9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Xamufam]

pirate1802 wrote...

DGMockingJay wrote...

Mojenator12345 wrote...

And if we're talking about restructuring entire organisms at the
molecular level, how the **** does a colored shockwave accomplish that?
A beam of light can decode, recode, and surgically modify the DNA and
physical structure of every organic in the galaxy instantaneously (not
to mention whatever it does to the synthetics)? Really? My god, if the
Reapers had that kind of technology, why bother flying around in
spaceships and shooting red beams at people? That seems inconceivably
primitive. The whole ME2 rebuilding Shepard thing was ridiculous, but
at least that was just one person and it took two years, a whole
scientific team, and ****loads of money. That was silly, but
(marginally) tolerable.

I lost my **** at this!!! Good point u got!!

"The crucible changed me, created new possibilities."
Also, Arthur Clarke's famous quote about magic and technology.

lillitheris wrote...
1. The final cutscene isn’t necessarily good. It looks like it might be…but maybe they’ve all just been brainwashed.

pirate1802 wrote...

But
can't that be said about all the other ending cutscenes? That they may
look good but might not actually be? Hell the IT theorists contend the
whole ending was not real.

How could it have changed him no one new he existed.You can't boild somheng advanced without understading it.
Arthur had something to back up his claim.

The
line between magic and technology becomes clearer and clearer as more
research is done into the unified field theory. Eventually, a single set
of mathmatical equations will be able to explain all physical
phenomena. This includes higher dimensional interactions, like
superstrings or M theory. There is a point where tech can only be tech,
even if you never saw it before, based solely on science. When you find a
way to cut a gluon in half, come and talk to me about magic. Till then,
everything is tech, and the ending of the game appeared to violate some
basic principles of quantum mechanics.

The
function of the crucible is incredibly difficult to believe. A
homogenous burst of radiation would cause random mutations in DNA. SO
the sythesis pulse would have to actually be a series of directed beams,
each tuned to each atom in the galaxy to re-arrange the physical
structure of the object (DNA molecule, leaves in a tree, Joker's eyes,
etc) being altered. A computer that could do this would 1: violate the
Heisenberg uncertainty principle (requiring to know more about the
particles being influenced than can actually be known) and 2: require a
size greater than at least the colelctive mass of the particles being
altered by the pulse. Laplace's demon deals with this very concept-a
computer should be capable of calculating all possible events ina purely
deterministic universe, but would have to be larger than said universe
to function.

Maybe that went over some people's heads, but it breaks down to this: SPACE MAGIC IS CRAP!



In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"

Modifié par Troxa, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:44 .

[Xamufam]

Modifié par Troxa, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:18 .

[I Am Robot]

lillitheris wrote...

Farid-Yoda-N7 wrote...

back to mass effect. synthesis is a natural evolution that happens in an instant.

Oh, so what you’re saying is that Synthesis is completely unnecessary and doesn’t actually do anything? Then your previous argument about a smaller change (Deus Ex) being actually larger makes sense. I guess.

Seriously, people.

If you want to come up with this magic unicorn Synthesis, by all means, do so! But don’t try to claim that the game presents it anything like this. It doesn’t.

I’m just going to assume that you’re acknowledging that Synthesis in ME3 is actually a bad thing, and you wouldn’t select it.

 

how does evolution not do anything? and in the context of the Mass effect universe it seems that synthesis is something that must happen in order for the chaos between organics and synthetics to end . We're talking about the ME universe not the real world. When did I say that the changes in Dues Ex seem smaller but are actually bigger? I said that I think what was being done in that game is wrong. 

In the EC  it is clearly shown that after synthesis individuals can still think in the same way, the war has ended, people are not indoctrinated and that there is no kind of collective thought. which are the things I've been saying in all of my posts. But there it is not stated with certainty that the races keep their identity although there are several clear indications to it.

Some people say that after synthesis people gain the ability to volunteerily use a kind of telepathic communication, but I don't agree with that theory.

I said earlier that I chose synthesis as my ending and I chose it without a drop of doubt. It's not perfect, but in my view it is certainly better than the other three actions.
  

Modifié par Farid-Yoda-N7, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:36 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Troxa wrote...

In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"

Like there was too much bad blood between Geth and the Quarians? or Krogan and Turians?

[Xamufam]

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"

Like there was too much bad blood between Geth and the Quarians? or Krogan and Turians?

That was not even close to the reapers vs organics

[DirtyPhoenix]

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"

Like there was too much bad blood between Geth and the Quarians? or Krogan and Turians?

That was not even close to the reapers vs organics

Because you saw it from a galactic perspective. To a single quarian or Krogan, a Geth or a turian is his biggest enemy until the reapers arrived. Even then, they were more willing to fight them than the reapers.

Modifié par pirate1802, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:33 .

[Xamufam]

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"

Like there was too much bad blood between Geth and the Quarians? or Krogan and Turians?

That was not even close to the reapers vs organics

Because you saw it from a galactic perspective. To a single quarian or Krogan, a Geth or a turian is his biggest enemy until the reapers arrived. Even then, they were more willing to fight them than the reapers.

would you willingly cooperate with something that killed your family your freinds.
The war would not end

Modifié par Troxa, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:37 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"

Like there was too much bad blood between Geth and the Quarians? or Krogan and Turians?

That was not even close to the reapers vs organics

Because you saw it from a galactic perspective. To a single quarian or Krogan, a Geth or a turian is his biggest enemy until the reapers arrived. Even then, they were more willing to fight them than the reapers.

would you cooperate with something that killed your family your freinds.
The war would not end

Thats subjective. You would not end the war, I would. Given the benefits of synthesis (if you believe in them).

Infact I already did.

Modifié par pirate1802, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:42 .

[Xamufam]

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"

Like there was too much bad blood between Geth and the Quarians? or Krogan and Turians?

That was not even close to the reapers vs organics

Because you saw it from a galactic perspective. To a single quarian or Krogan, a Geth or a turian is his biggest enemy until the reapers arrived. Even then, they were more willing to fight them than the reapers.

would you cooperate with something that killed your family your freinds.
The war would not end

Thats subjective. You would not end the war, I would. Given the benefits of synthesis (if you believe in them).

Infact I already did.

Most people would want them destroyed & they would not care for the benefits
(Human nature)

Modifié par Troxa, 16 juillet 2012 - 07:49 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

In synt ending every one seemed to get along. That would
never happen if it wasn't some kinda "sub mission/brainwashing" going
on. "There is just too much bad blood"

Like there was too much bad blood between Geth and the Quarians? or Krogan and Turians?

That was not even close to the reapers vs organics

Because you saw it from a galactic perspective. To a single quarian or Krogan, a Geth or a turian is his biggest enemy until the reapers arrived. Even then, they were more willing to fight them than the reapers.

would you cooperate with something that killed your family your freinds.
The war would not end

Thats subjective. You would not end the war, I would. Given the benefits of synthesis (if you believe in them).

Infact I already did.

Most people would want them destroyed & they would not care for the benefits
(Human nature)

Guess I and all those who picked synthesis are not humans then. Also, bear in mind nowhere does it say that the reapers are now our best friends, just they are helping us rebuild. To say that anyone who is not trying to stop their erstwhile enemies trying to help must be brainwashed, is not human nature. Its Krogan nature.

And most humans (or other organics) don't even know what the reapers truely are: preserved long-gone civilizations, who once were the victims of the cycles as much as we are, and now they are liberated.

Also, the same can be said of control? How come the reapers are rebuilding london and no one has a problem with it? Must be brainwashing.

Modifié par pirate1802, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:19 .

[Ieldra]

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...
would you cooperate with something that killed your family your freinds.
The war would not end

Thats subjective. You would not end the war, I would. Given the benefits of synthesis (if you believe in them).

Infact I already did.

Most people would want them destroyed & they would not care for the benefits

I choose to ignore notions of vengeance when making my decision. I have the one-time chance to end a billion-year-old cycle of extinction by making peace and preserving the legacy of the destroyed civilizations. I am changing life on a large scale, and I acknowledge *that* is morally problematic. Opinions of people crying for vengeance at the expense of the benefits I ignore with no bad feelings whatsoever.

Edit:
Welcome in the madhouse, pirate1802.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 juillet 2012 - 08:19 .

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
1. The final cutscene isn’t necessarily good. It looks like it might be…but maybe they’ve all just been brainwashed.

But can't that be said about all the other ending cutscenes? That they may look good but might not actually be? Hell the IT theorists contend the whole ending was not real.

Indeed. You can always try to deny something by claiming it's not real. Unless there is actual evidence that it *is* not real, such claims are the hallmark of a conspiracy theory. For people arguing plausibility, I'd say that Control is much more vulnerable in that regard, for that looks much more like a war of conquest has been won by the Reapers. In Synthesis, people will know what the Reapers are - avatars of civilizations.
 

pirate1802 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
and Sheps trusty implants are immoral cheats on the natural order of things. Bummer

Not to mention they didn't take his/her permission before putting those godawful things into his/her body. How could they!

I guess some Shepards will feel that way. They probably won't choose Synthesis...

[Xamufam]

pirate1802 wrote...
Guess I and all those who picked synthesis are not humans then. Also, bear in mind nowhere does it say that the reapers are now our best friends, just they are helping us rebuild. To say that anyone who is not trying to stop their erstwhile enemies trying to help must be brainwashed, is not human nature. Its Krogan nature.

And most humans (or other organics) don't even know what the reapers truely are: preserved long-gone civilizations, who once were the victims of the cycles as much as we are, and now they are liberated.

Also, the same can be said of control? How come the reapers are rebuilding london and no one has a problem with it? Must be brainwashing.

most people would wish for long-gone civilizations too rest in peace. Even the long-gone civilizations
probably brainwashing

[Aurora313]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Aurora313 wrote...
New Synthesis fiction 'Piece of the Puzzle'. A Shenko. This is an experiment. I'm not a skilled writer and don't expect frequent updates.

Nice. I can see where this might be going. I'm very curious how you'll write this, and looking forward to seeing your experiment continue. May I remark that you used two different first names for Shepard in this chapter...

Well.. gee, maybe because I TOLD you. Heh - anyway. I'll fix that now. For some reason, my second draft is up. Not my final product. Will fix it shortly. I've had a frakked off day, not really in the mood to do anything atm.

[lillitheris]

Ieldra2 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...
1. The final cutscene isn’t necessarily good. It looks like it might be…but maybe they’ve all just been brainwashed.

But can't that be said about all the other ending cutscenes? That they may look good but might not actually be? Hell the IT theorists contend the whole ending was not real.

Indeed. You can always try to deny something by claiming it's not real.

No, you’re (once again) going for false equivalence.

Yes, the other endings could be ‘not real’ — but they don’t f— with your brain and your
basic biological construction, so it’s infinitely less likely that the general population
would be, in fact, brainwashed. In Synthesis, it’s a very real possibility.

That doesn’t matter, however, since this completely ignores the primary contention — which I actually also listed — which is that you don’t know beforehand. I only pointed out that you don’t — can’t — even know after the fact.

In Synthesis, people will know what the Reapers are - avatars of civilizations.

You assume.

[RavenEyry]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 In Synthesis, people will know what the Reapers are - avatars of civilizations.
 

Same as a mixed meat dinner is an avatar of a farmyard.

[lillitheris]

Farid-Yoda-N7 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Farid-Yoda-N7 wrote...

back to mass effect. synthesis is a natural evolution that happens in an instant.

Oh, so what you’re saying is that Synthesis is completely unnecessary and doesn’t actually do anything? Then your previous argument about a smaller change (Deus Ex) being actually larger makes sense. I guess.

Seriously, people.

If you want to come up with this magic unicorn Synthesis, by all means, do so! But don’t try to claim that the game presents it anything like this. It doesn’t.

I’m just going to assume that you’re acknowledging that Synthesis in ME3 is actually a bad thing, and you wouldn’t select it.

 

how does evolution not do anything? and in the context of the Mass effect universe it seems that synthesis is something that must happen in order for the chaos between organics and synthetics to end . We're talking about the ME universe not the real world.

No, it is claimed that it’s necessary. We can accept that claim for the purposes of this discussion, but my problem with your statement is that the way you’re describing Synthesis

1. is not in line with what the game tells us; and

2. effects so little change that it’s completely pointless.

When did I say that the changes in Dues Ex seem smaller but are actually bigger? I said that I think what was being done in that game is wrong.

You said “Don't get me wrong I'm strongly against radical movements to augmentate
humans such as those shown in Deus Ex: Human Revolution, but there is a
huge diffrence between something like that and synthesis.”

The changes in Synthesis should be much more vast and invasive than DEx, if you go by the game and what it’s actually supposed to achieve.

(I admit I was highly amused that you found it dangerous to accept augments from ‘companies’ — but you think it’s perfectly fine to accept augments from someone who has actively been trying to kill all sapient life.)

Now, as I said, if you truly believe that the changes in Synthesis are smaller and less invasive than Deus Ex, then that means that Synthesis is pointless. It’s unnecessary. That level of augmentation can be done as it is.

So you’d be violating the basic rights of every being in existence — and those not yet born! — to perform an unnecessary act whose consequences you really have only the faintest idea about.

In the EC  it is clearly shown that after synthesis individuals can still think in the same way, the war has ended, people are not indoctrinated and that there is no kind of collective thought.

No, it isn’t. You don’t know any of that to be true.

But, again, that does not matter. Like I keep saying, we can well stipulate that Synthesis actually turns out well. The problem is that you don’t — can’t — know this at the time when you need to make the decision. You’re throwing away the lives of all sentient creatures in the universe because you think it might turn out to be good. In kindest possible terms, that’s horrifyingly irresponsible.

I said earlier that I chose synthesis as my ending and I chose it without a drop of doubt. It's not perfect, but in my view it is certainly better than the other three actions.

It’s better because the epilogue is better? You’re metagaming, and that has no place in a discussion abut the morality of the action.

(If you want to just admit that you aren’t actually RPing it properly, that’s fine. Just don’t try to argue that Synthesis is better.)

[DirtyPhoenix]

lillitheris wrote...

Yes, the other endings could be ‘not real’ — but they don’t f— with your brain and your
basic biological construction, so it’s infinitely less likely that the general population
would be, in fact, brainwashed. In Synthesis, it’s a very real possibility

Yes, brainwashing is a real possibility, but that does not mean it actually happened. Nothing in the epilogue seems to suggest this, they act normally, like they do in other cutscenes just with a green glow. Yes we cannot know for sure what we see is real, in the same way we cannot know for sure anything we saw in any game is real. A froend of mine told me Shepard blacked out near object rho and everything after that is a vivid dream and indoctrination attempt. I guess he can be right. Yes this is a morally questionable decision and yes we cannot know for sure beforehand, the effects of synthesis. Shepard makes a blind jump and as far as we see in the epilogue, it pays off. There may be unforeseen complications in the future, but the same can again be said of any ending.

It’s better because the epilogue is better?

Because I liked the idea of synthesis, even before I saw all the epilogues. As he said, it may have its own problems, but IMO it seemed to be the optimal solution. Yes others may/don't like synthesis, infact most don't. And they will be right in their own regard. That is why I believe there is no best or worst ending. It is all a matter of what you/your Shepard sees as being the best for the galaxy and acts accordingly.

RavenEyry wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
 In Synthesis, people will know what the Reapers are - avatars of civilizations.
 

Same as a mixed meat dinner is an avatar of a farmyard.

I had no idea meat dinner could talk and walk around

[Ieldra]

@lillitheris:
In any of the endings, there are about a gazillion things that don't happen. It's pointless to argue that you don't know they won't happen because they're not explicitly denied in advance. If any of these things were a significant part of the scenario with impact on the overall picture, they would be mentioned or at the very least heavily hinted at. Consider Control: the Catalyst mentions that Shepard will lose connection with what made her human over time. How you interpret that, whether it will cause problems or not, that's for you to decide, but it's a significant development. Nothing similar is hinted at for Synthesis.

So....it won't happen. There'll be no brainwashing, mind-bending, loss of individuality etc.... That's pure invention by you and other anti-Synthesis fanatics who can't live with the fact that an ending you find silly or morally unacceptable is actually a good ending.

I'm coming to understand why Bioware tends to send its messages with a sledgehammer. Some people are completely immune to subtext or nuance. Here we have an ending that tells you it's a good one in no uncertain terms, and people are *still* in denial.

Edit:
This deserves to be quoted for truth:

pirate1802 wrote....
That is why I believe there is no best or worst ending. It is all a matter of what you/your Shepard sees as being the best for the galaxy and acts accordingly.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 juillet 2012 - 10:44 .

[RavenEyry]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm coming to understand why Bioware tends to send its messages with a sledgehammer. Some people are completely immune to subtext or nuance. Here we have an ending that tells you it's a good one in no uncertain terms, and people are *still* in denial.

Theres a difference between saying it's good and writing it so it appears good, which it doesn't to a lot of people. It's highly likely Bioware intended it to be the best, but they flubbed the presentation.

[lillitheris]

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

So....it won't happen. There'll be no brainwashing, mind-bending, loss of individuality etc.... That's pure invention by you and other anti-Synthesis fanatics who can't live with the fact that an ending you find silly or morally unacceptable is actually a good ending.

I'm coming to understand why Bioware tends to send its messages with a sledgehammer. Some people are completely immune to subtext or nuance. Here we have an ending that tells you it's a good one in no uncertain terms, and people are *still* in denial.[/quote]

Irrelevant. You don’t know this beforehand.

I’m not sure why you keep ignoring it, but I keep saying that for the purposes of the discussion, we can assume that Synthesis in fact the best thing to ever happen (whenever I point out the alternatives, it’s only to say that the result is not as unambiguous as you and others try to present it. I.e., we can assume it is, but we don’t know it is.)

But…It. Does. Not. Matter.

That does not change the fact that the only choice that is worse is Refuse. If you wish to metagame, that’s your business — just don’t try to portray Synthesis as having some higher moral ground. It doesn’t. It’s an abhorrent choice, regardless of the outcome.

Can I get you to acknowledge this: the actual end result is irrelevant to making the decision?

[quote]pirate1802 wrote....
That is why I believe there is no best or worst ending. It is all a matter of what you/your Shepard sees as being the best for the galaxy and acts accordingly.[/quote]
[/quote]

Of course it is. A morally repugnant and/or stupid Shepard can choose Synthesis and think it’s probably…maybe…going to be awesome, and die happily.

If you can’t separate the actual RP decision from metagaming, then it’s useless to discuss it. Just admit that Synthesis is a terrible choice to actually make in that moment and move on to talking about the mechanics and implications of the epilogue in that knowledge.

A separate discussion can be and is had about the potential benefits of Synthesis. Then the ludicrousness of the entire concept comes to play. Then  we can pinpoint all the idiotic holes, self-contradictions, and other things that are wrong about it in the context of the epilogue.

Modifié par lillitheris, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:09 .

[Xamufam]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Troxa wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Troxa wrote...
would you cooperate with something that killed your family your freinds.
The war would not end

Thats subjective. You would not end the war, I would. Given the benefits of synthesis (if you believe in them).

Infact I already did.

Most people would want them destroyed & they would not care for the benefits

I choose to ignore notions of vengeance when making my decision. I have the one-time chance to end a billion-year-old cycle of extinction by making peace and preserving the legacy of the destroyed civilizations. I am changing life on a large scale, and I acknowledge *that* is morally problematic. Opinions of people crying for vengeance at the expense of the benefits I ignore with no bad feelings whatsoever.

Edit:
Welcome in the madhouse, pirate1802.

Not benifits just slavery
You are too religious
You people would kill just too get your way even if it's a bad thing
The benefits are too small versus the repercussions

[Ieldra]

You conveniently omitted the paragraph where I explained why the argument "We don't know in advance that X won't happen" is irrelevant. If I may remind you:

In any of the endings, there are about a gazillion things that don't happen. It's pointless to argue that you don't know they won't happen because they're not explicitly denied in advance. If any of these things were a significant part of the scenario with impact on the overall picture, they would be mentioned or at the very least heavily hinted at. Consider Control: the Catalyst mentions that Shepard will lose connection with what made her human over time. How you interpret that, whether it will cause problems or not, that's for you to decide, but it's a significant development. Nothing similar is hinted at for Synthesis.

Sorry, your freakish everyone-is-brainwashed-scenario won't happen. And you do know that without looking at the epilogue.

I repeat: any argument of the form "We don't know in advance that X won't happen" is irrelevant, unless you actually show that it's likely to happen. It isn't denied that a rain of frogs will go down on every planet post-Synthesis? Irrelevant.

If you want to interpret Synthesis as "everyone is brainwashed into accepting the Reapers", well, it's your prerogative to do that in your game. But as an argument it has zero weight.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:18 .

[lillitheris]

pirate1802 wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Yes, the other endings could be ‘not real’ — but they don’t f— with your brain and your
basic biological construction, so it’s infinitely less likely that the general population
would be, in fact, brainwashed. In Synthesis, it’s a very real possibility

Yes, brainwashing is a real possibility, but that does not mean it actually happened. Nothing in the epilogue seems to suggest this, they act normally, like they do in other cutscenes just with a green glow.

Right, and everybody is suddenly perfectly OK with the Reapers.

As I keep saying, it’s scientifically extremely likely that there are cognitive changes. Maybe there aren’t.

It doesn’t really matter, because that all happens after you make the choice.

I guess he can be right. Yes this is a morally questionable decision and yes we cannot know for sure beforehand, the effects of synthesis. Shepard makes a blind jump and as far as we see in the epilogue, it pays off. There may be unforeseen complications in the future, but the same can again be said of any ending.

Right. So, do you understand why I think that it’s perfectly fine for Shepard alone to go through Synthesis, but that it is a horrifying thought that Shepard would presume to force it on everyone, especially with as little idea about what’ll happen as he has?

It’s not the actual Synthesis (although, again, I find that concept ridiculous), but the circumstances of making that choice.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Troxa wrote...

Not benifits just slavery
You are too religious
You people would kill just too get your way even if it's a bad thing
The benefits are too small versus the repercussions

Modifié par pirate1802, 16 juillet 2012 - 11:39 .