9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Nimrodell wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I found this comment about Keiji in Synthesis by Patrick Weekes, relayed by Jessica Merizan. This is from a livechat on masseffect-universe.de yesterday:

"In Synthesis, the improved communication/relationship between synthetics and organics is enough for Keiji's greybox memories to be reconstructed. This would let Kasumi reunite with her lover (at least mentally and emotionally). Whether it really is Keiji, based on his memories, or just a very good AI reconstruction of him, is up to the player to determine -- that type of question is one of the core questions of Synthesis." (*quote source*)

So apparently the greybox does contain the complete information that made up Keiji, or at least the scene is open to that interpretation, and the question is rather about what makes up our identities.

Thane would have something to say on that topic and on validity of vivid memory and it's value of being life itself. Same would claim desire demon in Dragon Age Origins that enslaved that poor templar guy . As for me, if Kasumi accepts 'Keiji' on those terms, who am I to argue?

Memories alone won't do it - you need something/someone to experience memories as their own in order to claim life, but I think the problem alluded to here is rather more basic: if you have complete information about what was in a person's brain, can you reconstruct that person with any claim of identity? Or is the result nothing more than "a high-tech VI that thinks it's Commander Shepard"? Assumining that all information that made up Keiji as a person is stored in that greybox, it's a higher-order identity problem, but in the end similar to Shepard's post-Lazarus.

[Nimrodell]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
I found this comment about Keiji in Synthesis by Patrick Weekes, relayed by Jessica Merizan. This is from a livechat on masseffect-universe.de yesterday:

"In Synthesis, the improved communication/relationship between synthetics and organics is enough for Keiji's greybox memories to be reconstructed. This would let Kasumi reunite with her lover (at least mentally and emotionally). Whether it really is Keiji, based on his memories, or just a very good AI reconstruction of him, is up to the player to determine -- that type of question is one of the core questions of Synthesis." (*quote source*)

So apparently the greybox does contain the complete information that made up Keiji, or at least the scene is open to that interpretation, and the question is rather about what makes up our identities.

Thane would have something to say on that topic and on validity of vivid memory and it's value of being life itself. Same would claim desire demon in Dragon Age Origins that enslaved that poor templar guy . As for me, if Kasumi accepts 'Keiji' on those terms, who am I to argue?

Memories alone won't do it - you need something/someone to experience memories as their own in order to claim life, but I think the problem alluded to here is rather more basic: if you have complete information about what was in a person's brain, can you reconstruct that person with any claim of identity? Or is the result nothing more than "a high-tech VI that thinks it's Commander Shepard"? Assumining that all information that made up Keiji as a person is stored in that greybox, it's a higher-order identity problem, but in the end similar to Shepard's post-Lazarus.

It is, because it is Keiji's not Kasumi's greybox and again we come to Dr. Michio Kaku and the problem of mind-uploading - look - Michio Kaku on Mind-uploading - there he explains certain aspects of Synthesis Keiji and I think he gives a proper answer.

[Ieldra]

Interesting responses about the effect of Synthesis on the Reapers and the Catalyst on the previous page. Here's my take on it:

The Reapers are physically synthetic but have conjoined organic minds. EDI speculated (!!!) that Reapers are organic constructs, but I don't see anything organic in the human Reaper and think that line is a remnant of earlier plans where the human Reaper looked much more organic (see concept art in the ME2 artbook). I rather go with Legion's speculation that Reapers are "conjoined minds in a machine body" and anyway a construct is a construct, regardless of what material is used to build it. As I see it, the DNA was needed to (a) store information about the physical form and ( to store any genetic memories which appear to exist in the ME universe.

That means Reapers are affected like synthetics. If Reapers - through the Reaperization process - have lost the innate understanding of organics their constituent species naturally had, then Synthesis will restore that understanding. If the constituent species was synthetic, Synthesis will bestow that understanding as usual. If the Reapers of organic species already are true avatars of their species, then Synthesis probably won't affect them all that much. Whatever happens, post-Synthesis the Reapers will be true avatars of their species. What exactly that means is open to interpretation but I don't need specifics to speculate about the effects of Synthesis on them.

As for the Catalyst, I'm speaking of the "core AI", the entity that created the first Reaper before it augmented itself with mental connections to the Reapers. If it continues to exist, it will also gain that full understanding of organics that Synthesis bestows on synthetics. It would be thematically fitting that it doesn't continue to exist since its task is done, so that's what I'm playing with for my headcanon, but it's really anyone's guess. There is "no data available" on that topic.

@Nimrodell:
Thanks for that video link. Very interesting. Should be required watching for people around here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 juillet 2012 - 03:22 .

[Ieldra]

RiouHotaru wrote...
It could be that Shepard didn't want to have the debate regarding transhumanism because it's a hot topic like abortion or homosexuality are hot topics for us in real life. From the way EDI described it, it does seem to be a controversial issue, and Shepard shuts it down at the end because there's the "I'm a VI believing I'm Shepard" creeping in.

You could rationalize it that way I guess, but he sounds really hostile to EDI. Not the first time my Shepard is out of character in ME3.

As for the Catalyst, I'm under the impression he no longer exists. His sole purpose was to facilitate a connection between organics and synthetics, and when that failed come up with a solution to keep the conflict from driving cultures extinct.

In Synthesis, his given purpose is fulfilled, giving him no reason to keep functioning. The problem he was created to solve, has been solved.

The problem is, in the original Synthesis ending the Citadel is destroyed, so it's safe to assume the Catalyst is gone as well. With the EC endings, things aren't quite as clear. EC Synthesis is the only ending that tells us nothing about the fate of the Citadel and neither do we have solid ground to speculate about the Catalyst, though I tend to agree with you.

[jtav]

Regarding the Keiji quote, is this the way mortality will be transcended? Because it certainly seems the new Keiji can pass for the original well enough to satisfy even those who loved him best. The AI can pass the ultimate Turing test. The Echo Shard contains memories from the Prothean Empire. Can that be reborn in some digital world. Shepard was the last owner of the Shard. Assuming it wasn't destroyed, does that mean he can come back?

[Dr. Doctor]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Memories alone won't do it - you need something/someone to experience memories as their own in order to claim life, but I think the problem alluded to here is rather more basic: if you have complete information about what was in a person's brain, can you reconstruct that person with any claim of identity? Or is the result nothing more than "a high-tech VI that thinks it's Commander Shepard"? Assumining that all information that made up Keiji as a person is stored in that greybox, it's a higher-order identity problem, but in the end similar to Shepard's post-Lazarus.

Depending on how Synthesis works Kasumi's memories of Keji may be filling in a few of the gaps in the greybox's systems. From the sound of it Synthesis for synthetics is a supercharged version of the sentience code that the Reapers gave the Geth so Keji is either actually Keji or a highly advanced AI.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

I found it hilarious that people are saying Synthesis brought back Keiji from the dead and it's another reason why Synthesis is 'stupid'. It's a laughably weak attempt to make fun of Synthesis.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
It isn't. It's a convenient re-definition by the writer of that conversation to remove any transhuman associations from Shepard. Given that - as Dr.Doctor said upthread - biotics are considered transhuman in ME1, and Shepart can be a biotic, this is weird. As I said, someone appears to have an agenda there.

Possibly. Although it seems that the idea of transhumanism has returned in synthesis (which is one of the things I like about it). Or really not just in synthesis, since the idea that organics strive for perfection by integrating technology (possibly not the exact words?) isn't limited to synthesis.

At one point, doesn't the catalyst say that, previously, organics weren't ready for synthesis yet? Any ideas on what that means? Why are they more ready now?

Ieldra2 wrote...
So apparently the greybox does contain the complete information that made up Keiji, or at least the scene is open to that interpretation, and the question is rather about what makes up our identities.

Sounds similar to the questions surrounding post-Lazarus Shepard.

Edit: Already noted above, I hadn't previously seen those comments.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juillet 2012 - 04:50 .

[Taboo]

Nimrodell wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...


The issue is whether or not you believe that the understanding should be forced. Having more storage space in my mind will not make me understand Synthetics and not fear them. A change to my brain would have to occur.

Synthesis is an upgrade sure, but one that simply avoids the issue by solving it in the most blunt manner possible. Can't relate? Remove the difference between man and machine. That's tedious **** you're dealing with there. That's what Synthesis does. Michael Gamble has stated this. All you've done is remove distinguishing factors between us. We remain individuals but we are as Mr. Gamble remarks "just life".

And yet, just imagine if you could actually connect to me, with my very being and see the world from my eyes, sense my emotions, learn why I grew up to be a person I am today - with such different views on life, politics, people, great questions, and if I were able to do the same - sense, learn your views, understandings, background - wouldn't it allow you to understand and from your own experience learn and change accordingly? Whether you like it or not, the very presence of the reapers and the pattern is forcing change in itself, even after destroy, the state of things, of minds will never be the same (we already discussed that). Synthesis is just more obvious, less subtle change, a visible one.

You have children yes? Humans already bond together with hormones and such. When people have sex, a chemical called Oxytocin is created. It bonds people together. The Love Hormone creates things like breast milk and allows the mother to care for her child. Those things are inherent. People can usually coexist without much trouble, with the occasional hiccup here and there.

I was abused as a child, so it can be difficult to relate to people sometimes, but I understand them because I make the effort to. But it's not my place to make people understand me for any reason. You either will or you won't. But not understanding the way things work also creates things like art, which as Mordin states is a sign of philosophical growth. If I understood everything about you, there would be no need for...much of anything.

I have no idea why Ieldra likes Synthesis but I would assume that a mutual respect (again, I hope) prevents us from going over the deep end and killing one another. The issue is, and always has been balance. Too much of one thing is bad.

Destroy isn't the Catalysts ideal solution, but it is mankinds. Things will continue as they did before the Reaper Invasion. I choose it because it's more realistic, at least thematically. The only caveat is that I must brutally murder millions of beings. It isn't justifiable, but I can take responsibility for it. I won't interfere with the way life works because that isn't my resonsibility.

But that's art for you.

[Ieldra]

@Taboo:
I like Synthesis because it is a jump into the unknown, a new and exotic future with limitless possibilities. You said you chose Destroy because "things will continue as they did before". You can count on me to always choose the ending as far away from that as possible. In any game where I get such a choice and as long as it doesn't mean that I destroy civilization or suchlike. I also like the ascension theme, the spirit of advancement and the transhumanist aspects of Synthesis. All in all, it's pretty much an irresistible option for my main Shepard.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 juillet 2012 - 06:18 .

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Taboo:
I like Synthesis because it is a jump into the unknown, a new and exotic future with limitless possibilities. You said you chose Destroy because "things will continue as they did before". You can count on me to always choose the ending as far away from that as possible. In any game where I get such a choice and as long as it doesn't mean that I destroy civilization or suchlike. I also like the ascension theme, the spirit of advancement and the transhumanist aspects of Synthesis. All in all, it's pretty much an irresistible option for my main Shepard.

I've always seen transhumanism as a voluntary aspect of society. In time, we'll see things like synthetic arms and legs, but that should be a choice, not a forced ideal. There aren't humans anymore in Synthesis Ieldra, Michael Gamble has alluded to this. Everyone is just one big...life form.

"Just life" was the phrase I believe.

The one aspect that I do find appealing about Synthesis is that it would be for everyone, rich or poor.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Taboo:
I like Synthesis because it is a jump into the unknown, a new and exotic future with limitless possibilities. You said you chose Destroy because "things will continue as they did before". You can count on me to always choose the ending as far away from that as possible. In any game where I get such a choice and as long as it doesn't mean that I destroy civilization or suchlike. I also like the ascension theme, the spirit of advancement and the transhumanist aspects of Synthesis. All in all, it's pretty much an irresistible option for my main Shepard.

I've always seen transhumanism as a voluntary aspect of society. In time, we'll see things like synthetic arms and legs, but that should be a choice, not a forced ideal. There aren't humans anymore in Synthesis Ieldra, Michael Gamble has alluded to this. Everyone is just one big...life form.

"Just life" was the phrase I believe.

The one aspect that I do find appealing about Synthesis is that it would be for everyone, rich or poor.

Mike Gamble's tweet was
(1) Complete nonsense for reasons I have outlined in the OP.
(2) Pre EC. Post EC organics and synthetics remain distinct for now and are differently affected by the Synthesis, there is no "biochemical unity" any more, and the exact way how the line between them may disappear in future is left to our imagination. 

Also, it appears to me that how much technology you integrate remains pretty much anyone's own choice post-Synthesis. Synthesis just makes seamless integration possible. Maybe there's that mental networking I speculated about as a basic functionality, but that's about it.

The Catalyst says Synthesis can't be forced. Well, there's definitely some forced change, but if that sentence isn't a complete lie, Synthesis will create the smallest possible change that will solve the problem and leave everything else optional. What we are seeing in the epilogue is an artistic representation of a mostly invisible change. I recall Jessica Merizan saying there are elements in the ending which aren't meant to be taken literally.

[Taboo]

Synthesis is a fusion of man and machine. Husks, Cannibals and Brutes are just imperfect specimens.

You can't force it because that's what happens, you get monsters.

Synthesis achieves the perfect balance and removes the distinguishing traits between the two. That's the point.

I understand Werner the Geth because we have a similar makeup now. Werner now understands me because I am like him.

The goal of Synthesis is to make the hypothetical conflict moot by making us similar biologically.

Vega is now composed of the same things Werner the Geth is.

As such we can now progress like Synthetics.

But we aren't human anymore.

There's "just life."

[Taboo]

Fandango9641 wrote...

No one has the right to make that particular choice on behaf of those who do not want it. It's a violation. Whats to discuss?

I don't really have a right to kill the Geth either but it's the choice I made.

The endings are also about how you wish to deal with the after WITH the Reapers as well.

I choose Destroy for many numbers of reasons, but vengeance is not on the list. Such a thing is tant amount to barbarism.

I seriously doubt anyone who chooses Synthesis is doing it for malicious purposes, I just think it's a bit foolish for Shepard to literally take a leap into the unknown like that.

But that's kind of the point of Synthesis.

I'd feel better about Synthesis if it didn't kill Shepard, but only because I feel that he/she must take responsibility for it. I still wouldn't choose it but I'd feel better about it.

[Taboo]

Fandango9641 wrote...

One can make a bad choice for the very best of reasons for sure but dont think for a second that anyone has the moral authority to enjoin genocide, slavery or what basically amounts to space-eugenics.

None of the choices are ethical.

I can't interfere past stopping the opposing force. This is why I can't choose Control or Synthesis.

I won't risk my Shepard's already troubled mind and put it into an AI that may do something I would regret. My morals are not the galaxies. I cannot police everyone.

Synthesis interferes with self determination and the basic functions of life. Not my choice to make.

I can't choose Refuse because that's just asnine.

But killing others to save the many was never against the rule book. Destroy is both a violation of my Shepard base moral principles and a choice that supports it. All the responsibility falls to one man. No one else has to take the blame for my crimes but me. It all stops when I shoot the pipe.

That isn't justifiable in any context and it never will be, but it's certainly something he'll be taking responsibility for.

In the end I have to become the enemy to Destroy the enemy.

The tragic thing however, is that the galaxy will not see the Geth as victims.

But that's the realism I strive for in art.

Cold, unmoving and always present.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Synthesis achieves the perfect balance and removes the distinguishing traits between the two. That's the point.

Well, no. Post-EC, that isn't the point any more. Organics can integrate technology and synthetics gain full understanding of organics. Each gets *some* traits associated with the other, but they are still distinct. Watch the epilogue, listen to the Catalyst. Or just read the reference material in the OP.

The goal of Synthesis is to make the hypothetical conflict moot by making us similar biologically.

And that isn't the point any more. At all. Organics appear to get some biological change, but that change in itself will not bring them closer to synthetics. That's what integrated technology may do, but that's largely optional.

Vega is now composed of the same things Werner the Geth is.

No.

As such we can now progress like Synthetics.

We can do that now by integrating technology, but we do stay basically organic. Synthetics can also integrate more technology, but they remain synthetic.

Eh...I thought this "homogenization" thing died with the EC. Hmph.

[Taboo]

No, we aren't homogenized.

We are simply similar to Synthetics biologically.

Vega is still Vega, but he more closely resembles a Geth in terms of makeup.

We cannot progress like Synthetics Ieldra because we are organics. They do not need to eat, sleep or do anything of the sort.

In three hundred years the Geth were almost able to surpass the Reapers with a Dyson sphere and reach a singularity. Legion states this.

But now we can too because the line between man and machine is blurred.

The entire point of Synthesis is to close the gap between Synthetics and Organics. But because we are now similar we can progress rapidly.

This was the entire point of EDI's speech.

The only thing missing from that epilogue was John Lennon's Imagine.

Key word is "Imagine".

[Taboo]

Fandango9641 wrote...

I'd rather play a game that didn't require one become a war criminal. In any case, it appears we agree on everything but our willingness to role-play a genocidal ****head. Those who insist on extolling the virtues of these choices however.....

I'm not a genocidal ****head.

I'm a human being who made a choice that I thought was right. I am inherently flawed.

My ending isn't particularly happy because I refuse to make it into something it's not. I refuse to turn into into sunshine and daises.

I don't see it as a joke either. I'm dead serious. The only thing preventing my Shepard from putting a bullet through his head is Miranda.

To make the ending into anything else would be wrong. I refuse to do it.

[flemm]

I'm intrigued by synthesis as a possibility (just speaking theoretically), and as a possible future in this particular fictional universe. It's really more intriguing than the other options (which isn't to say I'm opposed to them, I don't really have a favorite or "canon" or whatever).

The manner in which synthesis is depicted (everyone transformed by the green cloud) is something I have a bit of hard time taking seriously. But it's fiction. So... I'm ok with making that leap and focusing on the merits of the concept.

Modifié par flemm, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:34 .

[Ieldra]

Taboo, that's your interpretation. I see nothing of organics resembling synthetics in terms of biology. Because synthetics don't have biology remember? That was the whole point of the changed description in the EC, to clarify that synthetics are affected in different ways than organics, giving organics a way to keep up with synthetics while keeping their basically organic shape, through integrated technology. For now at least, until a point comes where naturally evolved biological matter isn't a factor in life anymore. But that point lies in the future. It's a possibility some may embrace while others won't.

We can repeat these points ad infinitum but you're still pre-EC with your arguments.

[Shaigunjoe]

Fandango9641 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Fandango9641 wrote...

One can make a bad choice for the very best of reasons for sure but dont think for a second that anyone has the moral authority to enjoin genocide, slavery or what basically amounts to space-eugenics.

None of the choices are ethical.

I can't interfere past stopping the opposing force. This is why I can't choose Control or Synthesis.

I won't risk my Shepard's already troubled mind and put it into an AI that may do something I would regret. My morals are not the galaxies. I cannot police everyone.

Synthesis interferes with self determination and the basic functions of life. Not my choice to make.

I can't choose Refuse because that's just asnine.

But killing others to save the many was never against the rule book. Destroy is both a violation of my Shepard base moral principles and a choice that supports it. All the responsibility falls to one man. No one else has to take the blame for my crimes but me. It all stops when I shoot the pipe.

That isn't justifiable in any context and it never will be, but it's certainly something he'll be taking responsibility for.

In the end I have to become the enemy to Destroy the enemy.

The tragic thing however, is that the galaxy will not see the Geth as victims.

But that's the realism I strive for in art.

Cold, unmoving and always present.

I'd rather play a game that didn't require one become a war criminal. In any case, it appears we agree on everything but our willingness to role-play a genocidal ****head. Those who insist on extolling the virtues of these choices however.....

Hey, you are only a criminal if you are breaking the law, and the council doesn't seem to have any problems with genocide (even less if it's of robots).