9087 réponses à ce sujet

[Taboo]

Yes, well if Thomas Shepard jumps into the beam we're going to have a great deal of conflict and not the physical kind.

Jesus. Now that I think about it the nanites make the change based on Shepard.

Was your Shepard something of a no holds barred altruist or something?

Interesting.

[Sisterofshane]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes, well if Thomas Shepard jumps into the beam we're going to have a great deal of conflict and not the physical kind.

LOL

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 22 mai 2012 - 09:15 .

[Taboo]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes, well if Thomas Shepard jumps into the beam we're going to have a great deal of conflict and not the physical kind.

LOL

I meant internal conflict.........INTERNAL.

A man of many prinicples he was. A Paragon, but also a realist.

Conflicted.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 22 mai 2012 - 09:17 .

[Sisterofshane]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes, well if Thomas Shepard jumps into the beam we're going to have a great deal of conflict and not the physical kind.

LOL

I meant internal conflict.........INTERNAL.

A man of many prinicples he was. A Paragon, but also a realist.

Conflicted.

LOL, I know, and suddenly I got this image in my head of an entire EMO galaxy...that made me think of Ohei's Emo Legion.

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 22 mai 2012 - 09:19 .

[dreman9999]

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

What we would like to see is that, barring the morality of the decision (because in the end, this is and always has been left up to the player), how can we take Synthesis and help it to fit within the Narrative - because whether we like to admit it or not, Synthesis has become the red-headed stepchild of ME3, and mostly because of it's lack of explanation and context. 

I think the idea has been soured for quite a few people. The lack of information makes people suspicious. I'll still never choose it but I'd like to see what Bioware can do with it.

What would be really cool is to see what results they have from the feedback that is sent out from the feedback option online.

The same goes here, and I think that Ieldra is on to something with her explanations - I can "handwave" a little bit of strict science if the ending is explained well enough (like FTL and whatnot).

But what of the possible cons of this. This is a raceof machines that can manipulate the limbic system....Why should anyone trust them in upgrading and changing anything in our bodies.

NO ending is without cons - and no one is saying that you need to make a choice that you don't morally agree with.

However, to answer your question, I don't believe that the Reapers are responsible for Synthesis - rather that the Crucible makes it possible, and it is a change propagated by commander Shepard himself, almost into his own image.  Sort of like Legion disseminating himself into the collective to give all of the Geth the upgrade.

It not a question of who makesit possible.Based on what the starchild says,it's clear that if the reapers could of done it before ...They would...It's a question of how it's used and who uses it. I matter not who build it. All the choices have cons but only one has a cons for the reapers....Destroy. All the other choice aretoo vague to get a absolute meaning of what they mean but it still the star child that appiles them...It basicly means your letting the star child access crucibles systems. You giving the choiceto him in the other 2.
It's more of an issues of if you can trust him.

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
Yes, well if Thomas Shepard jumps into the beam we're going to have a great deal of conflict and not the physical kind.

Jesus. Now that I think about it the nanites make the change based on Shepard.

Was your Shepard something of a no holds barred altruist or something?

Interesting.

Altruist? in everyday life, no. But yes, he wouldn't sacrifice what he thought was the good of the galaxy for his own survival, even if it hurt like hell to break his promise to Miranda, and he considers having made peace between the quarians and the geth his finest achievement. More to come later......must go.

[Sisterofshane]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
NO ending is without cons - and no one is saying that you need to make a choice that you don't morally agree with.

However, to answer your question, I don't believe that the Reapers are responsible for Synthesis - rather that the Crucible makes it possible, and it is a change propagated by commander Shepard himself, almost into his own image.  Sort of like Legion disseminating himself into the collective to give all of the Geth the upgrade.

It not a question of who makesit possible.Based on what the starchild says,it's clear that if the reapers could of done it before ...They would...It's a question of how it's used and who uses it. I matter not who build it. All the choices have cons but only one has a cons for the reapers....Destroy. All the other choice aretoo vague to get a absolute meaning of what they mean but it still the star child that appiles them...It basicly means your letting the star child access crucibles systems. You giving the choiceto him in the other 2.
It's more of an issues of if you can trust him.

If you are taking the ending at face value, there is no reason NOT to trust that the Catalyst is telling you the truth
(even in a manipulative sort of way).

But, back as this applies to the OP, if the only reason no one would ever consider the other options because they are too "vague" to be taken seriously, then we are giving the writers a chance to improve that by giving us the information and the context we need to undersand it better.

For example, with your issue above that the Reapers are "changing" every organic through Synthesis - this is not the case. Every being in the galaxy, including the Reapers, are affected by the Beam.  This would not be an issue if the information had been presented a little bit better, which is presumably what the Dev's are aiming to do with the extended cut.

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 22 mai 2012 - 09:28 .

[dreman9999]

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...
NO ending is without cons - and no one is saying that you need to make a choice that you don't morally agree with.

However, to answer your question, I don't believe that the Reapers are responsible for Synthesis - rather that the Crucible makes it possible, and it is a change propagated by commander Shepard himself, almost into his own image.  Sort of like Legion disseminating himself into the collective to give all of the Geth the upgrade.

It not a question of who makesit possible.Based on what the starchild says,it's clear that if the reapers could of done it before ...They would...It's a question of how it's used and who uses it. I matter not who build it. All the choices have cons but only one has a cons for the reapers....Destroy. All the other choice aretoo vague to get a absolute meaning of what they mean but it still the star child that appiles them...It basicly means your letting the star child access crucibles systems. You giving the choiceto him in the other 2.
It's more of an issues of if you can trust him.

If you are taking the ending at face value, there is no reason NOT to trust that the Catalyst is telling you the truth
(even in a manipulative sort of way).

But, back as this applies to the OP, if the only reason no one would ever consider the other options because they are too "vague" to be taken seriously, then we are giving the writers a chance to improve that by giving us the information and the context we need to undersand it better.

For example, with your issue above that the Reapers are "changing" every organic through Synthesis - this is not the case. Every being in the galaxy, including the Reapers, are affected by the Beam.  This would not be an issue if the information had been presented a little bit better, which is presumably what the Dev's are aiming to do with the extended cut.

I don't really. I'm argueing based on if the endings are real. I really don't think they are. I trust nothing I see after being cut down by harbinger. I just arguing based on how the op is presenting it. Going in say it not real is not going to proveanything in the argument.

But on the point hat every being is effected by it,even the reapers.....it would not matter if the reapers are affected as well, they already are an organic synthetic synthesis. The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

[Taboo]

At the end of day, I would simply blow it all up.

You see, I find the idea of tampering with such forces beyond my ability as a human being. I will not change the order of the Universe. Destroy resets everything to zero. An awful price, but it's the only thing I ever thought the ending would contain.

I still haven't figured out what the hell I'm supposed to do in Control. So I control the Reapers. Big deal. What do I do with them? It seems at this point all that I'm going to have happen is the loss of my body and telling the Reapers to go away.

LOLWUT?

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 22 mai 2012 - 09:44 .

[Sisterofshane]

dreman9999 wrote...

The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

I would question how much this is so - every single Reaper that has ever been made BLINDLY follows the Catalyst's doctrine.  I think that what changes about them is that they gain a chance to act under their own free will, as opposed to being "slaves" to whatever programming they are initially indoctrinated with.

[PsyrenY]

dreman9999 wrote...

But on the point hat every being is effected by it,even the reapers.....it would not matter if the reapers are affected as well, they already are an organic synthetic synthesis. The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

Reapers are hybrids, but they are not perfect hybrids. The organic side of them is very obviously subservient to the machine side. How else could you explain the trillions of organics that were slaughtered to create them, being so unanimously willing to cooperate with the Catalyst and visit that fate on trillions more? They cannot be doing this willingly.

My belief therefore is that Synthesis affects the Reapers, by removing the dominance of the machine over the organic within them. By equalizing their organic and machine sides, you free them from the Catalyst's control, and they stop inflicting on others the same horrors that were inflicted on them millennia before.

[Sisterofshane]

Taboo-XX wrote...

At the end of day, I would simply blow it all up.

You see, I find the idea of tampering with such forces beyond my ability as a human being. I will not change the order of the Universe. Destroy resets everything to zero. An awful price, but it's the only thing I ever thought the ending would contain.

I still haven't figured out what the hell I'm supposed to do in Control. So I control the Reapers. Big deal. What do I do with them? It seems at this point all that I'm going to have happen is the loss of my body and telling the Reapers to go away.

LOLWUT?

I think a lot of it has to do with seeing some sort of value to the reapers themselves.

Bioware however, has done a terrible job over the trilogy with trying to portray them as sympathetic villains.  I don't believe a lot of people would care to save them.

[dreman9999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

But on the point hat every being is effected by it,even the reapers.....it would not matter if the reapers are affected as well, they already are an organic synthetic synthesis. The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

Reapers are hybrids, but they are not perfect hybrids. The organic side of them is very obviously subservient to the machine side. How else could you explain the trillions of organics that were slaughtered to create them, being so unanimously willing to cooperate with the Catalyst and visit that fate on trillions more? They cannot be doing this willingly.

My belief therefore is that Synthesis affects the Reapers, by removing the dominance of the machine over the organic within them. By equalizing their organic and machine sides, you free them from the Catalyst's control, and they stop inflicting on others the same horrors that were inflicted on them millennia before.

We even know how synthesis works or how it's don't...We can't say reapers are not it. Synthesis in it's self is a hybrid.

[dreman9999]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

At the end of day, I would simply blow it all up.

You see, I find the idea of tampering with such forces beyond my ability as a human being. I will not change the order of the Universe. Destroy resets everything to zero. An awful price, but it's the only thing I ever thought the ending would contain.

I still haven't figured out what the hell I'm supposed to do in Control. So I control the Reapers. Big deal. What do I do with them? It seems at this point all that I'm going to have happen is the loss of my body and telling the Reapers to go away.

LOLWUT?

I think a lot of it has to do with seeing some sort of value to the reapers themselves.

Bioware however, has done a terrible job over the trilogy with trying to portray them as sympathetic villains.  I don't believe a lot of people would care to save them.

I don't think they ever want the reaper to be the sympathetic villains. The events ofthe game and lore shows they arenot...Even the last scene with TIM. This makes me wonder why anyone would be for synthesis.

[YNation913]

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

I would question how much this is so - every single Reaper that has ever been made BLINDLY follows the Catalyst's doctrine.  I think that what changes about them is that they gain a chance to act under their own free will, as opposed to being "slaves" to whatever programming they are initially indoctrinated with.

Do the Reapers even know about the catalyst? They seemed to think they were all independent...

[PsyrenY]

dreman9999 wrote...

We even know how synthesis works or how it's don't...We can't say reapers are not it. Synthesis in it's self is a hybrid.

Yet you are claiming that Reapers are the end result of synthesis despite knowing nothing about it yourself. We can all speculate.

But the evidence is more in my favor. If the green beam is affecting the Reapers, clearly it is changing them too. Therefore, logically - whatever they are, synthesis produces something different. QED.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...
But the evidence is more in my favor. If the green beam is affecting the Reapers, clearly it is changing them too. Therefore, logically - whatever they are, synthesis produces something different. QED.

According to the OP, the process is reversible.

[dreman9999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

We even know how synthesis works or how it's don't...We can't say reapers are not it. Synthesis in it's self is a hybrid.

Yet you are claiming that Reapers are the end result of synthesis despite knowing nothing about it yourself. We can all speculate.

But the evidence is more in my favor. If the green beam is affecting the Reapers, clearly it is changing them too. Therefore, logically - whatever they are, synthesis produces something different. QED.

Reaper combine organics and tech...How is that not synthesis? 

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

According to the OP, the process is reversible.

Did anything I said contradict that?

And why would you reverse it globally? I assumed that reversing it would only be for the primitive Amish-types that don't want leet nanotech.

dreman9999 wrote...
Reaper combine organics and tech...How is that not synthesis? 

For starters, Reapers aren't created using a Crucible.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 22 mai 2012 - 10:24 .

[dreman9999]

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

I would question how much this is so - every single Reaper that has ever been made BLINDLY follows the Catalyst's doctrine.  I think that what changes about them is that they gain a chance to act under their own free will, as opposed to being "slaves" to whatever programming they are initially indoctrinated with.

That's true...But ask your self this...What's the starchild's doctrine...That organic life need to be turn to reapers or does organic life need to be changed?

Most people thing the problem it trying to solve is synthetic technological singularity, but they missthe question to why that is a threat to organic life. An formof argression is based on need...Andit been prove in ME2 and ME3 that synthetics have different needs then organics and those needs don'tconflict with one another being that the geth want to beleft alone.. You have to ask what cuses the conflict the starchild fears will happen and whyhe is so focus on organics then synthetics. He went out of his way just to havea way to control organics limpic system, but have the reapers use diplomancy with the geth.

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 mai 2012 - 10:42 .

[dreman9999]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

According to the OP, the process is reversible.

Did anything I said contradict that?

And why would you reverse it globally? I assumed that reversing it would only be for the primitive Amish-types that don't want leet nanotech.

dreman9999 wrote...
Reaper combine organics and tech...How is that not synthesis? 

For starters, Reapers aren't created using a Crucible.

My point is the star child found faster way then havesting with the crucible.

Modifié par dreman9999, 22 mai 2012 - 11:12 .

[Uncle Jo]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

I would question how much this is so - every single Reaper that has ever been made BLINDLY follows the Catalyst's doctrine.  I think that what changes about them is that they gain a chance to act under their own free will, as opposed to being "slaves" to whatever programming they are initially indoctrinated with.

That's true...But ask your self this...What's the starchild's doctrine...That organic life need to be turn to reapers or does organic life need to be changed?

Most people thing the problem it trying to solve is synthetic technological singularity, but they missthe question to why that is a threat to organic life. An formof argression is based on need...Andit been prove in ME2 and ME3 that synthetics have different needs then organics and those needs don'tconflict with one another being that the geth want to beleft alone.. You have to ask what cuses the conflict the starchild fears will happen and whyhe is so focus on organics then synthetics. He went out of his way just to havea way to control organics limpic system, but have the reapers use diplomancy with the geth.

This. I've said it before, the Reapers are fond of preemptive genocides. They kill/harvest you to prevent an hypothetical technological singularity (God it's really hard to speak about the ending taken at face value). 

So I'll do the same : I'll destroy them so they won't be destroyed by another Shep.

Now I repost a question since no one is willing to answer it, especially the OP (I've read your explanation about molecular nanotechnology and all) :

What is the role/purpose of Shep in Synthesis? Why adding his "energy" to the Crucible's (I still laugh about it) is going to make the things better ? Why do the space troll not use any other human?

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 22 mai 2012 - 11:50 .

[Sisterofshane]

dreman9999 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

I would question how much this is so - every single Reaper that has ever been made BLINDLY follows the Catalyst's doctrine.  I think that what changes about them is that they gain a chance to act under their own free will, as opposed to being "slaves" to whatever programming they are initially indoctrinated with.

That's true...But ask your self this...What's the starchild's doctrine...That organic life need to be turn to reapers or does organic life need to be changed?

Most people thing the problem it trying to solve is synthetic technological singularity, but they missthe question to why that is a threat to organic life. An formof argression is based on need...Andit been prove in ME2 and ME3 that synthetics have different needs then organics and those needs don'tconflict with one another being that the geth want to beleft alone.. You have to ask what cuses the conflict the starchild fears will happen and whyhe is so focus on organics then synthetics. He went out of his way just to havea way to control organics limpic system, but have the reapers use diplomancy with the geth.

I believe that the solution the catalyst came up with was to prevent organics from creating AI's by "harvesting" them before they got the chance.  That's the reason for the focus on organics - everything else happens to be a means to an end - making the process faster and easier (hence the "diplomacy" with the Geth - it uses them as tools, then discards them, leaving the galaxy as a "blank slate" for the next species to rise).  The same thing with indoctrination - being in control of key organics just makes the process easier.

Personally, I believe that the only thing it cares about - even up until Shepard makes the final choice - is avoiding or getting rid of the threat of a technological singularity.  I believe that it is this singular mindset which causes him to frame the choices in the manner he does (obviously favoring Synthesis, which it believes to be the only solution to it's problem).  If you don't believe in the Singularity, and place no value in the Reapers (as I do not) then in YOUR playthrough you should probably choose destroy (as I did).

[dreman9999]

I'll add on last thing to this. The writer ofthe series have gone out of their way to show that synthetic are aliens to organics to a degree that they have different aggression facts then we do.But they have always shown that organics force conflict with them because synthetics a are not only alien but organics have a natural instincts of conflict with in them. This has been seen with the geth/quarian conflict. Remember, it was the quarians that forced the geth to uprise. What even problem with any organic./synthetic uprising would come from organic nature. This is why the reapers use diplomancy with the geth and use indoctrination on organics. Indoctrination controls the limbic system for organics, where the nature of conflict comes from It can be said that the true way to stop the organic/synthetic is to control the nature of organics. And to keep it stable, organics need to be put is a state that evolved base this nature. That why the starchild turn organics to reapers.This is also to make way for the evolution of future organics....Though synthesis is a faster way to do this because it get everything at once.....The reapers would not be need for harvesting because e they have no need to harvest...They got all the organics and every organic that will be.

[dreman9999]

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

I would question how much this is so - every single Reaper that has ever been made BLINDLY follows the Catalyst's doctrine.  I think that what changes about them is that they gain a chance to act under their own free will, as opposed to being "slaves" to whatever programming they are initially indoctrinated with.

That's true...But ask your self this...What's the starchild's doctrine...That organic life need to be turn to reapers or does organic life need to be changed?

Most people thing the problem it trying to solve is synthetic technological singularity, but they missthe question to why that is a threat to organic life. An formof argression is based on need...Andit been prove in ME2 and ME3 that synthetics have different needs then organics and those needs don'tconflict with one another being that the geth want to beleft alone.. You have to ask what cuses the conflict the starchild fears will happen and whyhe is so focus on organics then synthetics. He went out of his way just to havea way to control organics limpic system, but have the reapers use diplomancy with the geth.

I believe that the solution the catalyst came up with was to prevent organics from creating AI's by "harvesting" them before they got the chance.  That's the reason for the focus on organics - everything else happens to be a means to an end - making the process faster and easier (hence the "diplomacy" with the Geth - it uses them as tools, then discards them, leaving the galaxy as a "blank slate" for the next species to rise).  The same thing with indoctrination - being in control of key organics just makes the process easier.

Personally, I believe that the only thing it cares about - even up until Shepard makes the final choice - is avoiding or getting rid of the threat of a technological singularity.  I believe that it is this singular mindset which causes him to frame the choices in the manner he does (obviously favoring Synthesis, which it believes to be the only solution to it's problem).  If you don't believe in the Singularity, and place no value in the Reapers (as I do not) then in YOUR playthrough you should probably choose destroy (as I did).

But synthesis as itis doesn't solves this unless their is more to it. Synthesis people can still make synthetics.
But about the singularity...Why would anyone fear it?