - 11:07 .

[I Am Robot]

The races keep their racial identity and individuals keep their individuality. No ones thought process becomes mixed with Shepard's. Their consciousnesses does not change. Their ability to think and form individual opinions is not hindered. Organics and synthetics do change in a fundamental way but keep their identity and many of their beliefs. I say many because it wouldn't be surprising if after the events that occurred some may have had changes in their opinions and beliefs. But it would seem unlikely that the different races after synthesis are exactly the same as they where before synthesis. However that does not mean that they have lost their former identity and I really don't see where the "Artificial mental manipulation" takes place. So friends, can we please stop accusing each other and discuss the moral and scientific implications of the synthesis ending? thank you.
About the level of change brought about by the synthesis I have to say I am somewhere in the middle. I don't believe it is a horrible and devastating event changing the very essence of our life and taking away our identity, and I don't believe it is a small change that can be ignored. It does not change our identity but it does change us. Two completely different things. It does not change our self-awareness but it does enhance our ability to improve our understanding of others, which I believe is the reasons many think that synthesis blocks the ability of an individual to think as an individual, but as I said my understanding is that this "evolution" does not give a natural comprehension of other life forms to a person, but it strengthens that person's ability to understand other life forms through thought.
I don't think the synthesis ending was a happy one, although I chose it as my ending. You can't break the cycle and bring peace and know that the people of the galaxy would approve of your action both before and after it was taken.
I did not have nearly enough information to make the last decision. The game gives you three options with very limited information about each and the impacts it will have. Synthesis specially receives very little attention in terms of information. Therefore I was unsure of the impacts it would have. That I believe is the weakest point of the ending and perhaps the weakest point of the story in the mass effect trilogy.

Modifié par Farid-Yoda-N7, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:51 .

[Ieldra]

@Farid-Yoda-N7:
I agree with most of your points, but I don't think there was not enough information. Sure, there are lots of questions I wanted to ask, and - realistically - would have asked, but the general picture of Synthesis emerges quite clearly from what the Catalyst says in the EC. Also, what you show in an interactive visual medium is always constrained by the limitations of the medium. As opposed to a book, you can't have the pages-long exposition the scenario would warrant realistically. All you can do is paint a general picture and trust the audience to fill the blanks.

I'd venture to say that post-EC, everyone knows Synthesis is a good ending. We know that individuality isn't affected, that we won't become all the same, that cultural and species identity is retained, that the integrated technology is useful and not disfiguring, that the unsubtle green glowing eyes (as opposed to the subtle ones in the Normandy scene) and circuit overlays are just visual effects indicating a less visible change etc.. etc.. Some people just don't want it to be a good ending because they don't like how it's brought about and/or because of misplaced notions of biochemical purity, and so they use the gaps in the description as well as plain old conspiracy theory to insert as much bad stuff as they can get away with.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:32 .

[lillitheris]

The ‘general’ picture which is still unexplained after 4 months sure did emerge clearly.

[lillitheris]

Farid-Yoda-N7 wrote...

The races keep their racial identity and individuals keep their individuality. No ones thought process becomes mixed with Shepard's. Their consciousnesses does not change. Their ability to think and form individual opinions is not hindered. Organics and synthetics do change in a fundamental way but keep their identity and many of their beliefs. I say many because it wouldn't be surprising if after the events that occurred some may have had changes in their opinions and beliefs. But it would seem unlikely that the different races after synthesis are exactly the same as they where before synthesis. However that does not mean that they have lost their former identity and I really don't see where the "Artificial mental manipulation" takes place.

to the rescue. No need to worry about biology or physics. Just say it and it shall be.

In Destroy, nobody dies except for the Reapers — who totally are NOT gestalt intelligences, we discover, just advanced VIs — and the relays get repaired the next week. Also, the whole inevitable extinction spiel was BS. In addition, studying the Citadel ruins for 50 years enables developing the technology to achieve the benefits of Synthesis without the downsides for those persons who desire to take that step.

So friends, can we please stop accusing each other and discuss the
moral and scientific implications of the synthesis ending? thank you.

So, you know, NO — we can’t.

Modifié par lillitheris, 13 juillet 2012 - 09:36 .

[Ieldra]

The difference, my dear lillitheris, is that your Destroy scenario denies evidence from the games, while Farid-Yoda-N7 denies claims by others for which there was no evidence in the games.

Of course, *you* would say it's the same thing. No surprise here.

[I Am Robot]

lillitheris wrote...

Farid-Yoda-N7 wrote...

The races keep their racial identity and individuals keep their individuality. No ones thought process becomes mixed with Shepard's. Their consciousnesses does not change. Their ability to think and form individual opinions is not hindered. Organics and synthetics do change in a fundamental way but keep their identity and many of their beliefs. I say many because it wouldn't be surprising if after the events that occurred some may have had changes in their opinions and beliefs. But it would seem unlikely that the different races after synthesis are exactly the same as they where before synthesis. However that does not mean that they have lost their former identity and I really don't see where the "Artificial mental manipulation" takes place.

to the rescue. No need to worry about biology or physics. Just say it and it shall be.

I am a huge fan of science, specially physics myself, but science fiction does not have to explain everything that occures in its universe scientifically. I do agree though that mass effect has always offered good scientific explanation (within the scientific laws of the Mass effect universe) for what happens in the mass effect universe and that it would have been much beter if the same where true for the endings.

Modifié par Farid-Yoda-N7, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:01 .

[I Am Robot]

lillitheris wrote...

So friends, can we please stop accusing each other and discuss the
moral and scientific implications of the synthesis ending? thank you.

So, you know, NO — we can’t.

   I was trying to make this discussion more peaceful. I hope I did not offend anyone in the process. I apologize if I did.

Modifié par Farid-Yoda-N7, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:01 .

[TMA LIVE]

Farid-Yoda-N7 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Farid-Yoda-N7 wrote...

The races keep their racial identity and individuals keep their individuality. No ones thought process becomes mixed with Shepard's. Their consciousnesses does not change. Their ability to think and form individual opinions is not hindered. Organics and synthetics do change in a fundamental way but keep their identity and many of their beliefs. I say many because it wouldn't be surprising if after the events that occurred some may have had changes in their opinions and beliefs. But it would seem unlikely that the different races after synthesis are exactly the same as they where before synthesis. However that does not mean that they have lost their former identity and I really don't see where the "Artificial mental manipulation" takes place.

to the rescue. No need to worry about biology or physics. Just say it and it shall be.

I am a huge fan of science, specially physics myself, but science fiction does not have to explain everything that occures in its universe scientifically. I do agree though that mass effect has always offered good scientific explanation (within the scientific laws of the Mass effect universe) for what happens in the mass effect universe and that it would have been much beter if the same where true for the endings.

I do believe, out of all the endings, Synthesis is intentionally suppose to be a "magic" ending. If you read Evolution, which shows the Reapers using a similar technology (Energy that evolutions life forms into cybernetic creatures), Clarke's Third Law is always brought up. "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 13 juillet 2012 - 12:19 .

[Ieldra]

Farid-Yoda-N7 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

So friends, can we please stop accusing each other and discuss the
moral and scientific implications of the synthesis ending? thank you.

So, you know, NO — we can’t.

I was trying to make this discussion more peaceful. I hope I did not offend anyone in the process. I apologize if I did.

Not your fault. There are always people who want arguments to devolve. That way they'll be able to hide that they don't have an argument, just an opinion.

[Ieldra]

Farid-Yoda-N7 wrote...
I am a huge fan of science, specially physics myself, but science fiction does not have to explain everything that occures in its universe scientifically. I do agree though that mass effect has always offered good scientific explanation (within the scientific laws of the Mass effect universe) for what happens in the mass effect universe and that it would have been much beter if the same where true for the endings.

I think that the process of Synthesis is not so hard to explain with speculative technology on a small scale. It's hitting the whole galaxy at once that goes too far into "space magic" territory. I've always been resentful of SF that deliberately hides the absolutely awe-inspiring scope of something like a galaxy from the viewer/player, and the ME trilogy is one of the worst offenders in that regard I've ever seen. The endings, with this machine affecting a whole galaxy at once, add greatly to this problem. All of them, not just Synthesis.    

[Xilizhra]

It's genocide without the bodies.

So.... not... genocide?

Anyway, I've been considering another possible means for Shepard's survival, though it does require me to make something up out of whole cloth: the Catalyst archives Shepard somewhere inside its own system, forming a data copy (possibly compressed) of everything that Shepard is. Given the power to affect everything in the galaxy with its beams, that doesn't seem beyond its power or technology. The harder part is anyone downloading Shepard out of it... I'm not yet sure how anyone else would figure out what had happened or find Shepard from there on.

[Chashan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The difference, my dear lillitheris, is that your Destroy scenario denies evidence from the games, while Farid-Yoda-N7 denies claims by others for which there was no evidence in the games.

Of course, *you* would say it's the same thing. No surprise here.

You refer to the absence of evidence-scenario of Destroy?

Do come on, there: given the amount of suspension of disbelief required to swallow Blue's apotheosis and Green's utopeia, inferring the EDI-plaque to be merely commemorative of the loss of her avatar and a lack of a geth-slide to be simply just that - or the interpretation that those geth-programs that chose to inhabit quarian suits are spared - is not exactly too much of a stretch. Much less the thought that software, albeit complex, can be recreated.

[Mobius-Silent]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Nope. For all intents and purposes the original races have ceased to exist. They have become something else. What used to define them has been been mutilated beyond recognition.

Incorrect, as the EC ending cenematic shows, all the normal organic components of DNA continue to exist, there is no evidence that they have changed. The "new framework" is wrapped _around_ the existing DNA and works in concert. In synthetics their hardware is re-based on the "new framework" without the optional organic components.

 

AngryFrozenWater wrote... 
Their DNA has been changed to a radical new framework which not only changes their physiology but also their thought processes by mixing it with Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is"

This is the basis of the "capacity for empathy/emotion" that the framework bestows on synthetics, there is no reason it needs to confer this to organics as they who already posess this ability. (Though theoretically, those suffering from severe autism may suddenly be mostly cured)

 

AngryFrozenWater wrote...  
Synthetics also suffer similar changes. That would be no problem when it was by choice. But synthesis is inflicted upon them without their explicit consent. There was no opt-in and no opt-out. Not only is this a severe violation of the right of self-determination,

Correct, however this is a change in their _platform_ not in their software, it gives them implicit abilities they didn't have before. Those synthetics we have seen (save basic blue-box illegal AI) have not expressed any concern about augementations on their platform.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...   
it is also a denial of the right of the original races to exist. The good intentions behind the decision and the advantages of synthesis are all irrelevant, not only because of the above,

The original genetics remains in-place the "race" has not been changed only the available range of abilities. At worst it is augmentation without consent.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...   
but also because the resulting group is forced to co-exist by artificial mental manipulation, which has severe limitations to their free will.

 

There is no mental manuipulation, empathy created understanding between synthetic and organic, the peace between organics is due to the normal effects of surviving a war.

It's genocide without the bodies.

You are mistaken.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 13 juillet 2012 - 01:26 .