Apart from that, it's not true. Man cannot naturally fly, so he invented the airplane. Our nature leaves us susceptible to polio. Enter Salk. History is a long attempt to master our inborn nature.
A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)
Débuté par
Ieldra
, mai 20 2012 05:10
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#3352
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 08:29
Xamufam
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The problem with synthesis isn't moral/ethical, it's just nonsensical
[quote]Mojenator12345 wrote...
I see a lot of discussions lately getting wrapped around the axle
about whether it's wrong to force synthesis on the galaxy. Though there
are some very serious moral and ethical questions involved, those are
not the real problem with synthesis. At least as far as I am concerned,
the problem is that it is lazy, shoddy, and incoherent. It makes no
sense, even compared to everything else that happens in the endings.
The
theory is that synthesis merges organics and synthetics so that they no
longer feel separate from one another and want to destroy each other.
And yet, the EC seems to show (and people on BSN argue) that everyone
still is more or less the same afterwards, but for the glowing eyes. So
. . . if everyone is just the same as they were before, how did Starkid
meaningfully merge the distinction between synthetic and organic? He
just waved a wand and declared all organics synthetic and all synthetics
are organic? And all lived happily ever after?
Do the people
have wires and processors now? Do the geth have beating hearts in their
chests? Are human memories and cognitive abilities (and their previous
identities) still intact? Or have the conscious minds of all organics
been wiped out and replaced by a hybrid processor system (and what
happened to their thoughts and memories and previous identity)? Are all
the species now officially merged into a single species? Can they
still reproduce organically, or do they need to build people factories
to reproduce (if so, I will LOL re: Krogans and the Genophage)? Or do
Geth now reproduce organically? And if the answer is that everyone
still thinks and acts and reproduces in more or less the same way as
they did before, why should we believe that their propensity to go to
war with and destroy one another would be in any way altered?
And
if we're talking about restructuring entire organisms at the molecular
level, how the **** does a colored shockwave accomplish that? A beam of
light can decode, recode, and surgically modify the DNA and physical
structure of every organic in the galaxy instantaneously (not to mention
whatever it does to the synthetics)? Really? My god, if the Reapers
had that kind of technology, why bother flying around in spaceships and
shooting red beams at people? That seems inconceivably primitive. The
whole ME2 rebuilding Shepard thing was ridiculous, but at least that was
just one person and it took two years, a whole scientific team, and
****loads of money. That was silly, but (marginally) tolerable.
And
what happens in the future? The Reapers, after all, have been around
for tens of millions of years. Will all of the individuals of all the
races (or the one true race, if that is what everyone has become) be
unable to construct a new pure synthetic ever again? And, why not, what
would stop them? If they do, could conflict arise and the cycle start
again? And what about new organics? The Reapers always left primitive
organic species and societies alone. Does synthesis modify them as
well? I suppose the beam would have to identify species with the
potential to develop social intelligence and technology (given
everything else it does, hey why not, right?). What are the primatives
supposed to think about that? What happens when their synthetic parts
need tuning or repair? If synthesis cripples their ability to reproduce
organically, I suppose they'd all just die out. If synthesis does not
modify them, what's to stop them from maturing into a space-faring race
and then deciding that synthetics must be destroyed and restarting the
cycle?
The synthesis ending is just so much unexplained magical
bull**** stacked one layer on top of the other it's more than I can
handle. I am sure someone is going to reply that, hey, it's a sci-fi
game. What, you can believe in hyperdrives, but not this? My response
is, yes, I can believe in hyperdrives (and laser guns and biotics and
super hot blue space babes) but not this. Sure, you need to have a
certain amount of space magic to make a sci-fi space adventure go. But
you can make some effort to explain that (which Mass Effect does at
length) and implement it in a way that is internally consistent and
operates by rules that the audience can understand. ME's space travel
and pew pew and assorted space magic generally conform to this
approach. Synthesis drops out of left field at the last moment with no
meaningful explanation and breaks all of the rules. It smashes my
suspension of disbelief into oblivion.
The whole thing is just
utterly nonsensical. It's amazing to me that BW would ever put this in
the game, and stunning that they clearly believe that it is the optimal
ending. I could never choose it because it is insulting to me as a
member of their audience that they could foist such an ill-conceived,
half-baked piece of crap on us. Any of the other endings (including
Refuse) look good by comparison.
TLDR: Whatever difficult
moral issues synthesis raises, they pale in comparison to the insulting
stupidity and horrific implementation of the thing.
[quote]Mojenator12345 wrote...
I see a lot of discussions lately getting wrapped around the axle
about whether it's wrong to force synthesis on the galaxy. Though there
are some very serious moral and ethical questions involved, those are
not the real problem with synthesis. At least as far as I am concerned,
the problem is that it is lazy, shoddy, and incoherent. It makes no
sense, even compared to everything else that happens in the endings.
The
theory is that synthesis merges organics and synthetics so that they no
longer feel separate from one another and want to destroy each other.
And yet, the EC seems to show (and people on BSN argue) that everyone
still is more or less the same afterwards, but for the glowing eyes. So
. . . if everyone is just the same as they were before, how did Starkid
meaningfully merge the distinction between synthetic and organic? He
just waved a wand and declared all organics synthetic and all synthetics
are organic? And all lived happily ever after?
Do the people
have wires and processors now? Do the geth have beating hearts in their
chests? Are human memories and cognitive abilities (and their previous
identities) still intact? Or have the conscious minds of all organics
been wiped out and replaced by a hybrid processor system (and what
happened to their thoughts and memories and previous identity)? Are all
the species now officially merged into a single species? Can they
still reproduce organically, or do they need to build people factories
to reproduce (if so, I will LOL re: Krogans and the Genophage)? Or do
Geth now reproduce organically? And if the answer is that everyone
still thinks and acts and reproduces in more or less the same way as
they did before, why should we believe that their propensity to go to
war with and destroy one another would be in any way altered?
And
if we're talking about restructuring entire organisms at the molecular
level, how the **** does a colored shockwave accomplish that? A beam of
light can decode, recode, and surgically modify the DNA and physical
structure of every organic in the galaxy instantaneously (not to mention
whatever it does to the synthetics)? Really? My god, if the Reapers
had that kind of technology, why bother flying around in spaceships and
shooting red beams at people? That seems inconceivably primitive. The
whole ME2 rebuilding Shepard thing was ridiculous, but at least that was
just one person and it took two years, a whole scientific team, and
****loads of money. That was silly, but (marginally) tolerable.
And
what happens in the future? The Reapers, after all, have been around
for tens of millions of years. Will all of the individuals of all the
races (or the one true race, if that is what everyone has become) be
unable to construct a new pure synthetic ever again? And, why not, what
would stop them? If they do, could conflict arise and the cycle start
again? And what about new organics? The Reapers always left primitive
organic species and societies alone. Does synthesis modify them as
well? I suppose the beam would have to identify species with the
potential to develop social intelligence and technology (given
everything else it does, hey why not, right?). What are the primatives
supposed to think about that? What happens when their synthetic parts
need tuning or repair? If synthesis cripples their ability to reproduce
organically, I suppose they'd all just die out. If synthesis does not
modify them, what's to stop them from maturing into a space-faring race
and then deciding that synthetics must be destroyed and restarting the
cycle?
The synthesis ending is just so much unexplained magical
bull**** stacked one layer on top of the other it's more than I can
handle. I am sure someone is going to reply that, hey, it's a sci-fi
game. What, you can believe in hyperdrives, but not this? My response
is, yes, I can believe in hyperdrives (and laser guns and biotics and
super hot blue space babes) but not this. Sure, you need to have a
certain amount of space magic to make a sci-fi space adventure go. But
you can make some effort to explain that (which Mass Effect does at
length) and implement it in a way that is internally consistent and
operates by rules that the audience can understand. ME's space travel
and pew pew and assorted space magic generally conform to this
approach. Synthesis drops out of left field at the last moment with no
meaningful explanation and breaks all of the rules. It smashes my
suspension of disbelief into oblivion.
The whole thing is just
utterly nonsensical. It's amazing to me that BW would ever put this in
the game, and stunning that they clearly believe that it is the optimal
ending. I could never choose it because it is insulting to me as a
member of their audience that they could foist such an ill-conceived,
half-baked piece of crap on us. Any of the other endings (including
Refuse) look good by comparison.
TLDR: Whatever difficult
moral issues synthesis raises, they pale in comparison to the insulting
stupidity and horrific implementation of the thing.
Modifié par Troxa, 15 juillet 2012 - 08:36 .
#3353
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 08:51
Dr. Doctor
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I like Synthesis as a concept, but it's introduction in ME3 really seems sudden. If there was more of a focus on transhumanism earlier on (Shepard and the Lazarus Project comes to mind) then it would work a little better. The way it's written it seems like a third option created for the sake of having a third option.
#3354
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 08:51
Luxure
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Ieldra2 wrote...
LOL. You make a lot of assumptions. Yeah, we've been doing that because we've had no other choice, and we've been rather lucky for surviving. ME3 presents us with a scenario where that might not be enough any more. Apart from that, I recommend being not so fast with calling something stupid. I get that Synthesis evokes some rather emotional responses, but they're not good arguments.Luxure wrote...
Stick to our nature as given and hope for the best ? I'm twelve, and what is this ? We've been sticking to our nature as given for millenia, and we didn't have to "hope for the best". Seriously dude. I assume you don't really enjoy life. Stupid... just stupid.
Why do you say we've been lucky for surviving ? That's just plain idiotic. Of course we weren't lucky. We adapted. That's what we do. We adapt. "We will fight, we will sacrifice, and we will find a way. That's what humans do."
~ Shepard
P.S.
"We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything. " ~ Sovereign
And you want to join mind and body with them ? With machines that think of themselves as the pinnacle of evolution ? Living beings created them, meaning that there was someone more advanced than they were, and they feed me this bullcrap about how they are the pinnacle of evolution and existence ? Please.
P.S. 2
"
We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it. " ~ Sovereign
They see us as chaos. Chaos, imagine that. Yes, we might be a chaos, but it's a controlled chaos, and we do things our way. We don't wake up every day, to please some unknown super machine bent on harvesting every life in the galaxy until the end of time.
P.S. 3
"
Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding. " ~ Sovereign
They think of us as nothing more than blood and flesh. Some meatbags, incapable of understanding them. The thing is, they didn't even let us understand them, they just assumed we can't understand them. See where I'm pointing here ? They're the ignorant ones.
I'll stop here now. The post is getting kinda of big.
Edit : Be careful to highlight the blank spaces if it's going to be the case.
Modifié par Luxure, 15 juillet 2012 - 08:52 .
#3355
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 08:57
DGMockingJay
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Mojenator12345 wrote...
And if we're talking about restructuring entire organisms at the molecular level, how the **** does a colored shockwave accomplish that? A beam of light can decode, recode, and surgically modify the DNA and physical structure of every organic in the galaxy instantaneously (not to mention whatever it does to the synthetics)? Really? My god, if the Reapers had that kind of technology, why bother flying around in spaceships and shooting red beams at people? That seems inconceivably primitive. The whole ME2 rebuilding Shepard thing was ridiculous, but at least that was just one person and it took two years, a whole scientific team, and ****loads of money. That was silly, but (marginally) tolerable.
I lost my **** at this!!! Good point u got!!
#3356
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 09:09
Ieldra
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@Luxure:
Ask any biologist. Adaptation is random. We had the luck of getting fitting adaptations at the right time. Ask any psychologist - hell, ask your doctor how much damage our stone age legacy is doing to us today. This is not about actions. The whole point is that we don't have control over our evolution, and that in order to survive, we might be required to take control over that which we left to random chance so far.
BTW, just to jump on the "stupid" bandwagon: Shepard's speech in Arrival is one of the most stupid things in the Mass Effect trilogy. I found it annoying as well that I couldn't skip it. That self-righteous defiance must be one of the most idiotically ideological speeches in video game history. I always replace it in my mind with a quietly determined "We shall see...".
Edit:
Have I said that I hate almost all of Shepard's speeches? Ugh. At least in ME2 I can skip them.
Ask any biologist. Adaptation is random. We had the luck of getting fitting adaptations at the right time. Ask any psychologist - hell, ask your doctor how much damage our stone age legacy is doing to us today. This is not about actions. The whole point is that we don't have control over our evolution, and that in order to survive, we might be required to take control over that which we left to random chance so far.
BTW, just to jump on the "stupid" bandwagon: Shepard's speech in Arrival is one of the most stupid things in the Mass Effect trilogy. I found it annoying as well that I couldn't skip it. That self-righteous defiance must be one of the most idiotically ideological speeches in video game history. I always replace it in my mind with a quietly determined "We shall see...".
Edit:
Have I said that I hate almost all of Shepard's speeches? Ugh. At least in ME2 I can skip them.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 juillet 2012 - 09:14 .
#3357
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 09:11
Ieldra
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There was no explicit focus, but Shepard himself was an embodiment of the concept, in spite of the effort some writer made to get his anti-transhumanist agenda into the game by redefining the term.Dr. Doctor wrote...
I like Synthesis as a concept, but it's introduction in ME3 really seems sudden. If there was more of a focus on transhumanism earlier on (Shepard and the Lazarus Project comes to mind) then it would work a little better. The way it's written it seems like a third option created for the sake of having a third option.
#3358
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 09:14
Luxure
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Maybe you can still be saved. Maybe you can still see the truth, but I'm no Shepard, I'll leave you to your Synthesis. Rejoice!
P.S. Stupid synthesis is stupid
WOLOLO
P.S. Stupid synthesis is stupid
WOLOLO
#3359
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 09:15
Ieldra
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Luxure, your objections appear to be rooted in religion....if so, I recommend taking that somewhere else.
#3360
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 09:19
Luxure
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I'm no religious person, I'm an atheist actually. Problem is, I just enjoy natural evolution, not forced evolution.
#3361
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 09:58
flemm
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jtav wrote...
Apart from that, it's not true. Man cannot naturally fly, so he invented the airplane. Our nature leaves us susceptible to polio. Enter Salk. History is a long attempt to master our inborn nature.
Well, not if we consider that our primary adaptation is to be more adaptable, including the capacity to be creative, solve problems, be inventive etc.
But some type of "synthesis" could theoretically play into that. On the whole, I basically agree with Dr. Doctor that this concept (and really the ending as a whole, not just synthesis) is inadequately developed over the course of the rest of the story.
Still an interesting idea to play around with and analyse, though.
Modifié par flemm, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:05 .
#3362
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 10:08
Wayning_Star
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Luxure wrote...
I'm no religious person, I'm an atheist actually. Problem is, I just enjoy natural evolution, not forced evolution.
enjoy, or demand that natural evolution isn't forced, but the very manner in which it's incorporated as nature, creatures who evolve have very little choice in the matter. Just like in the MEU, there is little choice that many are devoured by the evolution of machines and/or supposed extra natural events that make it possible. organics + synthetics= evolution...don't you just hate it when that happens...oh, I forgot, it's un natural to invent and utilize everchanging technology..that doesn't evolve..ever,or become sentient/sapient/individuals who decide to be part of nature, or accepted as such amongst their peers.
Never mind.. lol (
made 
do it)
#3363
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 10:11
Luxure
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Wayning_Star wrote...
Luxure wrote...
I'm no religious person, I'm an atheist actually. Problem is, I just enjoy natural evolution, not forced evolution.
enjoy, or demand that natural evolution isn't forced, but the very manner in which it's incorporated as nature, creatures who evolve have very little choice in the matter. Just like in the MEU, there is little choice that many are devoured by the evolution of machines and/or supposed extra natural events that make it possible. organics + synthetics= evolution...don't you just hate it when that happens...oh, I forgot, it's un natural to invent and utilize everchanging technology..that doesn't evolve..ever,or become sentient/sapient/individuals who decide to be part of nature, or accepted as such amongst their peers.
Never mind.. lol (
I didn't understand a thing.
Modifié par Luxure, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:14 .
#3364
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 10:14
Wayning_Star
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Luxure wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
Luxure wrote...
I'm no religious person, I'm an atheist actually. Problem is, I just enjoy natural evolution, not forced evolution.
enjoy, or demand that natural evolution isn't forced, but the very manner in which it's incorporated as nature, creatures who evolve have very little choice in the matter. Just like in the MEU, there is little choice that many are devoured by the evolution of machines and/or supposed extra natural events that make it possible. organics + synthetics= evolution...don't you just hate it when that happens...oh, I forgot, it's un natural to invent and utilize everchanging technology..that doesn't evolve..ever,or become sentient/sapient/individuals who decide to be part of nature, or accepted as such amongst their peers.
Never mind.. lol (
https://forums.playf...4535046b89991fe
I didn't understand a thing.
then, how does it work?, your comment about synthesis being anything other than what it is? You seem dead set against evolution, but argue as natural evolution is the only way to go. What is "natural"?
#3365
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 10:19
lillitheris
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Xilizhra wrote...
It's badly presented by the Catalyst, but what we actually see in-game in the final cutscene is good. If anything needs to be headcanoned, it's the Catalyst explaining more.
1. The final cutscene isn’t necessarily good. It looks like it might be…but maybe they’ve all just been brainwashed.
2. The end result is irrelevant. If at the time of making the decision it looks like the choice will be a bad one…you don’t pick it.
3. Even if it were presented better, the results would still be unknowable.
4. Even if the results weren’t unknowable, they’d still be nonsense.
#3366
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 10:23
lillitheris
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jtav wrote...
Apart from that, it's not true. Man cannot naturally fly, so he invented the airplane. Our nature leaves us susceptible to polio. Enter Salk. History is a long attempt to master our inborn nature.
Not to detract from your point but the polio vaccine, of course, works exactly because of our ‘inborn nature’.
#3367
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 10:31
HK-90210
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My problem with Synthesis isn't the supposed non-sensicalness to it, or any of the themes it brings onto the table. Those are all fine and dandy to think about. My problem with it is that, along with Control, it ties Shepard's fate directly to the endings themselves. I think that the EMS rating would have been a much better way of deciding if Shepard lives or dies. That way, I'd be much more inclined to pick either of them as an option. As it is, there's only a few Shepards of mine that are willing to make either of those choices. So it just feels like I'm missing out on 2/3rds of the endings, which sucks.
I'm still working on a good headcannon that allows for Shepard to live in Synthesis. Best I got is that, since his/her body was used to spread the change in the galaxy's unified DNA, a bit of Shepard lives in the cells of every single being, synthetic or organic. So would this allow for Shepard to be remade using the new DNA? Would his/her memories be salvagable in any way? They could use Reaper tech, afterall. It doesn't seem too inplausible to me. Afterall, if we've already handwaved the sense of the Synthesis ending itself, along with the Lazarus project....
Also(excuse the god-awful romance-orientatedness), would Shepard now be able to have children with their (once)dextro-DNA romances? That seemed to be the coolest door openned by the Synthesis ending, at least to me. The unification of the galaxy on a molecular level is a really intriguing idea to me.
Edit: Ooohh, and along those same lines, are the Geth and other synthetics now totally open for asari to mate with?
Giggitty....
I'm still working on a good headcannon that allows for Shepard to live in Synthesis. Best I got is that, since his/her body was used to spread the change in the galaxy's unified DNA, a bit of Shepard lives in the cells of every single being, synthetic or organic. So would this allow for Shepard to be remade using the new DNA? Would his/her memories be salvagable in any way? They could use Reaper tech, afterall. It doesn't seem too inplausible to me. Afterall, if we've already handwaved the sense of the Synthesis ending itself, along with the Lazarus project....
Also(excuse the god-awful romance-orientatedness), would Shepard now be able to have children with their (once)dextro-DNA romances? That seemed to be the coolest door openned by the Synthesis ending, at least to me. The unification of the galaxy on a molecular level is a really intriguing idea to me.
Edit: Ooohh, and along those same lines, are the Geth and other synthetics now totally open for asari to mate with?
Giggitty....
Modifié par CastonFolarus, 15 juillet 2012 - 10:42 .
#3368
Posté 15 juillet 2012 - 11:21
Wayning_Star
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CastonFolarus wrote...
My problem with Synthesis isn't the supposed non-sensicalness to it, or any of the themes it brings onto the table. Those are all fine and dandy to think about. My problem with it is that, along with Control, it ties Shepard's fate directly to the endings themselves. I think that the EMS rating would have been a much better way of deciding if Shepard lives or dies. That way, I'd be much more inclined to pick either of them as an option. As it is, there's only a few Shepards of mine that are willing to make either of those choices. So it just feels like I'm missing out on 2/3rds of the endings, which sucks.
I'm still working on a good headcannon that allows for Shepard to live in Synthesis. Best I got is that, since his/her body was used to spread the change in the galaxy's unified DNA, a bit of Shepard lives in the cells of every single being, synthetic or organic. So would this allow for Shepard to be remade using the new DNA? Would his/her memories be salvagable in any way? They could use Reaper tech, afterall. It doesn't seem too inplausible to me. Afterall, if we've already handwaved the sense of the Synthesis ending itself, along with the Lazarus project....
Also(excuse the god-awful romance-orientatedness), would Shepard now be able to have children with their (once)dextro-DNA romances? That seemed to be the coolest door openned by the Synthesis ending, at least to me. The unification of the galaxy on a molecular level is a really intriguing idea to me.
Edit: Ooohh, and along those same lines, are the Geth and other synthetics now totally open for asari to mate with?
1. I think that the EMS rating has more to do with how much destruction can be prevented in time it takes to come to some decision on the reaper threat. If you have a high one, that should mean you can beat back the reaper horde much better,lessening their impact generally. If it's not, they they'll 'ride down on earth' taking a heavier toll on the place and you'll lose assets. Same really with the who MEU, when it comes to 'brute force' and resiliency of the military strength. The non sensical nature of advanced technology is a normal reaction for those observing it from a vacumm, that is, not fully educated/informed to it. We all cannot be experts, as it were, but will still utiilize advanced tech when it serves purpose, generally. If we have the smarts to use it, and and that may entail. Shepard is an intergral part of the fate of the MEU, he took the job..twice, if I remember correctly.. Three times is asking an awful lot of any hero?
2 I try not to 'head canon' the situation too much, as it becomes more education than entertainment. Simply put, the synthesis is the machine organic answer, not necessarily the best or right choice. It's really user dependent. I used it cause the game enviornment seemed to call for it, that is, many if not most in the MEU seemed to like that idea. Like the IM said, Shepard (and us as his/her inner self:) was just a tool to get this accomplished. The other endings, including walk away just seemed like they didn't end the conflict of interest for all beings.The EC's just glosses over them with side notes how this or that just worked out,etc.. didn't fit with the Shepard 'go get'em' ethos.
3 I dunno about cross pollenation, but if it trips the triggers, I guess any canon romance is acceptable, if the genes don't get confused.
#3369
Posté 16 juillet 2012 - 12:22
AngryFrozenWater
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[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Nope. For all intents and purposes the original races have ceased to exist. They have become something else. What used to define them has been been mutilated beyond recognition.[/quote]
Incorrect, as the EC ending cenematic shows, all the normal organic components of DNA continue to exist, there is no evidence that they have changed. The "new framework" is wrapped _around_ the existing DNA and works in concert. In synthetics their hardware is re-based on the "new framework" without the optional organic components.[/quote]
If this radical mutilation, which causes this new framework, does not change anything significantly then it does not provide any significant function. You use the word optional. Something that is optional denotes choice, but I am afraid that those infected by the new hardware and required interfaces to their brain didn't have that choice.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Their DNA has been changed to a radical new framework which not only changes their physiology but also their thought processes by mixing it with Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is"[/quote]
This is the basis of the "capacity for empathy/emotion" that the framework bestows on synthetics, there is no reason it needs to confer this to organics as they who already posess this ability. (Though theoretically, those suffering from severe autism may suddenly be mostly cured)[/quote]
You tell me that this radical mutilation which does not change anything significantly may cure autism. Autism affects information processing in the brain by altering how nerve cells and their synapses connect and organize. Ah. So this radical mutilation directly alters thought processes. That's what Shepard's essence, which was thrown into the mix, was about. Whether this essence mix applies to ex-synthetics only or not remains to be seen, especially given the implications for the organic brain, which you discussed. Thanks for the confirmation.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Synthetics also suffer similar changes. That would be no problem when it was by choice. But synthesis is inflicted upon them without their explicit consent. There was no opt-in and no opt-out. Not only is this a severe violation of the right of self-determination, [/quote]
Correct, however this is a change in their _platform_ not in their software, it gives them implicit abilities they didn't have before. Those synthetics we have seen (save basic blue-box illegal AI) have not expressed any concern about augementations on their platform.[/quote]
You made already clear that this also changes thought processes (of ex-synthetics only or not). That may explain why they didn't "expressed any concern about augmentations on their platform".
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
it is also a denial of the right of the original races to exist. The good intentions behind the decision and the advantages of synthesis are all irrelevant, not only because of the above, [/quote]
The original genetics remains in-place the "race" has not been changed only the available range of abilities. At worst it is augmentation without consent.[/quote]
Yes. You have explained that these radical mutilations change thought processes and that the new non-optional hardware requires connection to the brain. It always puzzles me why the changes need to be denied. It is as if there is something to hide. But at least you are clear that these changes were made without consent. One doesn't hear that often on these shores.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
but also because the resulting group is forced to co-exist by artificial mental manipulation, which has severe limitations to their free will.[/quote]
There is no mental manuipulation, empathy created understanding between synthetic and organic, the peace between organics is due to the normal effects of surviving a war.[/quote]
You have just made it clear how it works. No need to deny it now. Look. You cannot have it both ways. It either changes the physiology and thought processes or it doesn't. It appears that when obvious conclusion can be made then you crawl back. If there is nothing to worry about then there is no reason to deny it. After all, the radical changes must have an effect, otherwise it wouldn't accomplish anything close to solving the "chaos".
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It's genocide without the bodies.[/quote]
You are mistaken.[/quote]
Their physiology and/or their thought processes have changed. That can can only mean existing races have ceased to exist and be transformed into something else, without those infected objecting. To service this new state, it appears to me, that physicians and neuroscientist need to be retrained after synthesis. It would be interesting to hear from them what exactly didn't change significantly.
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Nope. For all intents and purposes the original races have ceased to exist. They have become something else. What used to define them has been been mutilated beyond recognition.[/quote]
Incorrect, as the EC ending cenematic shows, all the normal organic components of DNA continue to exist, there is no evidence that they have changed. The "new framework" is wrapped _around_ the existing DNA and works in concert. In synthetics their hardware is re-based on the "new framework" without the optional organic components.[/quote]
If this radical mutilation, which causes this new framework, does not change anything significantly then it does not provide any significant function. You use the word optional. Something that is optional denotes choice, but I am afraid that those infected by the new hardware and required interfaces to their brain didn't have that choice.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Their DNA has been changed to a radical new framework which not only changes their physiology but also their thought processes by mixing it with Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is"[/quote]
This is the basis of the "capacity for empathy/emotion" that the framework bestows on synthetics, there is no reason it needs to confer this to organics as they who already posess this ability. (Though theoretically, those suffering from severe autism may suddenly be mostly cured)[/quote]
You tell me that this radical mutilation which does not change anything significantly may cure autism. Autism affects information processing in the brain by altering how nerve cells and their synapses connect and organize. Ah. So this radical mutilation directly alters thought processes. That's what Shepard's essence, which was thrown into the mix, was about. Whether this essence mix applies to ex-synthetics only or not remains to be seen, especially given the implications for the organic brain, which you discussed. Thanks for the confirmation.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Synthetics also suffer similar changes. That would be no problem when it was by choice. But synthesis is inflicted upon them without their explicit consent. There was no opt-in and no opt-out. Not only is this a severe violation of the right of self-determination, [/quote]
Correct, however this is a change in their _platform_ not in their software, it gives them implicit abilities they didn't have before. Those synthetics we have seen (save basic blue-box illegal AI) have not expressed any concern about augementations on their platform.[/quote]
You made already clear that this also changes thought processes (of ex-synthetics only or not). That may explain why they didn't "expressed any concern about augmentations on their platform".
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
it is also a denial of the right of the original races to exist. The good intentions behind the decision and the advantages of synthesis are all irrelevant, not only because of the above, [/quote]
The original genetics remains in-place the "race" has not been changed only the available range of abilities. At worst it is augmentation without consent.[/quote]
Yes. You have explained that these radical mutilations change thought processes and that the new non-optional hardware requires connection to the brain. It always puzzles me why the changes need to be denied. It is as if there is something to hide. But at least you are clear that these changes were made without consent. One doesn't hear that often on these shores.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
but also because the resulting group is forced to co-exist by artificial mental manipulation, which has severe limitations to their free will.[/quote]
There is no mental manuipulation, empathy created understanding between synthetic and organic, the peace between organics is due to the normal effects of surviving a war.[/quote]
You have just made it clear how it works. No need to deny it now. Look. You cannot have it both ways. It either changes the physiology and thought processes or it doesn't. It appears that when obvious conclusion can be made then you crawl back. If there is nothing to worry about then there is no reason to deny it. After all, the radical changes must have an effect, otherwise it wouldn't accomplish anything close to solving the "chaos".
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It's genocide without the bodies.[/quote]
You are mistaken.[/quote]
Their physiology and/or their thought processes have changed. That can can only mean existing races have ceased to exist and be transformed into something else, without those infected objecting. To service this new state, it appears to me, that physicians and neuroscientist need to be retrained after synthesis. It would be interesting to hear from them what exactly didn't change significantly.
Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 16 juillet 2012 - 12:48 .
#3370
Posté 16 juillet 2012 - 12:58
Wayning_Star
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- Members
- 8 022 messages
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Nope. For all intents and purposes the original races have ceased to exist. They have become something else. What used to define them has been been mutilated beyond recognition.[/quote]
Incorrect, as the EC ending cenematic shows, all the normal organic components of DNA continue to exist, there is no evidence that they have changed. The "new framework" is wrapped _around_ the existing DNA and works in concert. In synthetics their hardware is re-based on the "new framework" without the optional organic components.[/quote]
If this radical mutilation, which causes this new framework, does not change anything significantly then it does not provide any significant function. You use the word optional. Something that is optional denotes choice, but I am afraid that those infected by the new hardware and required interfaces to their brain didn't have that choice.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Their DNA has been changed to a radical new framework which not only changes their physiology but also their thought processes by mixing it with Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is"[/quote]
This is the basis of the "capacity for empathy/emotion" that the framework bestows on synthetics, there is no reason it needs to confer this to organics as they who already posess this ability. (Though theoretically, those suffering from severe autism may suddenly be mostly cured)[/quote]
You tell me that this radical mutilation which does not change anything significantly may cure autism. Autism affects information processing in the brain by altering how nerve cells and their synapses connect and organize. Ah. So this radical mutilation directly alters thought processes. That's what Shepard's essence, which was thrown into the mix, was about. Whether this essence mix applies to ex-synthetics only or not remains to be seen, especially given the implications for the organic brain, which you discussed. Thanks for the confirmation.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Synthetics also suffer similar changes. That would be no problem when it was by choice. But synthesis is inflicted upon them without their explicit consent. There was no opt-in and no opt-out. Not only is this a severe violation of the right of self-determination, [/quote]
Correct, however this is a change in their _platform_ not in their software, it gives them implicit abilities they didn't have before. Those synthetics we have seen (save basic blue-box illegal AI) have not expressed any concern about augementations on their platform.[/quote]
You made already clear that this also changes thought processes (of ex-synthetics only or not). That may explain why they didn't "expressed any concern about augmentations on their platform".
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
it is also a denial of the right of the original races to exist. The good intentions behind the decision and the advantages of synthesis are all irrelevant, not only because of the above, [/quote]
The original genetics remains in-place the "race" has not been changed only the available range of abilities. At worst it is augmentation without consent.[/quote]
Yes. You have explained that these radical mutilations change thought processes and that the new non-optional hardware requires connection to the brain. It always puzzles me why the changes need to be denied. It is as if there is something to hide. But at least you are clear that these changes were made without consent. One doesn't hear that often on these shores.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
but also because the resulting group is forced to co-exist by artificial mental manipulation, which has severe limitations to their free will.[/quote]
There is no mental manuipulation, empathy created understanding between synthetic and organic, the peace between organics is due to the normal effects of surviving a war.[/quote]
You have just made it clear how it works. No need to deny it now. Look. You cannot have it both ways. It either changes the physiology and thought processes or it doesn't. It appears that when obvious conclusion can be made then you crawl back. If there is nothing to worry about then there is no reason to deny it. After all, the radical changes must have an effect, otherwise it wouldn't accomplish anything close to solving the "chaos".
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It's genocide without the bodies.[/quote]
You are mistaken.[/quote]
Their physiology and/or their thought processes have changed. That can can only mean existing races have ceased to exist and be transformed into something else, without those infected objecting. To service this new state, it appears to me, that physicians and neuroscientist need to be retrained after synthesis. It would be interesting to hear from them what exactly didn't change significantly.
[/quote]
technically, we don't know exactly what is changed there with syntheisis, so the hyperbolic reaction to it is extreme. It was OK to limit the lifespan/birthrate/probably existence of the Krogan, but to synthesize genes is a morally reprehensealbe ethics violation? No test tube babies in the MEU folks!! Poor Miranda is now a cast-out..and Sheps trusty implants are immoral cheats on the natural order of things. Bummer
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Nope. For all intents and purposes the original races have ceased to exist. They have become something else. What used to define them has been been mutilated beyond recognition.[/quote]
Incorrect, as the EC ending cenematic shows, all the normal organic components of DNA continue to exist, there is no evidence that they have changed. The "new framework" is wrapped _around_ the existing DNA and works in concert. In synthetics their hardware is re-based on the "new framework" without the optional organic components.[/quote]
If this radical mutilation, which causes this new framework, does not change anything significantly then it does not provide any significant function. You use the word optional. Something that is optional denotes choice, but I am afraid that those infected by the new hardware and required interfaces to their brain didn't have that choice.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Their DNA has been changed to a radical new framework which not only changes their physiology but also their thought processes by mixing it with Shepard's "essence of who [he/she] is and what [he/she] is"[/quote]
This is the basis of the "capacity for empathy/emotion" that the framework bestows on synthetics, there is no reason it needs to confer this to organics as they who already posess this ability. (Though theoretically, those suffering from severe autism may suddenly be mostly cured)[/quote]
You tell me that this radical mutilation which does not change anything significantly may cure autism. Autism affects information processing in the brain by altering how nerve cells and their synapses connect and organize. Ah. So this radical mutilation directly alters thought processes. That's what Shepard's essence, which was thrown into the mix, was about. Whether this essence mix applies to ex-synthetics only or not remains to be seen, especially given the implications for the organic brain, which you discussed. Thanks for the confirmation.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
Synthetics also suffer similar changes. That would be no problem when it was by choice. But synthesis is inflicted upon them without their explicit consent. There was no opt-in and no opt-out. Not only is this a severe violation of the right of self-determination, [/quote]
Correct, however this is a change in their _platform_ not in their software, it gives them implicit abilities they didn't have before. Those synthetics we have seen (save basic blue-box illegal AI) have not expressed any concern about augementations on their platform.[/quote]
You made already clear that this also changes thought processes (of ex-synthetics only or not). That may explain why they didn't "expressed any concern about augmentations on their platform".
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
it is also a denial of the right of the original races to exist. The good intentions behind the decision and the advantages of synthesis are all irrelevant, not only because of the above, [/quote]
The original genetics remains in-place the "race" has not been changed only the available range of abilities. At worst it is augmentation without consent.[/quote]
Yes. You have explained that these radical mutilations change thought processes and that the new non-optional hardware requires connection to the brain. It always puzzles me why the changes need to be denied. It is as if there is something to hide. But at least you are clear that these changes were made without consent. One doesn't hear that often on these shores.
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
but also because the resulting group is forced to co-exist by artificial mental manipulation, which has severe limitations to their free will.[/quote]
There is no mental manuipulation, empathy created understanding between synthetic and organic, the peace between organics is due to the normal effects of surviving a war.[/quote]
You have just made it clear how it works. No need to deny it now. Look. You cannot have it both ways. It either changes the physiology and thought processes or it doesn't. It appears that when obvious conclusion can be made then you crawl back. If there is nothing to worry about then there is no reason to deny it. After all, the radical changes must have an effect, otherwise it wouldn't accomplish anything close to solving the "chaos".
[quote]Mobius-Silent wrote...
[quote]AngryFrozenWater wrote...
It's genocide without the bodies.[/quote]
You are mistaken.[/quote]
Their physiology and/or their thought processes have changed. That can can only mean existing races have ceased to exist and be transformed into something else, without those infected objecting. To service this new state, it appears to me, that physicians and neuroscientist need to be retrained after synthesis. It would be interesting to hear from them what exactly didn't change significantly.
[/quote]
technically, we don't know exactly what is changed there with syntheisis, so the hyperbolic reaction to it is extreme. It was OK to limit the lifespan/birthrate/probably existence of the Krogan, but to synthesize genes is a morally reprehensealbe ethics violation? No test tube babies in the MEU folks!! Poor Miranda is now a cast-out..and Sheps trusty implants are immoral cheats on the natural order of things. Bummer
#3371
Posté 16 juillet 2012 - 02:41
Heeden
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- Members
- 856 messages
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If this radical mutilation, which causes this new framework, does not change anything significantly then it does not provide any significant function. You use the word optional. Something that is optional denotes choice, but I am afraid that those infected by the new hardware and required interfaces to their brain didn't have that choice.
The bits I've bolded I consider to be pure head-canon with little-to-no basis in the endings or relatable ME lore.
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
You tell me that this radical mutilation which does not change anything significantly may cure autism. Autism affects information processing in the brain by altering how nerve cells and their synapses connect and organize. Ah. So this radical mutilation directly alters thought processes. That's what Shepard's essence, which was thrown into the mix, was about. Whether this essence mix applies to ex-synthetics only or not remains to be seen, especially given the implications for the organic brain, which you discussed. Thanks for the confirmation.
I think Mobius was over-enthusiastic when saying autism would be "mostly cured". I think it would be more accurate to say the ability to interact perfectly with technology would massively alleviate the social problems experienced by people on the autistic spectrum.
#3372
Posté 16 juillet 2012 - 03:41
dbkkk
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- Members
- 99 messages
Wow people are really theory-crafting and extrapolating some wild stuff from just a few lines of dialog and some cut scenes. Some interpretations are interesting, some hilarious, and some are becoming histrionic. Yuck. Can't we all agree that the writers messed things up and there is no going back. Besides the whole space magic principle for reconstructing the coding substrate of living beings is beyond the pale. It is bad enough using space magic to implement the destroy ending. Probably the control ending needs the least 'space magic'.
I see a lot of posts that assume extravagant propositions with no basis in the actual dialog of the game. Most of these people argue stridently based on some sort of fear or hatred or awe of the concept when the concept itself is so ill-defined, so they end up making things up. For example there isn't a single person who I have talked to in real life who played the game who thought the EC implied direct mind linkage to the Reapers. Or even loss of individuality. Lol.
The funniest thing is how people argue about endings that are knock-offs of the Deux Ex endings which ironically were better written and fit within the context of that game which was all about AIs and human cybernetics, etc.
Sorry but the ME3 writers intentionally mailed it in and I guess it was due to internal pressures between EA and Bioware. So they stole the ending from another video game and we got suck with shaking our heads.
I see a lot of posts that assume extravagant propositions with no basis in the actual dialog of the game. Most of these people argue stridently based on some sort of fear or hatred or awe of the concept when the concept itself is so ill-defined, so they end up making things up. For example there isn't a single person who I have talked to in real life who played the game who thought the EC implied direct mind linkage to the Reapers. Or even loss of individuality. Lol.
The funniest thing is how people argue about endings that are knock-offs of the Deux Ex endings which ironically were better written and fit within the context of that game which was all about AIs and human cybernetics, etc.
Sorry but the ME3 writers intentionally mailed it in and I guess it was due to internal pressures between EA and Bioware. So they stole the ending from another video game and we got suck with shaking our heads.
#3373
Posté 16 juillet 2012 - 05:43
Ieldra
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- Members
- 25 190 messages
I am speculating about *communication* via mental networking, based on the Catalyst's statement "the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us". This implies neither a permanent mindlink, nor a forced conjoining of minds or loss of individuality. Of course that gets taken out of context by some.dbkkk wrote...
I see a lot of posts that assume extravagant propositions with no basis in the actual dialog of the game. Most of these people argue stridently based on some sort of fear or hatred or awe of the concept when the concept itself is so ill-defined, so they end up making things up. For example there isn't a single person who I have talked to in real life who played the game who thought the EC implied direct mind linkage to the Reapers. Or even loss of individuality. Lol.
#3374
Posté 16 juillet 2012 - 06:42
DirtyPhoenix
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- 3 938 messages
DGMockingJay wrote...
Mojenator12345 wrote...
And if we're talking about restructuring entire organisms at the molecular level, how the **** does a colored shockwave accomplish that? A beam of light can decode, recode, and surgically modify the DNA and physical structure of every organic in the galaxy instantaneously (not to mention whatever it does to the synthetics)? Really? My god, if the Reapers had that kind of technology, why bother flying around in spaceships and shooting red beams at people? That seems inconceivably primitive. The whole ME2 rebuilding Shepard thing was ridiculous, but at least that was just one person and it took two years, a whole scientific team, and ****loads of money. That was silly, but (marginally) tolerable.
I lost my **** at this!!! Good point u got!!
"The crucible changed me, created new possibilities."
Also, Arthur Clarke's famous quote about magic and technology.
lillitheris wrote...
1. The final cutscene isn’t necessarily good. It looks like it might be…but maybe they’ve all just been brainwashed.
But can't that be said about all the other ending cutscenes? That they may look good but might not actually be? Hell the IT theorists contend the whole ending was not real.
AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If this radical mutilation, which causes this new framework, does not change anything significantly then it does not provide any significant function.
To me it brings changes but not to such extent that the previous races may be considered extinct. An asari becomes a better asari, a turian becomes a better turian and a human becomes a better human, in terms of capabilities.
Wayning_Star wrote...
and Sheps trusty implants are immoral cheats on the natural order of things. Bummer
Not to mention they didn't take his/her permission before putting those godawful things into his/her body. How could they!
#3375
Posté 16 juillet 2012 - 06:43
DirtyPhoenix
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Also, hi to fellow synthesizers 
