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[BrookerT]

Leviathan's shaping up to be one of ME's best DLCs, I really can't wait to talk to him. I honestly believe he will provide heavy exposition for all three choices, not just synthesis or control. And maybe allude to Organics Vs Synthetics a bit more

[Seival]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Seival wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

It also is unnerving news for controllers? If one reaper can break off catalyst's control then that's... problematic O_O

How many squadmates left Shepard's team because they don't want to follow her orders? Zero. I don't think it will be any different in case of Catalist-Shepard

But this is not the main point. The main point is that Leviathan is just just something exceptional. Maybe it's some prototype, which has its own mind from the beginning? Or maybe it's the only survived victim of some Synthesis attempts the original Catalist told us about?

He's still attempting Synthesis with every husk he makes.

The only differance is that those forces are controlled.

I don't think creating a hask is the same synthesis mechanics as in the ending. Hasks don't gain their own minds, they are just mindless mobile platforms.

[Taboo]

Seival wrote...

I don't think creating a hask is the same synthesis mechanics as in the ending. Hasks don't gain their own minds, they are just mindless mobile platforms.

That's the point, it's imperfect. The only way to do so is to make it mindless.

By not doing that he made the Leviathan.

But the perfected version can only be achieved with the Crucible. Those are the beings The Catalyst wanted to create, but could not do so.

Synthesis can't be forced remember. 

[Seival]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Seival wrote...

I don't think creating a hask is the same synthesis mechanics as in the ending. Hasks don't gain their own minds, they are just mindless mobile platforms.

That's the point, it's imperfect. The only way to do so is to make it mindless.

By not doing that he made the Leviathan.

But the perfected version can only be achieved with the Crucible. Those are the beings The Catalyst wanted to create, but could not do so.

Synthesis can't be forced remember. 

Hmm... You think Synthesis is the middle-stage between non-harvested and completely-harvested? Interesting point of view.

Modifié par Seival, 04 août 2012 - 08:57 .

[Taboo]

That's what Synthesis is. It's a perfect mix of the two forms of life. Organics no longer fear Synthetics because they are similar and can progress at the same speed.

But that's the only real issue Synthesis solves in the immediate. The Krogans still hate the Salarians guts.

I simply don't believe that changing everyone for a hypothetical issue is worth doing, especially if the change is driven by my own person desire for permanent change and growth. That's for the Galaxy to decide, not me.

I won't allow the same function to be performed by an AI based off of my Shepard's personality either. If the galaxy has a difference of opinion, we may run into trouble.

[Ieldra]

Seival wrote...
Hmm... You think Synthesis is the middle-stage between non-harvested and completely-harvested? Interesting point of view.

No. He thinks harvested creatures are failed results of an imperfect attempt at Synthesis, while the Crucible's Synthesis will use Shepard as a template to create the true Synthesis.

I don't think so. Most harvested creatures are build from physical parts of several individuals, all but normal Husks. There is no similarity at all.

@Taboo:
That's not true. The dividing line between organics and synthetics may vanish in future, says EDI. Synthesis doesn't create "a perfect mix", it only brings organics and synthetics closer to each other.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 août 2012 - 09:45 .

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Seival wrote...
Hmm... You think Synthesis is the middle-stage between non-harvested and completely-harvested? Interesting point of view.

No. He thinks harvested creatures are failed results of an imperfect attempt at Synthesis, while the Crucible's Synthesis will use Shepard as a template to create the true Synthesis.

I don't think so. Most harvested creatures are build from physical parts of several individuals, all but normal Husks. There is no similarity at all.

@Taboo:
That's not true. The dividing line between organics and synthetics may vanish in future, says EDI. Synthesis doesn't create "a perfect mix", it only brings organics and synthetics closer to each other.

Manufacturing barriers between forms of synthesis to make yourself feel better are we?
The fact that some form of husks incorporate more than one species is irrelevant. Also, Collectors, Marauders Husks and Banshees are all purely derived from one species.

[Taboo]

Closer how? How else are you going to solve this issue biologically? It's an inevitable part of Synthesis.

By dividing line, they mean a perfect mix. That's what "synthesis" means.

syn·the·sis (snth-ss)
n. pl. syn·the·ses (-sz)
1.
a. The combining of separate elements or substances to form a coherent whole.
b. The complex whole so formed.
2. Chemistry Formation of a compound from simpler compounds or elements.
3. Philosophy
a. Reasoning from the general to the particular; logical deduction.
b. The combination of thesis and antithesis in the Hegelian dialectical process whereby a new and higher level of truth is produced.

Take a look at the Hegel reference. 

I hear someone on the Bioware staff really likes Georg Hegel.

^ And that's a true story by the way.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 04 août 2012 - 09:55 .

[Ieldra]

Ever since the EC the idea that the Reaper minions and Synthesized people are in some way similar is off the table. I have no idea why people bring that in through the backdoor. Except for the usual suspects of course.

And Taboo, please come back when you're sober or off your usual stuff. What you say makes no sense at all. EDI suggests that there there still a dividing line between organics and synthetics, which is perfectly in line with the description how organics and synthetics are differently affected. It's not a perfect mix. Can we leave this behind now?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 août 2012 - 09:59 .

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ever since the EC the idea that the Reaper minions and Synthesized people are in some way similar is off the table. I have no idea why people bring that in through the backdoor. Except for the usual suspects of course.

They never were the same. Anyone looking at them would be able to tell that.

I'm not sure why this is still an issue.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Ever since the EC the idea that the Reaper minions and Synthesized people are in some way similar is off the table. I have no idea why people bring that in through the backdoor. Except for the usual suspects of course.

Oh really? Explain why it is. The only difference between a husk and a victim of synthesis is autonomous control, and in the end it's just a different form of indoctrination.
I have no idea why people think otherwise. Except for the usual suspects, of course.

Taboo-XX wrote...

They never were the same. Anyone looking at them would be able to tell that.

I'm not sure why this is still an issue.

They are similar in principle, not design. To deny that is to play Reaper-apologist to the extreme.

Modifié par The Angry One, 04 août 2012 - 10:01 .

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Ever since the EC the idea that the Reaper minions and Synthesized people are in some way similar is off the table. I have no idea why people bring that in through the backdoor. Except for the usual suspects of course.

They never were the same. Anyone looking at them would be able to tell that.

I'm not sure why this is still an issue.

Because you suggested it? That husks were somehow the results of a failed Synthesis attempt? Perhaps it would be better to let your ideas settle at least for a few minutes before you post them....

@TAO:
Yeah, yeah, Synthesis is indoctrination and all that. We've had five months of that bull**** and not even the EC made it go away. I've said from day one that all endings were intended to be good endings, the EC has proven me right, and still people have this inexplicable obsession to prove that Synthesis must be bad. Reason is truly the slave of the passions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 août 2012 - 10:07 .

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Ever since the EC the idea that the Reaper minions and Synthesized people are in some way similar is off the table. I have no idea why people bring that in through the backdoor. Except for the usual suspects of course.

They never were the same. Anyone looking at them would be able to tell that.

I'm not sure why this is still an issue.

Because you suggested it? That husks were somehow the results of a failed Synthesis attempt? Perhaps it would be better to let your ideas settle at least for a few minutes before you post them....

No I didn't. The Catalyst has performed a version of Synthesis before and failed. The Reapers use the same method.

A forced Synthesis causes abominations.

Whatever the Crucible does is perform what the Catalyst sees as the best solution, but in a different manner.

The newly Synthesized Vega is NOT made in the same manner as a Husk. The husk benefits from the beam however, regaining whatever was lost in the imperfect process caused by the Reapers.

That's the idea here.

[The Angry One]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yeah, yeah, Synthesis is indoctrination and all that. We've had five months of that bull**** and not even the EC made it go away. I've said from day one that all endings were intended to be good endings, the EC has proven me right, and still people have this inexplicable obsession to prove that Synthesis must be bad. Reason is truly the slave of the passions.

You saw what you wanted and sugarcoated the rest.
I actually didn't regard synthesis as indoctrination until watching the EC. The way EDI and the people in the synthesis ending act is highly suspicious.
Synthesis was already bad by definition, the EC showed just what a paper-thin utopia it is.

[Seival]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Seival wrote...
Hmm... You think Synthesis is the middle-stage between non-harvested and completely-harvested? Interesting point of view.

No. He thinks harvested creatures are failed results of an imperfect attempt at Synthesis, while the Crucible's Synthesis will use Shepard as a template to create the true Synthesis.

I don't think so. Most harvested creatures are build from physical parts of several individuals, all but normal Husks. There is no similarity at all.

Well, I think that creating the harvested never had a goal to create a Synthesis. The only reason for creating the harvested is to gain additional mobile platforms. But I think that the same process mechanic could really be used for some previous Synthesis experiments. Synthesis as a "balanced stance" between regular form and harvested form makes sense.

But, the original Catalist told us those experiments have failed. All test subjects died, or become completely-harvested I suppose. And maybe, the Leviathan is the only survivor who managed to keep the "balanced stance".

So, considering all said above, I think that "balanced stance" needs some kind of very important component to become stable, a component which the original Catalist could not find. And somehow Shepard had that component... Maybe the component is her unusual body? She was dead for some time, and then she was resurrected... I guess, TIM might helped the original Catalist with Synthesis without even knowing about that... Interesting.



...But this is just my theory, nothing more.

[Seival]

I posted some of my recent thoughts on The Reapers in Control support thread. I think you also might find them interesting:

...I have some interesting thoughts about The Reapers. I believe they can overcome EVERYTHING even their own death. The more advanced you are technologically, the easier it will be to harvest you (remember Protheans?) If you Control them, they continue existing, but become guided by your own Catalyst with its own thoughts on how to protect lesser races. If you Destroy them, they become a "ground" for Galactic Civilization to grow on, which will only lead to the Reapers' resurrection eventually. If you Synthesise, then they literally start to live inside each living being, balancing differences between organics and synthetics. Either way - The Reapers will continue to be "a solution". And it's up to you, what exactly this solution will be: Guarding, or Dictating, or Balancing, or Harvesting.

...Also some interesting thoughts. The Reapers are not just "advanced warships and hasks". The Reapers are Nano-Tech, which organize the surrounding materials to have specific half-organic-half-synthetic forms. Nano-Tech, which has one collective mind - The Catalyst. Living, thinking being consisting of trillions of microscopical formations, mixed with harvested material, and shaped in forms of Warships and Hasks... I think it's a good basis for a new story in ME Universe

Modifié par Seival, 05 août 2012 - 11:43 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

You know we should create the unified Pro-ending thread, where all the different choicists can discuss at a common place

[Seival]

pirate1802 wrote...

You know we should create the unified Pro-ending thread, where all the different choicists can discuss at a common place

I had the same thought actually

I think I will create it, but I need to prepare.

[DirtyPhoenix]

The Angry One wrote...
The way EDI and the people in the synthesis ending act is highly suspicious.

Its very much open to how you interpret it. You see it as indoctrination attempt, there's a simple solution to it; don't pick synthesis.

@Seival, do it. Combine yours and Ieldra2's OPs in one hugeass post and you're good to go. All this hate sometimes makes me guilty I was able to enjoy Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par pirate1802, 05 août 2012 - 01:36 .

[Taboo]

The madness that thread will create...

The debates...

Exciting.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 05 août 2012 - 01:47 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Taboo-XX wrote...

The madness that thread will create...

The debates...

Exciting.

Yes it would be exciting. debating with anyone is fun as long as they are reasonable and not the "ending sux" types. There's nothing to debate with them, in all fairness.

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...
@Seival, do it. Combine yours and Ieldra2's OPs in one hugeass post and you're good to go. All this hate sometimes makes me guilty I was able to enjoy Mass Effect 3.

If I may point everyone who's interested to the Pro-ending compendium thread.

BTW, combining my OP with anyone else's won't work. I'm already at the size limit of 64k, and that after having deleted some of my stuff to include SilentMobius' Synthesis interpretation.

[Seival]

Ieldra2 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
@Seival, do it. Combine yours and Ieldra2's OPs in one hugeass post and you're good to go. All this hate sometimes makes me guilty I was able to enjoy Mass Effect 3.

If I may point everyone who's interested to the Pro-ending compendium thread.

BTW, combining my OP with anyone else's won't work. I'm already at the size limit of 64k, and that after having deleted some of my stuff to include SilentMobius' Synthesis interpretation.

Well, posting another "wall of text and links", which most people will not even try to read from beginning to the end isn't a good idea indeed. I think I should create something simple and still positive... I have some ideas about that.

[DirtyPhoenix]

well then, something simpler; a paragraph worth of exposition from you two, and maybe Taboo for destroy. Maybe you three post your posts in quick succession so they appear linearly.
But that'll require careful teamwork!

[saracen16]

The Angry One wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yeah, yeah, Synthesis is indoctrination and all that. We've had five months of that bull**** and not even the EC made it go away. I've said from day one that all endings were intended to be good endings, the EC has proven me right, and still people have this inexplicable obsession to prove that Synthesis must be bad. Reason is truly the slave of the passions.

You saw what you wanted and sugarcoated the rest.
I actually didn't regard synthesis as indoctrination until watching the EC. The way EDI and the people in the synthesis ending act is highly suspicious.
Synthesis was already bad by definition, the EC showed just what a paper-thin utopia it is.

At least lives are saved and the Reapers are stopped in their tracks. You're not going to argue that the cycle continued with synthesis now, are you, TAO?