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[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...
There is also a slide depicting a Rachni-infested Tuchanka. I wonder what triggers that. Letting fake queen go + genophage sabotaged + non-synthesis ending?

I got that with Eve dead, Wreav in charge, sabotaged cure, original Rachni queen saved twice, Destroy.

[Taboo]

I got an adorable slide with Krogan babies and peace in Destroy.

With Wrex and Eve in charge the Krogan prosper and don't go to war.

Putting Wreav in charge sans Eve leads to war.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 28 juillet 2012 - 06:52 .

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
There is this underlying current of tension. It's just not prevalent enough to avoid the impression it comes out of the blue when you encounter the Catalyst.

Yes exactly. they didn't flesh it out enough, and I'm thinking this is the result of changing the storyline (or ending) at the last oent. Even for me, when the catalyst told me, I was like: hey that doesn't make sense, then I thought and thought it over, and arrived at the conclusion that the starchild makes the slightest bit of sense. A good motive shouldn't be like that. It should make you like: ohh yeah.. that makes sense! not require you think of it a hundred times to make sense. Hope i made myself clear xD

Absolutely. The ideal ending should be "Ah....now it all makes sense." Somewhat hard to do with something like the cycle, but it's been done before, for instance with the Inhibitors in the Revelation Space trilogy, who I believe inspired the Reapers somewhat. I think the main problem was that they pushed the horror up to eleven. That made any attempt at justification, by whoever and for whichever cause, automatically like supporting unnecessary, gratuitous evil. 

[DirtyPhoenix]

I think even with Eve alive, Krogan go to war under Wreav. The females aren't simply strong enough. :/

[Taboo]

The Reapers aren't evil in the sense that some Pro-Destroy people would like you to believe. They're more machine than anything. An indifferent being while under the Catalyst's control.

I'd play with D and D alignments here but I don't know were to put them.

I think that machines are Lawful Neutral if I remember correctly. They follow a set task and don't compromise. But the Leviathan DLC may change this.

What do you think?

[DirtyPhoenix]

Leviathan DLC is certainly going to be very interesting. Whats its approximate ETA?

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...
Leviathan DLC is certainly going to be very interesting. Whats its approximate ETA?

We have no idea. It hasn't even been announced officially. The only evidence is the hidden text in the EC, which was left there intentionally. I must say I'm looking forward to that quite a bit.

[lillitheris]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I think that machines are Lawful Neutral if I remember correctly.

Machines are not aligned, usually, since they perform a function. AIs are persons and as such their alignments are whatever traits they exhibit.

In this particular case, the Reapers either are, or are performing a function of, Neutral Evil (by the reckoning of the general morality expressed in the games).

[DirtyPhoenix]

Ieldra2 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
Leviathan DLC is certainly going to be very interesting. Whats its approximate ETA?

We have no idea. It hasn't even been announced officially. The only evidence is the hidden text in the EC, which was left there intentionally. I must say I'm looking forward to that quite a bit.

Some IT Theorists believe this Leviathan DLC is "that" DLC.

[Taboo]

pirate1802 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
Leviathan DLC is certainly going to be very interesting. Whats its approximate ETA?

We have no idea. It hasn't even been announced officially. The only evidence is the hidden text in the EC, which was left there intentionally. I must say I'm looking forward to that quite a bit.

Some IT Theorists believe this Leviathan DLC is "that" DLC.

wat. srsly wat.

I would expect it sometime in August.

Should be interesting.

It'll be underwater.

Hence the Leviathan in Bibilical stories being a great beast living the oceans depths. There's a great Werner Herzog quote about sea monsters somewhere...

Anyhoo it should be interesting to see this...whatever it is up close.

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
Leviathan DLC is certainly going to be very interesting. Whats its approximate ETA?

We have no idea. It hasn't even been announced officially. The only evidence is the hidden text in the EC, which was left there intentionally. I must say I'm looking forward to that quite a bit.

Some IT Theorists believe this Leviathan DLC is "that" DLC.

Amounts to taking the blue pill if you ask me.

Anway, I had so far avoided to read the complete spoiler text in the Leviathan thread, but I had to do it now. That sounds.....very, very interesting. I don't think there will be anything conclusive about the nature of the Reapers in there, since the uncertainty about that feeds the speculation, but they may be a tidbit of ambiguous information here and there - enough to make the ending debate flare up again. I'm looking forward to the DLC, but to the debates....not so much. I wonder if it will affect the various Synthesis scenarios.

[Eterna]

pirate1802 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
Leviathan DLC is certainly going to be very interesting. Whats its approximate ETA?

We have no idea. It hasn't even been announced officially. The only evidence is the hidden text in the EC, which was left there intentionally. I must say I'm looking forward to that quite a bit.

Some IT Theorists believe this Leviathan DLC is "that" DLC.

Calling them "theorists" gives them waay to much credit. It's too official and intelligent sounding. 

[Aurora313]

@Eterna5

Ravenous fanboy/girls then?

Modifié par Aurora313, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:30 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Eterna5 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
Leviathan DLC is certainly going to be very interesting. Whats its approximate ETA?

We have no idea. It hasn't even been announced officially. The only evidence is the hidden text in the EC, which was left there intentionally. I must say I'm looking forward to that quite a bit.

Some IT Theorists believe this Leviathan DLC is "that" DLC.

Calling them "theorists" gives them waay to much credit. It's too official and intelligent sounding. 

Well I'm 50-50 on IT. I don't think its true but I'd be happy if I'm proved to be wrong. And also, I was one of those "theorists" pre-EC. They are a dedicated bunch, just.. misguided.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I'm looking forward to the DLC, but to the debates....not so much. I wonder if it will affect the various Synthesis scenarios.

Seriously Ieldra.

[Ieldra]

@Taboo:
You see, I've said the same things too many times already. Between all the misconceptions, the plausible objections there is no way to resolve and the times where people just talk past each other, I'm tired of controversy. I want some constructive speculation, damn it, instead of the thrice-damned forum politics.

[Taboo]

Yes, well, this is a far better safe haven for discussion than most things. You'll see some boob in here espousing things like it's an indoctrinated choice, but I don't think you're at risk.

To be honest, I think what this will do is humanize the Reapers more. I already accept that as fact, and factor it into my ending choice, but I can see this actually helping you in the long run.

Although I predict the butthurt will be unprecedented from some people.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 29 juillet 2012 - 04:51 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes, well, this is a far better safe haven for discussion than most things. You'll see some boob in here espousing things like it's an indoctrinated choice, but I don't think you're at risk.

To be honest, I think what this will do is humanize the Reapers more. I already accept that as fact, and factor it into my ending choice, but I can see this actually helping you in the long run.

Although I predict the butthurt will be unprecedented from some people.

Heh, there is already a thread claiming all this DLC would do is "retcon" more to support their favourite ending.
Also, is it just me who views the reapers as, apart from machines that are trying to kill us, awe-inspiring super ancient machines worthy of studying? Guess I'm getting indoctrinated.

Modifié par pirate1802, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:00 .

[Taboo]

pirate1802 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes, well, this is a far better safe haven for discussion than most things. You'll see some boob in here espousing things like it's an indoctrinated choice, but I don't think you're at risk.

To be honest, I think what this will do is humanize the Reapers more. I already accept that as fact, and factor it into my ending choice, but I can see this actually helping you in the long run.

Although I predict the butthurt will be unprecedented from some people.

Heh, there is already a thread claiming all this DLC would do is "retcon" more to support their favourite ending.
Also, is it just me who views the reapers as awe-inspiring super-ancient machines worthy of studying, above the general super-evil rant? Guess I'm getting indoctrinated.

As much as it pains me, I factor in that killing the Reapers is best option, as it ensures that all of the other life can be free from their influence and can grow and posper sans the bull****. I would think that something that my Shepard could do with Miranda is study the now defunct machines and perhaps even harvest some of the material and see if we can't make some clones or something.

I don't play to that nonsense about the Reapers needing to be Destroyed because of payback or because they're evil. That causes some nasty arguments between me and some of the other Destroy people. I simply factor in every living thing. Synthetics just get ****ed over in my ending, but that's something I know my Shepard would take responsibility for. I talked about this in my blog post in my banner space.

I don't believe that forcing my will on the Galaxy permenently is the right choice for my Shepard, so Destroy is the most viable option in this regard. It sucks, but I believe it offers all life the ability to do as they please.

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes, well, this is a far better safe haven for discussion than most things. You'll see some boob in here espousing things like it's an indoctrinated choice, but I don't think you're at risk.

To be honest, I think what this will do is humanize the Reapers more. I already accept that as fact, and factor it into my ending choice, but I can see this actually helping you in the long run.

Although I predict the butthurt will be unprecedented from some people.

Heh, there is already a thread claiming all this DLC would do is "retcon" more to support their favourite ending.
Also, is it just me who views the reapers as, apart from machines that are trying to kill us, awe-inspiring super ancient machines worthy of studying? Guess I'm getting indoctrinated.

Definitely not just you. I've seen things like that ever since Virmire. I want to see the cycle ended and I want a good future for the galaxy, but right after that comes "I want to know everything that's possible to know about the Reapers". I've *begun* ME2 with the expectation that at the end we'd get our hands on some Reaper tech to study, so while I was glad to save the Collector base, I was thoroughly pissed to have to hand it to TIM, who I was sure wouldn't share his results with me. And so it went in ME3.

This is also one reason why I like the EC Synthesis ending. Finally, we get to know more. The civilizations of the galaxy I mean, not just ascended Control!Shepard who will keep the knowledge to itself to protect the galaxy from its risks.

@Taboo:
I respect your reasons to choose Destroy. Unlike those of some others.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 juillet 2012 - 05:18 .

[Aurora313]

Honestly, I chose to destroy the Collector base purely out of spite. My Shepards without exception hate TIM. And if it were the Alliance calling the shots in ME2, Shepard would have gladly given the base over to Hackett/Anderson/both.

Also, from a role-playing point of view, Shepard was acting out of a sense of vengeance for all the colonists. The horror and revulsion of watching Lilith being melted down in front of him was still pretty fresh in his mind, so he acted based on those emotions... that, and What the hell else did TIM expect any way? Killing Reapers is really the only thing on Shepard's mind most of the time, so why the hell does TIM expect him - especially Para-Shepard - to not blow up the base? I mean, seriously? Nice job fixing it, Villian.

Shepard wasn't given a choice to try and 'understand' the Reapers in ME2. Only 'blow them up' or 'blow them up with extreme prejudice'.

ME1 - we sort of get the option to ask what Sovereign is - he doesn't answer. ME3 - kind of, yes. Shepard flat out asks/demands to know just what the Reapers are/want.

... sorry if this makes no sense. Its morning and my brain doesn't work til About 3 or 4 in the afternoon.

[Taboo]

You don't understand their motivations because you're not a machine. The Reapers truly believe they are saving Organics. An organic will always resist, they have self preservation instincts.

Their meaning is simple, but it is NOT logic that is thought of by an organic. That's what Sovereign means.

Ieldra once said that this was a cosmic tragedy, it is. All of this has happened because someone didn't account for enough variables. It's entirely possible that we could be wiped out by Synthetics, but Shepard's cycle is something entirely new to the Catalyst, and he states this.

The Reapers are nothing more than the result of someone not taking responsibility for their creations. Much like Frankenstein's monster. They are more than capable of horrendous things, and the world will never accept them unless they make an effort.

A true tragedy in my opinion.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 29 juillet 2012 - 11:43 .

[Bill Casey]

The Reapers are not machines...

[Taboo]

Bill Casey wrote...

The Reapers are not machines...

EDI states that they emit both organic and inorganic signals. They have mechanical structures in them. The Geth refer to them as "The Old Machines" and Legion still speaks of them as having organic traits. They are Synthetic/Organic/Machine Hybrids.


But that does not make their existence any less viable, or tragic in my opinion.

[elitehunter34]

But we do understand their motivations. What Sovereign meant is that they were not comprehendable. The writers changed that by giving them an actual motivation, and it's an absurd one. Killing off advanced organics to stop a hypothetical scenario that is probably not going to happen because all evidence points to that not happening. If anything the Reapers should be killing off all microbial life. That has a much higher chance of killing off all life. If somehow a bacterial infection or virus was lethal to multiple species, it would have a much higher chance of killing all life. It would be insanely hard to pinpoint and it would traverse the entire galaxy in weeks if not detected early enough. The Reapers were built to be unknowable, and that's why giving them a motivation was so absurd. If they simply wanted to stop synthetics from being created why do they wait so long? By not having an actual motivation they would get a free pass from criticism. The Reapers should have stayed as the unknowable gods that they have been built up to be for an entire series. Not the weak tools of an AI that couldn't solve its own problems for a billion years because "organics weren't ready."