It's a conversation I had with edi on the normandy after beating the grunt/rachni/arlakh mission
A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)
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Ieldra
, mai 20 2012 05:10
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#3552
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 06:29
flemm
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Ieldra2 wrote...
Yes, I know that exchange, and it's a rather interesting insight into Mordin's take on things. I still resent it because it makes Shepard come across as anti-transhumanist. Which my main Shepard definitely isn't. Some writer couldn't resist infusing Shepard with his personal ideology, making him humorless as well for good measure.
Also, transhumanism isn't limited to the idea of brain functions being replaced or augmented by cybernetics, to my knowledge.
#3553
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 06:31
Taboo
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One of the things that bothered me most about ME3 was the humorless nature of my Shepard Ieldra.
No jokes! Bah!
Shepard is organic, that's a fact. It IS Shepard. Liara states this, and I'm sure Miranda would as well. It doesn't really make a lick of sense but that's the rub.
The writing in the game is unbalanced. It has some "Excuse me?" moments in it. My personal favorite is how Shepard essentially tells the Quarians to blow the Geth out of the sky. He asks the Quarians to stand down.
I'm sensing bull****.
No jokes! Bah!
Shepard is organic, that's a fact. It IS Shepard. Liara states this, and I'm sure Miranda would as well. It doesn't really make a lick of sense but that's the rub.
The writing in the game is unbalanced. It has some "Excuse me?" moments in it. My personal favorite is how Shepard essentially tells the Quarians to blow the Geth out of the sky. He asks the Quarians to stand down.
I'm sensing bull****.
#3554
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 07:31
Ieldra
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It isn't. It's a convenient re-definition by the writer of that conversation to remove any transhuman associations from Shepard. Given that - as Dr.Doctor said upthread - biotics are considered transhuman in ME1, and Shepart can be a biotic, this is weird. As I said, someone appears to have an agenda there.flemm wrote...
Also, transhumanism isn't limited to the idea of brain functions being replaced or augmented by cybernetics, to my knowledge.Ieldra2 wrote...
Yes, I know that exchange, and it's a rather interesting insight into Mordin's take on things. I still resent it because it makes Shepard come across as anti-transhumanist. Which my main Shepard definitely isn't. Some writer couldn't resist infusing Shepard with his personal ideology, making him humorless as well for good measure.
Not that I'm really surprised, since pretty much everything got an almost lethal dose of "conventional" and "mainstream" in ME3. It may be surprising that I'm saying this on a Synthesis thread, but look at everything else but the ending.
@Taboo:
No, Shepard is not fully organic, only his identity rests in an organic brain. He can question his own status as a human as well, on Cronos Station. BTW, what do you mean about Shepard and the quarians?
Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 juillet 2012 - 07:38 .
#3555
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 07:42
Taboo
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Yes. He's organic/synthetic. Are you familiar with the Blue Brain experiments?
It IS Shepard, but all the other bits and pieces were made from stem cells that were sped up because Miranda got impatient.
They are organic cells, but they needed Synthetic implants to make them work. The brain is the only real part that is original.
Shepard essentially tells the Quarian fleet to blow the Geth out of the sky. Like a drone. He doesn't try and tell them to back down like he does the Quarians.
And then EDI is pissed if the Geth die. Not so with the Quarians though.
It's a moral failing regardless. At least it would be for my Shepard. Know that it sucks just as hard picking Destroy with the Geth alive as it does for them them perish above Rannoch.
It IS Shepard, but all the other bits and pieces were made from stem cells that were sped up because Miranda got impatient.
They are organic cells, but they needed Synthetic implants to make them work. The brain is the only real part that is original.
Shepard essentially tells the Quarian fleet to blow the Geth out of the sky. Like a drone. He doesn't try and tell them to back down like he does the Quarians.
And then EDI is pissed if the Geth die. Not so with the Quarians though.
It's a moral failing regardless. At least it would be for my Shepard. Know that it sucks just as hard picking Destroy with the Geth alive as it does for them them perish above Rannoch.
#3557
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 07:46
His Name was HYR!!
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Taboo-XX wrote...
Shepard essentially tells the Quarian fleet to blow the Geth out of the sky. Like a drone. He doesn't try and tell them to back down like he does the Quarians.
The quarians are the aggressors in that situation. The geth have already "backed down" ... which is why the quarians are about to slaughter them.
#3558
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 07:48
Taboo
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HYR 2.0 wrote...
Taboo-XX wrote...
Shepard essentially tells the Quarian fleet to blow the Geth out of the sky. Like a drone. He doesn't try and tell them to back down like he does the Quarians.
The quarians are the aggressors in that situation. The geth have already "backed down" ... which is why the quarians are about to slaughter them.
I know this, but he doesn't make any steps to do much of anything.
That's my issue.
#3559
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 08:18
Nimrodell
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Ha, it's nice to see you two muppets still discussing synthesis. Anyways, I just got back from my travel from Greece, FYR Macedonia and Republika Srpska and I was thinking about you Taboo while I was there, listening the people who live there, what they have to say about the old conflicts that still have deep roots in them... and I wished you were there with me to hear those things. Nothing changed, dear, nothing in perception, nothing that we could call a true evolution of human thought and liberal ways of thinking... They trade with each other alright, do business, even drink together sometimes and yet there is a huge gap between them, gap made of misunderstanding, prejudices, unwillingness to at least to try to comprehend different ways of life, different ways of understanding. Anyways, I thought about you... would be fun to see you there while talking to them, all of 'em. 
@DinoSteve: You know you can do better than that - like ROFLMAO synthesis - at least as a better addition to this discussion.
@DinoSteve: You know you can do better than that - like ROFLMAO synthesis - at least as a better addition to this discussion.
#3560
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 08:25
Taboo
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I have friends in Greece.
Anarchists, leftists all of them.
The issue in the Balkans is far worse than just infighting in Greece.
This stuff has been brewing for a long time.
Have you ever seen a film by Theodoros Angelopoulos? Go watch The Suspended Step of the Stork( To meterou vima tou pelargou). Alexander the Great ( O Megalexandros). The Travelling Players (O Thiasos). Days of 36(Meres tou 36).
Hell, go look for Landscape in the Mist (Topio stin Omichli)
This nonsense has been around since the Greek's gained Independence. The Regime of the Colonels didn't help much either.
Anarchists, leftists all of them.
The issue in the Balkans is far worse than just infighting in Greece.
This stuff has been brewing for a long time.
Have you ever seen a film by Theodoros Angelopoulos? Go watch The Suspended Step of the Stork( To meterou vima tou pelargou). Alexander the Great ( O Megalexandros). The Travelling Players (O Thiasos). Days of 36(Meres tou 36).
Hell, go look for Landscape in the Mist (Topio stin Omichli)
This nonsense has been around since the Greek's gained Independence. The Regime of the Colonels didn't help much either.
Modifié par Taboo-XX, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:26 .
#3561
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 08:52
Ieldra
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Hmm....I think I need to rewrite part II of the OP. The last post-EC upgrade was something of a hotfix, I didn't get some of my thoughts across as I wanted.
While I'm at it: does anyone here have anything interesting to say about the topics "Synthesis and ascension" and "The Reapers and Lovecraftian Cosmicism, and the subversion thereof" that I might want to include?
@Nimrodell:
Welcome back. Too bad that nothing has changed down there :/ As for Taboo and me, there isn't much real debate atm, he's trying to rile me up by his own admission and I'm mostly proving immune, LOL.
While I'm at it: does anyone here have anything interesting to say about the topics "Synthesis and ascension" and "The Reapers and Lovecraftian Cosmicism, and the subversion thereof" that I might want to include?
@Nimrodell:
Welcome back. Too bad that nothing has changed down there :/ As for Taboo and me, there isn't much real debate atm, he's trying to rile me up by his own admission and I'm mostly proving immune, LOL.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 juillet 2012 - 08:53 .
#3562
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 09:57
Ieldra
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And here's another question before I'm off:
We've been debating how the Reapers are affected by Synthesis, which is somewhat problematic because of their unclear nature. But how is the Catalyst affected? It is a full synthetic....which means it will gain full understanding of organics...
We've been debating how the Reapers are affected by Synthesis, which is somewhat problematic because of their unclear nature. But how is the Catalyst affected? It is a full synthetic....which means it will gain full understanding of organics...
#3563
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 10:23
RiouHotaru
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It could be that Shepard didn't want to have the debate regarding transhumanism because it's a hot topic like abortion or homosexuality are hot topics for us in real life. From the way EDI described it, it does seem to be a controversial issue, and Shepard shuts it down at the end because there's the "I'm a VI believing I'm Shepard" creeping in.
As for the Catalyst, I'm under the impression he no longer exists. His sole purpose was to facilitate a connection between organics and synthetics, and when that failed come up with a solution to keep the conflict from driving cultures extinct.
In Synthesis, his given purpose is fulfilled, giving him no reason to keep functioning. The problem he was created to solve, has been solved.
As for the Catalyst, I'm under the impression he no longer exists. His sole purpose was to facilitate a connection between organics and synthetics, and when that failed come up with a solution to keep the conflict from driving cultures extinct.
In Synthesis, his given purpose is fulfilled, giving him no reason to keep functioning. The problem he was created to solve, has been solved.
#3564
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 11:02
Taboo
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Simply speaking to people on this forum makes them go ape****. Have you seen me try and explain the Breath scene to people?
Also, having random women think of me while travelling across Europe is kind of strange. I haven't been singled out since that one guy created a thread with my username in it.
Reapers in Synthesis? That's a fun question.
You talked about what type of Synthetic Life forms they were. Well, the Human Reaper in ME2 is both organic and inorganic, as stated by EDI.
The Catalyst is the collected minds of all the Reapers. Whatever the Reapers were is long dead, but the organic material creates a new being. Those reawakened memories "free" the Reapers so to speak.
But the memories do not belong the Reapers. It reminds me of Grunt in his tank. You can't assign meaning to an image, you have to find it. The last things those people saw before dying was themselves being liquefied. The Reapers can't just assign meaning to it and even if they do would they be horrified at what they had become? They are composed of millions of dead beings after all.
The Catalyst is an AI though, so I'd imagine he's staying put right were he is. What would happen if the shared consciousness of all the Reapers went away? He is Destroyed in Destroy (shocking, I know) and is replaced in Control.
I'm not even convinced the Reapers are aware of his existence or that he even has control over them. The latter part of the previous sentence would seem to be true if we take into account the fact that he says he cannot stop the Reapers and that Shepard must choose or if you're a pious ass, refuse.
I'm trying to think of a proper comparison here but all I can think of is the collective consciousness being flushed out into it's own individual Reaper or something. Kind of like taking a ZIP file and unloaded **** into it's respective folder.
When that's done all you have is an empty ZIP file. It retains it's original purpose, but has no use beyond just sitting there.
Although I'd imagine people going ape **** having to talk to a synthesized version of the Catalyst.
Also, having random women think of me while travelling across Europe is kind of strange. I haven't been singled out since that one guy created a thread with my username in it.
Reapers in Synthesis? That's a fun question.
You talked about what type of Synthetic Life forms they were. Well, the Human Reaper in ME2 is both organic and inorganic, as stated by EDI.
The Catalyst is the collected minds of all the Reapers. Whatever the Reapers were is long dead, but the organic material creates a new being. Those reawakened memories "free" the Reapers so to speak.
But the memories do not belong the Reapers. It reminds me of Grunt in his tank. You can't assign meaning to an image, you have to find it. The last things those people saw before dying was themselves being liquefied. The Reapers can't just assign meaning to it and even if they do would they be horrified at what they had become? They are composed of millions of dead beings after all.
The Catalyst is an AI though, so I'd imagine he's staying put right were he is. What would happen if the shared consciousness of all the Reapers went away? He is Destroyed in Destroy (shocking, I know) and is replaced in Control.
I'm not even convinced the Reapers are aware of his existence or that he even has control over them. The latter part of the previous sentence would seem to be true if we take into account the fact that he says he cannot stop the Reapers and that Shepard must choose or if you're a pious ass, refuse.
I'm trying to think of a proper comparison here but all I can think of is the collective consciousness being flushed out into it's own individual Reaper or something. Kind of like taking a ZIP file and unloaded **** into it's respective folder.
When that's done all you have is an empty ZIP file. It retains it's original purpose, but has no use beyond just sitting there.
Although I'd imagine people going ape **** having to talk to a synthesized version of the Catalyst.
Modifié par Taboo-XX, 18 juillet 2012 - 11:06 .
#3565
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 11:29
Nimrodell
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@ Taboo: I used to like Angelopoulos in my youth, now I'm more for Kazantzakis type of directors, but to be honest, I'm tired of all grim, high pathos movies - you should've seen me two years ago while watching great Iranian films and suddenly something snapped in me - I'd like more 'Sound of the Music' endings for a change hehe.
@Ieldra: Thanks dear - ah, you two are doing just fine. As I said, I was thinking about this entire synthesis shenanigan and how people forget that Mass Effect is game in the first place and that many story points are directly subjugated to game mechanics and yet, players tend to forget that, asking for 'realism' where can't be any. If it were a book, I'd judge it more harshly, but this story is trapped in media with huge limitations, even thought there's an illusion of, let's say, easier access to the story.
As for your question on reapers and synthesis - well, for now I can just say - gestalt mind, but also not in the same time - different, determined by various genetic memories stored in separate vessels - like each vessel is unique avatar of that gestalt mind, determined by separate, unique genetic, collective memory - so all of them are same and different in the same time. Sovereign will be cold, impersonal while addressing Shepard, Harbinger possesses certain amount, could we say, vanity? And yet, Rannoch reaper is different.
One thing though I didn't notice on these boards - everyone blames Catalyst, and yet, its creators, organics who were the first to recognize the conflict and became the first reaper are actually ones to blame. The flawed logic doesn't come from the Catalyst - it is older than it.
@Ieldra: Thanks dear - ah, you two are doing just fine. As I said, I was thinking about this entire synthesis shenanigan and how people forget that Mass Effect is game in the first place and that many story points are directly subjugated to game mechanics and yet, players tend to forget that, asking for 'realism' where can't be any. If it were a book, I'd judge it more harshly, but this story is trapped in media with huge limitations, even thought there's an illusion of, let's say, easier access to the story.
As for your question on reapers and synthesis - well, for now I can just say - gestalt mind, but also not in the same time - different, determined by various genetic memories stored in separate vessels - like each vessel is unique avatar of that gestalt mind, determined by separate, unique genetic, collective memory - so all of them are same and different in the same time. Sovereign will be cold, impersonal while addressing Shepard, Harbinger possesses certain amount, could we say, vanity? And yet, Rannoch reaper is different.
One thing though I didn't notice on these boards - everyone blames Catalyst, and yet, its creators, organics who were the first to recognize the conflict and became the first reaper are actually ones to blame. The flawed logic doesn't come from the Catalyst - it is older than it.
#3566
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 11:41
Taboo
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Actually my specialty is nihilism/skepticism and fatalism in cinema.
Which is probably why I don't appreciate Synthesis, as it doesn't reflect the nature of the world I wish to see in art.
I want it to be blunt, nasty and incredibly distressing.
Angelopoulos is incredibly depressing but for a good reason. That's the way the world is.
But none, none have ever matched Robert Bresson. Nothing will ever be more nihilistic than The Devil, Probably.
I refuse to gloss things over in art because I believe it is dishonest, which is why I am insistent on everything being on the table for the Synthesis discussion.
Which is probably why I don't appreciate Synthesis, as it doesn't reflect the nature of the world I wish to see in art.
I want it to be blunt, nasty and incredibly distressing.
Angelopoulos is incredibly depressing but for a good reason. That's the way the world is.
But none, none have ever matched Robert Bresson. Nothing will ever be more nihilistic than The Devil, Probably.
I refuse to gloss things over in art because I believe it is dishonest, which is why I am insistent on everything being on the table for the Synthesis discussion.
#3567
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 11:45
Aurora313
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Ieldra2 wrote...
Yes, I know that exchange, and it's a rather interesting insight into Mordin's take on things. I still resent it because it makes Shepard come across as anti-transhumanist. Which my main Shepard definitely isn't. Some writer couldn't resist infusing Shepard with his personal ideology, making him humorless as well for good measure.
See, I always saw it that he's find with implants, but he doesn't wanna end up like Saren did, most of him had been replaced with Implants and when the organic part of him melted away it was pretty horrifying. Kind of a stretch, I know, but that's how I choose to see it.
Technically any biotic Shepard is a transhuman anyway - they've had L3 or L5x/r biotic amplifiers graphed to their nervous system.
#3568
Posté 18 juillet 2012 - 11:58
Nimrodell
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Taboo-XX wrote...
Actually my specialty is nihilism/skepticism and fatalism in cinema.
Which is probably why I don't appreciate Synthesis, as it doesn't reflect the nature of the world I wish to see in art.
I want it to be blunt, nasty and incredibly distressing.
Angelopoulos is incredibly depressing but for a good reason. That's the way the world is.
But none, none have ever matched Robert Bresson. Nothing will ever be more nihilistic than The Devil, Probably.
I refuse to gloss things over in art because I believe it is dishonest, which is why I am insistent on everything being on the table for the Synthesis discussion.
I'm more for Ingmar Bergman depictions, like in Djavulens Oga (Devil's Eye I hope in English), where world is grim, but there's purity, love and even evil cannot win fully. I don't know if you ever read Bulgakov's Master and Margarita? If there's proper dose of everything to be had in art, well, Bulgakov found a proper measure - because the world itself, life itself know for injustice and tragic things, but also it is a place of justice and beauty in the same time. It would be interesting for you to see this film if you like dark wave - there's Bresson to be seen in it, his influence, but also, there's a proper measure of other things. I think you would love this film, I'm just not sure if you can get a copy in States with English subtitles.
#3569
Posté 19 juillet 2012 - 12:58
Taboo
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The inability for people to understand one another causes the most conflict in the world. That's the point. People thrive in chaos. Life adapts and changes. And from the ashes new civilizations arise.
Synthesis simply avoids one issue by overstepping a problem that is hypothetical. Yes, people are afraid of Synthetics in Mass Effect, but for good reason. They have been told to be afraid of them. The Geth were always supposed to be evil, because the Quarians said so. Not the case.
The issue is whether or not you believe that the understanding should be forced. Having more storage space in my mind will not make me understand Synthetics and not fear them. A change to my brain would have to occur.
Synthesis is an upgrade sure, but one that simply avoids the issue by solving it in the most blunt manner possible. Can't relate? Remove the difference between man and machine. That's tedious **** you're dealing with there. That's what Synthesis does. Michael Gamble has stated this. All you've done is remove distinguishing factors between us. We remain individuals but we are as Mr. Gamble remarks "just life".
That's what it is. It glosses things over. That doesn't strike me as being particularly intellectual. It's just a blunt way of fixing a flaw inherent in ALL life.
The information trickling down from Bioware is NOT one of transhumanism, but one of fundamental change. Forced and permanent. This is why people are upset with Synthesis. It's just a perfected form of husks. They retain their individuality and are not mindless drones, but they are something entirely new. Man and machine if you will.
That Catalyst alludes to this when he states that Synthesis cannot be forced, and then provides you with the option for Synthesis.
Hiding behind the transhumanist ideal is wrong here, because it's far more than just an upgrade.
Synthesis simply avoids one issue by overstepping a problem that is hypothetical. Yes, people are afraid of Synthetics in Mass Effect, but for good reason. They have been told to be afraid of them. The Geth were always supposed to be evil, because the Quarians said so. Not the case.
The issue is whether or not you believe that the understanding should be forced. Having more storage space in my mind will not make me understand Synthetics and not fear them. A change to my brain would have to occur.
Synthesis is an upgrade sure, but one that simply avoids the issue by solving it in the most blunt manner possible. Can't relate? Remove the difference between man and machine. That's tedious **** you're dealing with there. That's what Synthesis does. Michael Gamble has stated this. All you've done is remove distinguishing factors between us. We remain individuals but we are as Mr. Gamble remarks "just life".
That's what it is. It glosses things over. That doesn't strike me as being particularly intellectual. It's just a blunt way of fixing a flaw inherent in ALL life.
The information trickling down from Bioware is NOT one of transhumanism, but one of fundamental change. Forced and permanent. This is why people are upset with Synthesis. It's just a perfected form of husks. They retain their individuality and are not mindless drones, but they are something entirely new. Man and machine if you will.
That Catalyst alludes to this when he states that Synthesis cannot be forced, and then provides you with the option for Synthesis.
Hiding behind the transhumanist ideal is wrong here, because it's far more than just an upgrade.
Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juillet 2012 - 12:59 .
#3570
Posté 19 juillet 2012 - 01:04
Enthalpy
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This is the synthesis thread, right? Where's the acrimony? Did I miss something in the last few weeks? o.o
OT: I think the Catalyst simply ceases to be via RiouHotaru's explanation: its purpose in billions of years of existence has been fulfilled. Kind of like... hmm... how the Numenoreans and Aragorn chose to "move on" in J. R. R. Tolkien's work. Even if it were to stick around as an AI presence on the Citadel, it doesn't have control of the Reapers anymore, so there is not much for it to do besides observe.
OT: I think the Catalyst simply ceases to be via RiouHotaru's explanation: its purpose in billions of years of existence has been fulfilled. Kind of like... hmm... how the Numenoreans and Aragorn chose to "move on" in J. R. R. Tolkien's work. Even if it were to stick around as an AI presence on the Citadel, it doesn't have control of the Reapers anymore, so there is not much for it to do besides observe.
#3571
Posté 19 juillet 2012 - 03:44
Dr. Doctor
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@ Taboo
I somewhat agree with you, the whole "synthetics and organics will always try to kill each other" motivation for the Reapers doesn't really work when Joker and EDI get along together just fine and it's possible to have the Quarians and Geth live together in peace.
Synthesis as a concept is a really neat idea, very few games outside of Deus Ex ever discuss the subject. The problem is that plot points that could apply to that decision like Shepard and the Lazarus Project aren't discussed in-depth. When you finally get the option for Synthesis it ends up feeling more like a third option that was created for the sake of having a third option which is a shame.
As for what happens to the Catalyst after Synthesis I'm going with it shuts down. It was made to broker peace between organics and synthetics, without any distinctly organic or synthetic lifeforms in the galaxy it no longer needs to exist.
I somewhat agree with you, the whole "synthetics and organics will always try to kill each other" motivation for the Reapers doesn't really work when Joker and EDI get along together just fine and it's possible to have the Quarians and Geth live together in peace.
Synthesis as a concept is a really neat idea, very few games outside of Deus Ex ever discuss the subject. The problem is that plot points that could apply to that decision like Shepard and the Lazarus Project aren't discussed in-depth. When you finally get the option for Synthesis it ends up feeling more like a third option that was created for the sake of having a third option which is a shame.
As for what happens to the Catalyst after Synthesis I'm going with it shuts down. It was made to broker peace between organics and synthetics, without any distinctly organic or synthetic lifeforms in the galaxy it no longer needs to exist.
#3572
Posté 19 juillet 2012 - 03:56
Taboo
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I totally agree. Synthesis is a great idea...for another game.
Those Saren banners don't do much to reinforce it's ideaology either. The quote bothers me a great deal.
I wouldn't be so opposed to it if Mass Effect wasn't about diversity and denying the establishment. Authority in Mass Effect is usually shown to be incompetent and Synthesis is the ultimate step towards what ONE person wants for everyone for all time.
It's just too much.
Those Saren banners don't do much to reinforce it's ideaology either. The quote bothers me a great deal.
I wouldn't be so opposed to it if Mass Effect wasn't about diversity and denying the establishment. Authority in Mass Effect is usually shown to be incompetent and Synthesis is the ultimate step towards what ONE person wants for everyone for all time.
It's just too much.
Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juillet 2012 - 04:13 .
#3573
Posté 19 juillet 2012 - 09:37
Ieldra
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I found this comment about Keiji in Synthesis by Patrick Weekes, relayed by Jessica Merizan. This is from a livechat on masseffect-universe.de yesterday:
"In Synthesis, the improved communication/relationship between synthetics and organics is enough for Keiji's greybox memories to be reconstructed. This would let Kasumi reunite with her lover (at least mentally and emotionally). Whether it really is Keiji, based on his memories, or just a very good AI reconstruction of him, is up to the player to determine -- that type of question is one of the core questions of Synthesis." (*quote source*)
So apparently the greybox does contain the complete information that made up Keiji, or at least the scene is open to that interpretation, and the question is rather about what makes up our identities.
"In Synthesis, the improved communication/relationship between synthetics and organics is enough for Keiji's greybox memories to be reconstructed. This would let Kasumi reunite with her lover (at least mentally and emotionally). Whether it really is Keiji, based on his memories, or just a very good AI reconstruction of him, is up to the player to determine -- that type of question is one of the core questions of Synthesis." (*quote source*)
So apparently the greybox does contain the complete information that made up Keiji, or at least the scene is open to that interpretation, and the question is rather about what makes up our identities.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 juillet 2012 - 09:39 .
#3574
Posté 19 juillet 2012 - 10:33
Nimrodell
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Ieldra2 wrote...
I found this comment about Keiji in Synthesis by Patrick Weekes, relayed by Jessica Merizan. This is from a livechat on masseffect-universe.de yesterday:
"In Synthesis, the improved communication/relationship between synthetics and organics is enough for Keiji's greybox memories to be reconstructed. This would let Kasumi reunite with her lover (at least mentally and emotionally). Whether it really is Keiji, based on his memories, or just a very good AI reconstruction of him, is up to the player to determine -- that type of question is one of the core questions of Synthesis." (*quote source*)
So apparently the greybox does contain the complete information that made up Keiji, or at least the scene is open to that interpretation, and the question is rather about what makes up our identities.
Thane would have something to say on that topic and on validity of vivid memory and it's value of being life itself. Same would claim desire demon in Dragon Age Origins that enslaved that poor templar guy
. As for me, if Kasumi accepts 'Keiji' on those terms, who am I to argue?
#3575
Posté 19 juillet 2012 - 10:45
Nimrodell
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Taboo-XX wrote...
The issue is whether or not you believe that the understanding should be forced. Having more storage space in my mind will not make me understand Synthetics and not fear them. A change to my brain would have to occur.
Synthesis is an upgrade sure, but one that simply avoids the issue by solving it in the most blunt manner possible. Can't relate? Remove the difference between man and machine. That's tedious **** you're dealing with there. That's what Synthesis does. Michael Gamble has stated this. All you've done is remove distinguishing factors between us. We remain individuals but we are as Mr. Gamble remarks "just life".
And yet, just imagine if you could actually connect to me, with my very being and see the world from my eyes, sense my emotions, learn why I grew up to be a person I am today - with such different views on life, politics, people, great questions, and if I were able to do the same - sense, learn your views, understandings, background - wouldn't it allow you to understand and from your own experience learn and change accordingly? Whether you like it or not, the very presence of the reapers and the pattern is forcing change in itself, even after destroy, the state of things, of minds will never be the same (we already discussed that). Synthesis is just more obvious, less subtle change, a visible one.
