9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Xandurpein wrote...
When the main argument is that something was meant to be good, but get little or no real facts, you invariably run into the problem of second guessing the writer.

It's not the main argument. The main argument is that it is actually shown to be a good ending. People denying what's in front of their eyes, that's the problem *I* have now. Pre-EC, I had only the themes to back up my opinion that it's a good ending. Now, it's actually shown. That's it, people. Move on, nothing sinister to see here, except if you want to see the green eyes that way.

Even the Destroy ending had huge problems with that prior to the EC. I thought the writer intended the High EMS Destroy ending was intended to be as bleak as it first seemed. I thought it was meant to be a true renegade ending where Shepard lives happily ever after with his LI and didn't bother about that the rest of the Galaxy was in ruins.

I think Destroy was originally meant that way. Not exactly Renegade, no, but clearly "reject the Reapers' legacy which includes the mass relays", which were never to be rebuilt. That would've been thematically appropriate but pissed off the majority of Destroy fans if it was so much worse than the other endings. So they retconned it.
(It is notable that in the leaked script, Destroy was the only ending that destroyed the relays. The others didn't. But then they nerfed the other endings, I suspect for balance)

I still wonder about the possibility of Synthesis leading to some kind of Galactic hive mind. I don't like that idea, but I don't know if the weiters thought it was a cool idea.

I don't see any association of Synthesis with a galactic hive mind. But then, I don't see any particular imagery come up from the original Synthesis, that's the problem. I took my inspiration from the leaked script. See the link in the OP if you don't know how Synthesis was described there. The leaked script clearly alluded to transhumanism, so that's what I associated with the published original version as well. Perhaps that little fact is needed to see why I came up with my interpretation. Fortunately, the EC proved me mostly right.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 juillet 2012 - 04:10 .

[Taboo]

saracen16 wrote...

"I am the evolution of organic life."
- Saren

Saren is probably the worst example you could use to help your case with Synthesis. All that banner does is convince people that you're off your rocker.

And I'm trying to help you here, not be detrimental.

[BeastSaver]

A lot of people seem to think that Synthesis is the "sunshine and bunnies" ending. In one of my playthroughs, I saved Maelon's data, Urdnot Bakara lived, and the Krogran leader is Urdnot Wreve. One of the EC slides showed the beginnings of a showdown between the Krogan females and males, probably over the fate of the children - to lift up their society or to use as vehicles of revenge. So that seems to disprove that all is well, that everyone understands one another, etc.

Edited to add: Never mind...this was the slide for the Destroy ending.

Modifié par BeastSaver, 28 juillet 2012 - 07:40 .

[Taboo]

That's because it only solves the issue between organics and Synthetics.

Everything else is up for grabs.

The understanding comes from that.

[Ieldra]

BeastSaver wrote...
A lot of people seem to think that Synthesis is the "sunshine and bunnies" ending. In one of my playthroughs, I saved Maelon's data, Urdnot Bakara lived, and the Krogran leader is Urdnot Wreve. One of the EC slides showed the beginnings of a showdown between the Krogan females and males, probably over the fate of the children - to lift up their society or to use as vehicles of revenge. So that seems to disprove that all is well, that everyone understands one another, etc.

That's interesting. There appear to be three versions of Tuchanka slides. I recall seing that slide somewhere but it wasn't in my games. 

BTW, Taboo is right: the understanding only applies to synthetics gaining full understanding of organics, and maybe implicitly vice versa since organics can now integrate technology like synthetics.

[lillitheris]

BeastSaver wrote...

One of the EC slides showed the beginnings of a showdown between the Krogan females and males, probably over the fate of the children - to lift up their society or to use as vehicles of revenge.

Um, can you get a screen capture/YouTube out of this? I don’t recall having seen the particular slide whence you extract this interpretation, thousand words and all…

[Taboo]

^ Also, if you cure the Genophage and Wreav is in charge without Eve, he goes to war.

[Ranger Jack Walker]

If you cure the genphage with Eve alive and Wreav in charge, you see 2 disturbing slides. One of Bakara and Wreav arguing while Wreav is holding a gun. The next slide shows wreav addressing a huge army.

So any one who says everyone is brainwashed into peace and all that BS is a raving idiot.

[Taboo]

^ It also proves that people are still dicks.

Which is also a problem.

Is it worth it to force a change about a hypothetical problem if it doesn't fix other issues?

[incinerator950]

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ It also proves that people are still dicks.

Which is also a problem.

Is it worth it to force a change about a hypothetical problem if it doesn't fix other issues?

It depends on the perspective of the one asking the question.

[Ieldra]

Ranger Jack Walker wrote...

If you cure the genphage with Eve alive and Wreav in charge, you see 2 disturbing slides. One of Bakara and Wreav arguing while Wreav is holding a gun. The next slide shows wreav addressing a huge army.

So any one who says everyone is brainwashed into peace and all that BS is a raving idiot.

I guess the brainwashing hypothesis just got a mortal wound from in-game evidence.

[Taboo]

^ Well you now understand Synthetics because you resemble them more closely biologically.

That doesn't come from getting a memory upgrade.

You'd need a change to do that.

[BeastSaver]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BeastSaver wrote...
A lot of people seem to think that Synthesis is the "sunshine and bunnies" ending. In one of my playthroughs, I saved Maelon's data, Urdnot Bakara lived, and the Krogran leader is Urdnot Wreve. One of the EC slides showed the beginnings of a showdown between the Krogan females and males, probably over the fate of the children - to lift up their society or to use as vehicles of revenge. So that seems to disprove that all is well, that everyone understands one another, etc.

That's interesting. There appear to be three versions of Tuchanka slides. I recall seing that slide somewhere but it wasn't in my games. 

BTW, Taboo is right: the understanding only applies to synthetics gaining full understanding of organics, and maybe implicitly vice versa since organics can now integrate technology like synthetics.

Well, crap! I have to eat my words. It was on a destroy game.

[Ieldra]

Hmm...so can anyone confirm or deny that you get those two slides in Synthesis if you cure the genophage with Wreav in charge and Eve alive? I don't have a game with that combination.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I guess the brainwashing hypothesis just got a mortal wound from in-game evidence.

About time. I always found the brainwashing hypothesis very silly. They ain't fighting so they must be brainwashed! whaat??

Taboo-XX wrote...

^ It also proves that people are still dicks.

Which is also a problem.

Is it worth it to force a change about a hypothetical problem if it doesn't fix other issues?

People will always be dicks. Probably it is worth it if it brings organics and synthetics to a closer understanding of each other? So that the hypothetical problem remains hypothetical and never materializes? The way I see it, there is an underlying current of tension between synthetics and organics, from pre-ME1. It's been there before the Geth rebeled, hence the galaxywide ban on research of AI tech which was in place before the Geth. Sure I don't see it escalating into the sort of galactic nonsense the way the Catalyst describes, but it is there. And it is there because organics and synthetics fundamentally fail to understand each other. Talking to Tali in ME1 and Legion during his loyalty mission, and also not to forget Javik, I got this feeling alot. Synthesis can work towards bridging this gap. It won't fill the gap completely, other problems would still exist, dicks would still exist, but.. *In Tali's voice* its a start.
Thoughts?

Ieldra2 wrote...



Hmm...so can anyone confirm or deny that you get those two slides in Synthesis if you cure the genophage with Wreav in charge and Eve alive? I don't have a game with that combination.

I' planning to do the same. Kill Wrex, help Wreav ascend, keep Eve alive and cure the genophage. Then watch the fun as they get synthesized. Sadly I'm only in ME1, just saved Liara. 
:/

Also, why do I feel that post-synthesis, dead/messiah Shepard would be revered more by synthetics than syntherganics?

Modifié par pirate1802, 28 juillet 2012 - 07:52 .

[Ranger Jack Walker]

Save Editor perhaps?

[Aurora313]

pirate1802 wrote...

Also, why do I feel that post-synthesis, dead/messiah Shepard would be revered more by synthetics than syntherganics?

I figure that Shepard  would be hated by a very large sum of Synthesized organics.

[Ieldra]

Aurora313 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Also, why do I feel that post-synthesis, dead/messiah Shepard would be revered more by synthetics than syntherganics?

I figure that Shepard  would be hated by a very large sum of Synthesized organics.

Except that nobody knows what exactly happened on the Citadel. As far as anyone knows, this was the only solution.

[Nimrodell]

Aurora313 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Also, why do I feel that post-synthesis, dead/messiah Shepard would be revered more by synthetics than syntherganics?

I figure that Shepard  would be hated by a very large sum of Synthesized organics.

You assume a lot, let me give you an example. I didn't like Elder Scrolls: Oblivion because that game was an avatar of everything I hate in old RPG system - too complicated, feels more like work and obligation than real fun, etc, and for long I didn't want to buy Skyrim. A week ago, Skyrim was on Steam sales and I bought it for half price... thinking, ok, I should really see if I can actually go through this one - but I tell you, my expectations were really low - I've already prepared myself to hate it. But, as soon as I started, I saw that Skyrim is way different than Oblivion, more fluent, less stuffed with time-padding quests... and unimaginable happened, I played Skyrim like there's no tomorrow - enjoyed it big time. So, basically, the only thing that was stopping me from playing Skyrim before was my own preconception and prejudice, partial info that did more harm than good. You can't possibly know what you're claiming - synth organics have knowledge that you don't possess now .

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...
The way I see it, there is an underlying current of tension between synthetics and organics, from pre-ME1. It's been there before the Geth rebeled, hence the galaxywide ban on research of AI tech which was in place before the Geth. Sure I don't see it escalating into the sort of galactic nonsense the way the Catalyst describes, but it is there. And it is there because organics and synthetics fundamentally fail to understand each other. Talking to Tali in ME1 and Legion during his loyalty mission, and also not to forget Javik, I got this feeling alot. Synthesis can work towards bridging this gap. It won't fill the gap completely, other problems would still exist, dicks would still exist, but.. *In Tali's voice* its a start.
Thoughts?

There is this underlying current of tension. It's just not prevalent enough to avoid the impression it comes out of the blue when you encounter the Catalyst.

Synthesis does bridge the gap. it won't bring perfect results, since for that understanding to take root, people still have to want to understand. But as you said, it's a good start. 

Also, why do I feel that post-synthesis, dead/messiah Shepard would be revered more by synthetics than syntherganics?

Not exactly more, but more universally. I think synthetics would appreciate Synthesis as a rule, while organics would have extremely varied attitudes. Salarians would mostly like it, humans would have their typical "three humans, six opinions". Asari would be wary but quick to adapt, krogan wary as a rule.

Edit:
Also, what Nimrodell said. (Thanks for pointing that out, Nimrodell)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 juillet 2012 - 08:55 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Ieldra2 wrote...


There is this underlying current of tension. It's just not prevalent enough to avoid the impression it comes out of the blue when you encounter the Catalyst.

Yes exactly. they didn't flesh it out enough, and I'm thinking this is the result of changing the storyline (or ending) at the last oent. Even for me, when the catalyst told me, I was like: hey that doesn't make sense, then I thought and thought it over, and arrived at the conclusion that the starchild makes the slightest bit of sense. A good motive shouldn't be like that. It should make you like: ohh yeah.. that makes sense! not require you think of it a hundred times to make sense. Hope i made myself clear xD

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Aurora313 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Also, why do I feel that post-synthesis, dead/messiah Shepard would be revered more by synthetics than syntherganics?

I figure that Shepard  would be hated by a very large sum of Synthesized organics.

Except that nobody knows what exactly happened on the Citadel. As far as anyone knows, this was the only solution.

Which is almost criminal in my opinion. Shepard should be able to tell people what's about to happen.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Suppose,

Maelon's data destroyed : Eve dies.
Wrex in charge : Wreav killed by thresher maw
Genophage sabotaged : Wrex dies.

Add to that, Grunt dead in suicide mission.

So who leads the Krogan then? What slide would we be shown? I remember one very early "leak" after EC was announced. It talked of a scenario where the synthesis beam hits Tuchanka as the Krogan are fighting among each other. I wonder if it had to do with this particular scenario.

Every Krogan leader dead + Synthesis (genophage cured) = Chaotic Tuchanka.

[Taboo]

I think they'd wipe one another out.

The Krogan are already dying off, without some form of unified leadership things are going to get ugly.

I'd imagine that there is no slide.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think they'd wipe one another out.

The Krogan are already dying off, without some form of unified leadership things are going to get ugly.

I'd imagine that there is no slide.

I think they should show something. In one of my game the Geth and Quarians both were dead, they showed me an empty Rannoch. So..

There is also a slide depicting a Rachni-infested Tuchanka. I wonder what triggers that. Letting fake queen go + genophage sabotaged + non-synthesis ending?