9089 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

jtav wrote...

Regarding the Keiji quote, is this the way mortality will be transcended? Because it certainly seems the new Keiji can pass for the original well enough to satisfy even those who loved him best. The AI can pass the ultimate Turing test. The Echo Shard contains memories from the Prothean Empire. Can that be reborn in some digital world. Shepard was the last owner of the Shard. Assuming it wasn't destroyed, does that mean he can come back?

That's a very interesting question.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
I'm intrigued by synthesis as a possibility (just speaking theoretically), and as a possible future in this particular fictional universe. It's really more intriguing than the other options (which isn't to say I'm opposed to them, I don't really have a favorite or "canon" or whatever).

The manner in which synthesis is depicted (everyone transformed by the green cloud) is something I have a bit of hard time taking seriously. But it's fiction. So... I'm ok with making that leap and focusing on the merits of the concept.

LOL, I think that's one of the main reasons why I choose Synthesis with my main Shepard: it's simply more interesting and unusual than the other options. Control is nice, too. Destroy? Too conventional though I have two Shepards for that as well.

[TMA LIVE]

Speaking of the Shard, ME2 news had a story about a virtual world where people lived their lives inside it, to avoid dying. They had to transfer themselves into people in order to get out. I wonder what Synthesis does to them?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:39 .

[Taboo]

Shaigunjoe wrote...

Hey, you are only a criminal if you are breaking the law, and the council doesn't seem to have any problems with genocide (even less if it's of robots).

That isn't point.

This is the point.

Having the Geth die above Rannoch is just as bad. I see it as a moral failing either way.

Parusing my film collection only drove home the point that I really, really, like nihilism/fatalism/skepticism in art.

Even the paintings at my home reflect this.

Except the Soviet Progapanda poster, I keep that there to remind me about false art.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 19 juillet 2012 - 07:51 .

[Ieldra]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Speaking of the Shard, ME2 news had a story about a virtual world where people lived their lives inside it, to avoid dying. They had to transfer themselves into people in order to get out. I wonder what Synthesis does to them?

Organic minds in a synthetic shell. Were did we hear that before, LOL? I would presume that Synthesis won't affect them at all. They don't have an organic body to change and neither a synthetic mind to bestow understanding on.

@jtav:
I believe that if Shepard's memories are stored in the Echo Shard to the same extent Keiji's memories are stored in the greybox, it could be used to reconstruct Shepard within a synthetic body.

[Taboo]

It's not Shepard.

A clone is not the same thing as the person it was made from.

Whatever Shepard was is gone forever.

I seem to recall something in the Matrix about how much actual energy the human body stored. A pair of batteries I think.

A pair of batteries is needed to activate Synthesis.

[DistantUtopia]

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's not Shepard.

A clone is not the same thing as the person it was made from.

Whatever Shepard was is gone forever.

I seem to recall something in the Matrix about how much actual energy the human body stored. A pair of batteries I think.

A pair of batteries is needed to activate Synthesis.

LOL!  So all Shepard needed was the energizer bunny!

[Taboo]

Well the Catalyst states this so I'm assuming that's what it's doing.

I think they're D-Volt batteries by the way.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
LOL, I think that's one of the main reasons why I choose Synthesis with my main Shepard: it's simply more interesting and unusual than the other options. Control is nice, too. Destroy? Too conventional though I have two Shepards for that as well.

Well, being interesting makes up for a lot in fiction

[TMA LIVE]

Ieldra2 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
Speaking of the Shard, ME2 news had a story about a virtual world where people lived their lives inside it, to avoid dying. They had to transfer themselves into people in order to get out. I wonder what Synthesis does to them?

Organic minds in a synthetic shell. Were did we hear that before, LOL? I would presume that Synthesis won't affect them at all. They don't have an organic body to change and neither a synthetic mind to bestow understanding on.

Like I said, it was a news story one Cerberus Network.

http://masseffect.wi..._Salarian_Space

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
It's not Shepard.

A clone is not the same thing as the person it was made from.

Whatever Shepard was is gone forever.

I was speaking of reconstruction in a synthetic body, not a clone. The different doesn't matter much though, except for ethics. Anyway, I disagree with you:

Here we come to the difficult matter of what identity is. If identity lies in the mind, and the mind is information, and all information of what made up Shepard's identity is stored in the Echo Shard, then a Shepard reconstructed from the Echo Shard, for all intents and purposes, is Shepard. Unless you presume some transcendent quality of personhood - which I don't.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...
It's not Shepard.

A clone is not the same thing as the person it was made from.

Whatever Shepard was is gone forever.

I was speaking of reconstruction in a synthetic body, not a clone. The different doesn't matter much though, except for ethics. Anyway, I disagree with you:

Here we come to the difficult matter of what identity is. If identity lies in the mind, and the mind is information, and all information of what made up Shepard's identity is stored in the Echo Shard, then a Shepard reconstructed from the Echo Shard, for all intents and purposes, is Shepard. Unless you presume some transcendent quality of personhood - which I don't.

No, I don't. I was very frustrated when my Shepard turned Southern Baptist before the run to the beam.

The Shepard that jumps into the beam is Shepard, an organic with Synthetic components.

The new Shepard would essentially be grown from cells.

That is not the same as the one that was a mass of flesh and tubes when Cerberus got a hold of him.

It's the same with Keiji's Grey Box.

Keiji was killed by Donovan Hock and had the box ripped from his skull.

You're reconstructing an entity from memories, not a full brain and corpse.

[Nimrodell]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Nimrodell wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...


The issue is whether or not you believe that the understanding should be forced. Having more storage space in my mind will not make me understand Synthetics and not fear them. A change to my brain would have to occur.

Synthesis is an upgrade sure, but one that simply avoids the issue by solving it in the most blunt manner possible. Can't relate? Remove the difference between man and machine. That's tedious **** you're dealing with there. That's what Synthesis does. Michael Gamble has stated this. All you've done is remove distinguishing factors between us. We remain individuals but we are as Mr. Gamble remarks "just life".

And yet, just imagine if you could actually connect to me, with my very being and see the world from my eyes, sense my emotions, learn why I grew up to be a person I am today - with such different views on life, politics, people, great questions, and if I were able to do the same - sense, learn your views, understandings, background - wouldn't it allow you to understand and from your own experience learn and change accordingly? Whether you like it or not, the very presence of the reapers and the pattern is forcing change in itself, even after destroy, the state of things, of minds will never be the same (we already discussed that). Synthesis is just more obvious, less subtle change, a visible one.

You have children yes? Humans already bond together with hormones and such. When people have sex, a chemical called Oxytocin is created. It bonds people together. The Love Hormone creates things like breast milk and allows the mother to care for her child. Those things are inherent. People can usually coexist without much trouble, with the occasional hiccup here and there.

I was abused as a child, so it can be difficult to relate to people sometimes, but I understand them because I make the effort to. But it's not my place to make people understand me for any reason. You either will or you won't. But not understanding the way things work also creates things like art, which as Mordin states is a sign of philosophical growth. If I understood everything about you, there would be no need for...much of anything.

I have no idea why Ieldra likes Synthesis but I would assume that a mutual respect (again, I hope) prevents us from going over the deep end and killing one another. The issue is, and always has been balance. Too much of one thing is bad.

Destroy isn't the Catalysts ideal solution, but it is mankinds. Things will continue as they did before the Reaper Invasion. I choose it because it's more realistic, at least thematically. The only caveat is that I must brutally murder millions of beings. It isn't justifiable, but I can take responsibility for it. I won't interfere with the way life works because that isn't my resonsibility.

But that's art for you.

Don't mix oxytocin with true bonding and understanding bit. Scientists may claim many things and yes, I didn't love my children before I actually gave birth to them, but that's only the beginning - oxytocin or not blood connection or not, as soon as we become more aware, different mechanism start... This may sound like a blasphemy, but we don't love or understand because of hormones... sometimes we do... but it all comes also with conditioning, learning, even petty things like bribery. I don't know if I'm clear enough - I am a mother and I am a daughter in the same time, also a wife and a teacher, yet again, my daughters would not love me and try to follow a good path in life if I behaved like my parents did. We, human beings, are prone to lie about our own motives when it comes to love and understanding and very often those emotions? categories? are conditioned, artificial and yet, even though they were gained in dishonest ways, at the end, the were proven as a better choice. Dear Taboo, we're talking about too complex things and we have to be honest, in modern society we'll find seldom examples of true human nature, of how the true life works. I'll give you one silly example and perhaps even make you laugh:

Women in modern society are already artificial in many regards - human female also has hairs on her body (armpits, legs, sometimes even on the face) and it was normal state of female body 'til the Second World War (and in Eastern Block countries women didn't shave even in '80s). With shortening of skirts, blouses and ofc true pin-up girl posters expansion, suddenly, females became smooth and hairless - and that became ideal of female body even though it's not natural way - we still have them . The conditioning starts very early now with young girls - at the age of 11, 12, 13, we have mothers obssessing about it and daughters learning that women are desirable and lovable, considered tidy and clean only if those hairs are removed. Now, where are true ways of life there? I know, I'm oversimplifying it - but that is our true nature - we impose things we deem better - there is no true freedom. Ah, but I can bet you'll misunderstand me, because this is stupid forum form and not a real talk. I just hope I made a bit smile. After all, to get serious, each age brought forced change upon the world and human kind - and those 'earthquake' changes are in our nature and we may love 'em or hate 'em, eventually we accept them, because there's more to it than just idle heroic speeches - we are animals after all too. After all, even Jesus did that .

Edit: added one -ing .

Modifié par Nimrodell, 19 juillet 2012 - 11:42 .

[Taboo]

I'm referring to the inevitability of chaos. People exist in small groups that usually coexist well until something comes up. I don't need human bonding chemicals to understand where you come from.

But freedom? Nothing new. Most of the critical film essays I've written have been about a filmmaker called Nagisa Oshima. Those films are about the continual loss of freedom and the natural resistance to it. His protagonists always lose. Always. Society is both a blessing and a curse. Humans must live together in order to remain healthy, but they also risk other things by being together.

Oshima understood that that's the way things are. I see the world much the same way. You can fight all you want but **** is always going to go down and it's going to be ugly.

As for women, I've also written things on Feminist Cinema. I'm well aware about the issue with women and what society does to them.

Unfortunately I don't think that Synthesis is going to solve any of those issues as Ieldra keeps stating that this is just a tech upgrade. That's great, but it won't resolve past issues set in stone. The Krogans still hate the Salarians.

Bresson, Oshima, Haneke, Angelopoulos best reflect what I see in both the world and art. The world is cold and unfeeling and that's the way it's always going to be, Synthesis or not.

Synthesis avoids the issue entirely. The Synthesis epilogue is downright creepy in parts, to the point that I truly wonder what Bioware was thinking. Worse yet it glosses things over, which is wrong.

The point of art is to be a reflection of life but most importantly to be honest in doing so. Synthesis does the former but not the latter. It's idealized and it bothers me a great deal.

It needs to be both ugly and beautiful at the same time. This is what separates art from propaganda. When you're no longer thinking about what it is, you're in trouble.

Destroy has the same issue by not showing the Geth being deactivated.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

It isn't easy being green.

[Aurora313]

I'd rather think that Synthesis actually spurs an entirely new conflict, like I've been pointing out for the last day or two. After the rebuild is done, which would be probably 20-30 years at the least, a new conflict will arise. Some hybrids would want to ascend, others would probably want to regress back to their normal forms and reestablish that line.

Regressors are able to do it, but then conflict ensues when they try to offer the Ascenders the same opportunity to return, but they refuse. Initially the two factions are ok with each other, but then split off to do their own thing and eventually, they rediscover each other a few hundred years down the line - some people want to call for a new peace an cooperation, but more want to destroy the Ascenders.

The Ascendded fight back to protect themselves.

Bascially, it becomes a rehash of the synthetic/ORganics war, but now it becomes Regressors/Ascendeds.

[Taboo]

Actually from what information trickled out of Comic Con, everything takes about ten to fifteen years to rebuild.

I'm not sure how we do it so quickly in Destroy but it's an interesting thing to think about.

[Aurora313]

10 years for synthesised+Control endings, 15 for destroy is the way I figure.

In Control/Synthesis we have Reapers helping with heavy lifting and the actual relays +Citadel themselves. So, yeah. I figure Citadel+Charon Relay were first priority. The ones connecting to the Main worlds and Widow next, then the smaller ones.

Modifié par Aurora313, 20 juillet 2012 - 01:34 .

[Enthalpy]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You're reconstructing an entity from memories, not a full brain and corpse.

This reminds me of the bit in the Codex about AI blueboxes -- if they're disturbed, you wind up with a different personality but presumably the exact same memories. I think this establishes Mass Effect canon that memory and personality are disjoint.

(Why oh why did they include the Kasumi slide. Argh.)

[Taboo]

Enthalpy wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

You're reconstructing an entity from memories, not a full brain and corpse.

This reminds me of the bit in the Codex about AI blueboxes -- if they're disturbed, you wind up with a different personality but presumably the exact same memories. I think this establishes Mass Effect canon that memory and personality are disjoint.

(Why oh why did they include the Kasumi slide. Argh.)

Shepard is as deader than dead in three of the four endings.

The AI in Control is not Shepard. It is essentially a copy and paste of data to an AI construct. Whatever he was dissolves when he grabs the rods.

As for Synthesis, what you have is disintegration. His energy is absorbed and sent out.

And then there's refuse.

There is no feasible way to bring back Shepard in Control, Synthesis or Refuse.

A clone is not the same as the original either. It's a new being.

So you're pretty much **** out of luck.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 20 juillet 2012 - 02:25 .

[Eterna]

I don't see why people dislike synthesis, Everybody at the end seems so happy.

[Xamufam]

Eterna5 wrote...

I don't see why people dislike synthesis, Everybody at the end seems so happy.

And you don't find that suspicious, why would organics cooperate with the reapers after what the reapers has done?

Brainwashing For The Greater Good

Utopia Justifies the Means

Crapsaccharine World

Modifié par Troxa, 20 juillet 2012 - 07:03 .

[Xamufam]

Modifié par Troxa, 20 juillet 2012 - 07:02 .

[Nimrodell]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I'm referring to the inevitability of chaos. People exist in small groups that usually coexist well until something comes up. I don't need human bonding chemicals to understand where you come from.

But freedom? Nothing new. Most of the critical film essays I've written have been about a filmmaker called Nagisa Oshima. Those films are about the continual loss of freedom and the natural resistance to it. His protagonists always lose. Always. Society is both a blessing and a curse. Humans must live together in order to remain healthy, but they also risk other things by being together.

Oshima understood that that's the way things are. I see the world much the same way. You can fight all you want but **** is always going to go down and it's going to be ugly.

As for women, I've also written things on Feminist Cinema. I'm well aware about the issue with women and what society does to them.

Unfortunately I don't think that Synthesis is going to solve any of those issues as Ieldra keeps stating that this is just a tech upgrade. That's great, but it won't resolve past issues set in stone. The Krogans still hate the Salarians.

Bresson, Oshima, Haneke, Angelopoulos best reflect what I see in both the world and art. The world is cold and unfeeling and that's the way it's always going to be, Synthesis or not.

Synthesis avoids the issue entirely. The Synthesis epilogue is downright creepy in parts, to the point that I truly wonder what Bioware was thinking. Worse yet it glosses things over, which is wrong.

The point of art is to be a reflection of life but most importantly to be honest in doing so. Synthesis does the former but not the latter. It's idealized and it bothers me a great deal.

It needs to be both ugly and beautiful at the same time. This is what separates art from propaganda. When you're no longer thinking about what it is, you're in trouble.

Destroy has the same issue by not showing the Geth being deactivated.

Never seen Oshima's films, to be honest, Japanese cinematography is my weaker side (it stops with Kurosawa and ofc Godzilla series, somehow, it's not my cup of tea) and I'll tell you, you are right and wrong in the same time. First, you have to be clear on this for the sake of other readers of your posts when it comes to poetics of art. Some believe and believed that art should be a reflection of life and honest while achieving that goal but it's not its true definition nor its rule, it's just one of many. Many before us perceived art differently and I am more firm believer that art can be reflection of life but also it is a prism through which the reflection itself can be distorted or originate from something entirely different than life is. Plato would disagree with you, Aristotle would agree, and so on.

I told you before that synthesis is just less subtle than destroy and flawed in it's depiction, but synthesis did reflect something from the life itself - something that happens on daily basis and it's ability to see what's called Truth from more points of view. The flawed part was EDI's speech and the slide of harmony depicted because there's another truth when you achieve such state - you may understand, but you don't have to agree, just like nowadays I fully understand why some things happen but I don't condone such ways or agree with them and in that point you are absolutely correct . And all three choices have that same moment in them.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Troxa wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

I don't see why people dislike synthesis, Everybody at the end seems so happy.

And you don't find that suspicious, why would organics cooperate with the reapers after what the reapers has done?

Brainwashing For The Greater Good

Utopia Justifies the Means

Crapsaccharine World

Oh hey its you again Still stuck in the brainwash logic I see. let me ask you, did you not find anything suspecious with reapers taking a stroll by london, or hovering above the earth like friendly parrots in control ending? you can also see harbinger among the reapers, with his six blue eyes. Imagine that! Also, did you not find it suspecious how joker is happy despite losing EDI in destroy ending? infact even the crewmates seem to forget their dead hero, so much so that even Hackett seems to forget Shepard, who is mentioned in the other two epilogues. dead reapers can also indoctrinate you know. I'd give that brainwashing is one of the possibilities, but there is nothing in the game to suggest it has ACTUALLY happened. The epilogue scene can take place in the future, nowhere is it stated it is immediately after the ending. Wounds can heal, no matter what you say. We've seen this time and again throughout the whole trilogy.