9087 réponses à ce sujet

[kookie28]

Uncle Jo wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

What's so great about biological purity?

You would sacrifice human advancement for diseases and viruses that kill your loved ones because it would make you different than you are now?

Maybe you're the monster.

There is difference between human advancement and curing diseases and messing with all beings of the galaxy without their consent.
If you're unable to understand this, you're indeed a monster. And yes, it has something to do with ethics and moral. It's exactly what makes us... human.

Morals make us human?

Morality is entirely subjective.  You may say that abortion is never acceptable in any situation based on your morality.  I may say that if the baby is going to be born with painful defects that it should be spared the pain and be aborted.

[Sisterofshane]

Uncle Jo wrote...
This. I've said it before, the Reapers are fond of preemptive genocides. They kill/harvest you to prevent an hypothetical technological singularity (God it's really hard to speak about the ending taken at face value). 

So I'll do the same : I'll destroy them so they won't be destroyed by another Shep.

Now I repost a question since no one is willing to answer it, especially the OP (I've read your explanation about molecular nanotechnology and all) :

What is the role/purpose of Shep in Synthesis? Why adding his "energy" to the Crucible's (I still laugh about it) is going to make the things better ? Why do the space troll do not use any other human?

It's probably as much attributed to opportunity as it is to cause.  We all like to say that Shepard would be interchangeable with anyone else at the end, but this is not necessarily so - as far as we know, Synthesis may only have presented itself as a viable option because Shepard was present.  If the organic had been anderson, for example, the Catalyst may not have even had the option of Synthesis (just as when EMS is lower, the Crucible is not properly built for Synthesis).

As for the specifics (and how the catalyst diminshes them to, and I hate this phrase Space Magic) we have to remember that this is a being that is capable of liqeufiying a body, and yet still retain the functions of the brain of said body, and those functions do not diminish, even after millions of years.  It is so hard to imagine that the Citadel (which presumably is capable of the above process of Reaper-fiying that I mentioned) would also be capable of disseminating an individual and applying a change to other individuals when used in tandem with the Crucible?

[Taboo]

Good and Evil are subjective and do not exist in nature. A bear is not evil when it kills you because you got close to it's cubs.

However, as a human you have sentience and should make appropriate decisions in turn. Normal human behavior is to coexist. I consider that to be "Good". Any violation of such and subjugation as "Bad".

[Sisterofshane]

kookie28 wrote...

Uncle Jo wrote...

kookie28 wrote...

What's so great about biological purity?

You would sacrifice human advancement for diseases and viruses that kill your loved ones because it would make you different than you are now?

Maybe you're the monster.

There is difference between human advancement and curing diseases and messing with all beings of the galaxy without their consent.
If you're unable to understand this, you're indeed a monster. And yes, it has something to do with ethics and moral. It's exactly what makes us... human.

Morals make us human?

Morality is entirely subjective.  You may say that abortion is never acceptable in any situation based on your morality.  I may say that if the baby is going to be born with painful defects that it should be spared the pain and be aborted.

One thing I will say is that you can't really "scale" morality.  In other words, if you think that it is okay to do something to an individual without their consent (such as vaccinating your child), then there is no reason that it shouldn't be okay to do so to groups of individuals.

[Taboo]

Vaccination saves lives, that much has been proven. It does not cause autism.

However, it is not my decision to make a parent vaccinate their child against the mumps.

That is their right.

[Uncle Jo]

Sisterofshane wrote...


I believe that the solution the catalyst came up with was to prevent organics from creating AI's by "harvesting" them before they got the chance.  That's the reason for the focus on organics - everything else happens to be a means to an end - making the process faster and easier (hence the "diplomacy" with the Geth - it uses them as tools, then discards them, leaving the galaxy as a "blank slate" for the next species to rise).  The same thing with indoctrination - being in control of key organics just makes the process easier.

*snip*

That's another point. Why harvest them? Why not simply wipe out the most advanced races?

Because the Reapers don't give a damn about protecting the organics. Since they're partly organic, they use the organics and eventually their technology to "enhance" themselves... Remember the Human proto-reaper?

Also the quotes of our Friend Harbinger:

- Quarian: considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.
- Drell: useless, insufficient numbers.
- Asari: reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.
- Salarians: insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.
- Geth: an annoyance, limited utility.
- Krogans: sterilised race, potential wasted.
- Turians: you are considered...too primitive.

Now the humans:

- viable possibility, impressive genetic malleability.
- viable possibility, impressive technical potential.
- viable possibility, aggression factor useful if controlled.
- viable possibility, if emotional drives are subjugated
- viable possibility, great biotic potential.

Still believe the technological singularity c**p ?

The Reapers are in fact targeting one race or (maybe more) pro cycle for their own interest, and wipe out/huskify the rest, to prevent them to tell the truth to the next races. No witness, no crime.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 22 mai 2012 - 11:49 .

[Sisterofshane]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Vaccination saves lives, that much has been proven. It does not cause autism.

However, it is not my decision to make a parent vaccinate their child against the mumps.

That is their right.

Which is all fine and dandy, but you can't say that it is ok to do something to an individual person, but then baulk at the idea of doing it to the collective (within the same moral dilema).  You've already negated the rights of the individual within your own morality.  It is hypocritical.

The argument of "scale" never really applies in moral arguments is the point that I am trying to make.  You either believe that you have a right to force change, or that you don't.

[YNation913]

- Quarian: considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.
- Drell: useless, insufficient numbers.
- Asari: reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.
- Salarians: insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.
- Geth: an annoyance, limited utility.
- Krogans: sterilised race, potential wasted.
- Turians: you are considered...too primitive.

...Where is this from?

[Uncle Jo]

YNation913 wrote...

- Quarian: considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.
- Drell: useless, insufficient numbers.
- Asari: reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.
- Salarians: insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.
- Geth: an annoyance, limited utility.
- Krogans: sterilised race, potential wasted.
- Turians: you are considered...too primitive.

...Where is this from?

masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Harbinger_%28Collector%29/Battle_Quotes

Never played mass Effect 2 ?

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 22 mai 2012 - 11:47 .

[Taboo]

Sisterofshane wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Vaccination saves lives, that much has been proven. It does not cause autism.

However, it is not my decision to make a parent vaccinate their child against the mumps.

That is their right.

Which is all fine and dandy, but you can't say that it is ok to do something to an individual person, but then baulk at the idea of doing it to the collective (within the same moral dilema).  You've already negated the rights of the individual within your own morality.  It is hypocritical.

The argument of "scale" never really applies in moral arguments is the point that I am trying to make.  You either believe that you have a right to force change, or that you don't.

It is a matter of scale in this instance. I would always choose to affect less than more. Control puts everyone at risk and Synthesis affects everyone.

Disgusting but I will always take the option with less damage before anything else.

If I had to drop the atomic bomb on Japan I would have chosen to do it to a large military outpost. I would kill less and still show stop the war.

Someone is going to lost their rights in this debacle. At least in the case of the Geth they die free. Repugnant, but one I am willing to impose to ensure the safety of everyone else. 

[Sisterofshane]

YNation913 wrote...

- Quarian: considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating.
- Drell: useless, insufficient numbers.
- Asari: reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.
- Salarians: insufficient lifespan, fragile genetic structure.
- Geth: an annoyance, limited utility.
- Krogans: sterilised race, potential wasted.
- Turians: you are considered...too primitive.

...Where is this from?

These are quotes from harbinger (as the collector general) as you are battling them through out ME2 - they spawn randomly, so it's possible that you may never have heard them.

I think it is interesting to note that Harbinger does seem to have a personality and will separate from the Catalyst, as do all of the other Reapers.  It could be that the Reapers focus on the "how" of the process, while the Catalyst focuses on the "why".  It's possible that Harbinger was just sorting the races into viability for becoming a Reaper Dreadnought, as opposed to the destroyers (which are weaker and all feature a similar in design).

[Taboo]

Perhaps it's also possible that Harbinger is not aware of his creator.

Implications.....

[Sisterofshane]

Taboo-XX wrote...
It is a matter of scale in this instance. I would always choose to affect less than more. Control puts everyone at risk and Synthesis affects everyone.

Disgusting but I will always take the option with less damage before anything else.

If I had to drop the atomic bomb on Japan I would have chosen to do it to a large military outpost. I would kill less and still show stop the war.

Someone is going to lost their rights in this debacle. At least in the case of the Geth they die free. Repugnant, but one I am willing to impose to ensure the safety of everyone else. 

In world war II, however, what you are presented with is an either-or type dilemma - either kill SOME of the Japanese, or MORE of the Americans.

You see Synthesis as being a "destructive" force.  Therefore, your dilemma is to either "destroy" all, or destroy "some".  You are right when you are assuming that you are choosing the lesser of two evils, as it fits your morality.

As it fits the Catalyst, however (and maybe some real world dictators), the rights of the individual do not matter., therefore it does not see Synthesis as "destruction".  It has no problem in forcing the change upon the galaxy, because it sees the galaxy as singular.  It is in this matter that scale has no business being brought up.

And I would argue that some Renegade Shepards would care nothing for the individual's rights, if they believed that the change was for the better good.


EDIT : Dad Gum, I suck at formatiing today

Modifié par Sisterofshane, 23 mai 2012 - 12:00 .

[Taboo]

I see it as violation of some of the galaxies residents or all of them.

I'm going to choose the lesser evil.

Control is like a more hubris laden version of Destroy, it removes the Reapers and gives Shepard unprecedented power. No dice.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 23 mai 2012 - 12:03 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Sisterofshane wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

The only thing that would change about them is that they no longer need to be used...They already did what they wanted to do.

I would question how much this is so - every single Reaper that has ever been made BLINDLY follows the Catalyst's doctrine.  I think that what changes about them is that they gain a chance to act under their own free will, as opposed to being "slaves" to whatever programming they are initially indoctrinated with.

That's true...But ask your self this...What's the starchild's doctrine...That organic life need to be turn to reapers or does organic life need to be changed?

Most people thing the problem it trying to solve is synthetic technological singularity, but they missthe question to why that is a threat to organic life. An formof argression is based on need...Andit been prove in ME2 and ME3 that synthetics have different needs then organics and those needs don'tconflict with one another being that the geth want to beleft alone.. You have to ask what cuses the conflict the starchild fears will happen and whyhe is so focus on organics then synthetics. He went out of his way just to havea way to control organics limpic system, but have the reapers use diplomancy with the geth.

I believe that the solution the catalyst came up with was to prevent organics from creating AI's by "harvesting" them before they got the chance.  That's the reason for the focus on organics - everything else happens to be a means to an end - making the process faster and easier (hence the "diplomacy" with the Geth - it uses them as tools, then discards them, leaving the galaxy as a "blank slate" for the next species to rise).  The same thing with indoctrination - being in control of key organics just makes the process easier.

Personally, I believe that the only thing it cares about - even up until Shepard makes the final choice - is avoiding or getting rid of the threat of a technological singularity.  I believe that it is this singular mindset which causes him to frame the choices in the manner he does (obviously favoring Synthesis, which it believes to be the only solution to it's problem).  If you don't believe in the Singularity, and place no value in the Reapers (as I do not) then in YOUR playthrough you should probably choose destroy (as I did).

It's this fear of technological singularity, but the ironic part of this whole thing is that their worst fears don't seem to come to fruition until they interfere like they did with the Zha'til AI. prior to the reaper invasion during the Prothean cycle. It wasn't written, but it wouldn't surprise me that if the writers actually had planned this from the very beginning that notes would indicate a tampering with the Geth as well prior to the Morning War. Sovereign even offered them "true unity" according to Legion.

So the Catalyst has a problem and that is to prevent a technological singularity from occuring. It's programming is written

001  If (highest civ level) >= n
002      harvest civ x
003      if civ level > n-1
004           destroy
005           else ignore
006      else wait 1000 solar yrs
007  goto 001
008  end

Oversimplified, yes. Incorrect? yes. Fail? Yes. Endless loop? yes. Catalysts current hardware insufficient for it to see current solution is futile and in error. Just as poster can't remember how to code anything anymore (been 20 yrs). Crucible adds new hardware to Citadel and allows Catalyst to see problem.

So two solutions offered. 1) let Shepard control reapers. (Ha Ha!! Let's see if you do better!)  Here's real conversation:

Catalyst: You will die; you will lose everything you have.
Shepard: But the reapers will obey me?
Catalyst: Yes. (Just like they've obeyed me for the last billion years you putz. Now you'll have to stop this tech singularity. This will be fun to watch. I'll be eating popcorn.)

2) or lets Shepard give it 1000 mg of Fukitol (Had enough of this ****, but take relays and Geth with me!).

Both solve problem for Catalyst, but not ideal.

But if Crucible upgrade sufficient decides 3) that perhaps singularity not that bad of an outcome if done on galactic scale. Decides to use Shepard as coding model to create tech singularity on galactic scale. Thus with tech singularity reached and spread among all life, no need for cycle. Erase original program.

Problem solved. Now Starchild can finally play Diablo 3.

Poorly explained by writers? Very poorly explained for all choices especially this one. They needed to come up with method that made some sense.

[Uncle Jo]

Sisterofshane wrote...


It's probably as much attributed to opportunity as it is to cause.  We all like to say that Shepard would be interchangeable with anyone else at the end, but this is not necessarily so - as far as we know, Synthesis may only have presented itself as a viable option because Shepard was present.  If the organic had been anderson, for example, the Catalyst may not have even had the option of Synthesis (just as when EMS is lower, the Crucible is not properly built for Synthesis).

As for the specifics (and how the catalyst diminshes them to, and I hate this phrase Space Magic) we have to remember that this is a being that is capable of liqeufiying a body, and yet still retain the functions of the brain of said body, and those functions do not diminish, even after millions of years.  It is so hard to imagine that the Citadel (which presumably is capable of the above process of Reaper-fiying that I mentioned) would also be capable of disseminating an individual and applying a change to other individuals when used in tandem with the Crucible?

Please don't take the sarcasm personally, it's just my way to write. I won't comment the second part, because I find it too far stretched. But how could it be different, since it's about space magic...

So you're telling me that it was Shep just because he just happened to be there ? That if it was Conrad Verner who was passing by there, he'd have been the hero of the Galaxy?

- Catalyst to random guy: Yo man! Wanna be a hero?
- Random guy: Err... depends on... Why?
- Catalyst: Well you know, I and my underlings are actually bored of being the most powerful, unrivaled bad guys in the galaxy and want to surrender. I just don't know how we're gonna do it. Wanna help us? The whole Galaxy will be grateful forever.
- Random Guy: Why me?
-Catalyst: Doesn't matter, you just happened to walk by.
-Random Guy: (...) What do I have to do?
-Catalyst: It's very simple. You have three choices:
1. You can control us and take my place as a new boss (if you're crazy enough, to think you can), but you'll get electrocuted and you'll die.
2. You can destroy us, but you'll get atomised by the explosions. Some friends of yours will die too.
3. You can merge all the black, white, yellow, green, blue and pink people, forcibly turning them into [insert your most convenient term]. For this you just have to jump into that energy beam there and get disintegrated.
-Random Guy: You kidding me? I'll pass.
-Catalyst: No, you can't because otherwise you'll die too... Now you must choose...

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 23 mai 2012 - 12:31 .

[Sisterofshane]

@Uncle Jo, I do believe there should have been an option to refuse to choose, and that it should have culminated in a way different than just a "critical mission failure" screen - we should really be shown the repercussions of our actions. That's a huge problem with ALL of the endings, there really is no discernible consequence between any of them.

BTW, I appreciate sarcasm. I understand sarcasm, and I never take it personally.

[Uncle Jo]

Sisterofshane wrote...

@Uncle Jo, I do believe there should have been an option to refuse to choose, and that it should have culminated in a way different than just a "critical mission failure" screen - we should really be shown the repercussions of our actions. That's a huge problem with ALL of the endings, there really is no discernible consequence between any of them.

BTW, I appreciate sarcasm. I understand sarcasm, and I never take it personally.

I think that the whole ending at face value makes no sense. It's not just because there is no closure. And I refuse to believe that the writers who came up with such beautiful stories like curing the genophage, or the Rannoch arc, were just lazy... They can sc**w up some things but not the ending of their best trilogy... It has to be something else, but I don't want bring it up here, since there are other threads for it...

[Taboo]

With all the writers involved I think we'll see some good things. Closure is what people really need.

The Talimancers will have Tali and so forth.

And Thomas.....

[Jonata]

Taboo-XX wrote...

With all the writers involved I think we'll see some good things. Closure is what people really need.

The Talimancers will have Tali and so forth.

And Thomas.....

You keep saying that the Extended Cut can give closure and give everyone what they want (including reunion with their LIs). But in your Extended Cut support thread (or sort of) you simply estabilished that a different cut  can do wonders... but a different cut cannot add enough scenes to settle things for a LI reunion. 

I do want to believe you, but I do not understand what you exactly mean. Do you believe they're actually "shooting" enough extra scenes to settle a LI reunion?

Modifié par Jonata, 23 mai 2012 - 12:46 .

[Taboo]

Jonata wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

With all the writers involved I think we'll see some good things. Closure is what people really need.

The Talimancers will have Tali and so forth.

And Thomas.....

You keep saying that the Extended Cut can give closure and give everyone what they want (including reunion with their LIs). But in your Extended Cut support thread (or sort of) you simply estabilished that a different cut  can do wonders... but a different cut cannot add enough scenes to settle things for a LI reunion. 

Yes it can! That's what's so cool!

Bioware states that epilouge will be involved as well.

Clarify that Shepard survives and show them reuniting in the epilouge.

No plot changes.

[Jonata]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Jonata wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

With all the writers involved I think we'll see some good things. Closure is what people really need.

The Talimancers will have Tali and so forth.

And Thomas.....

You keep saying that the Extended Cut can give closure and give everyone what they want (including reunion with their LIs). But in your Extended Cut support thread (or sort of) you simply estabilished that a different cut  can do wonders... but a different cut cannot add enough scenes to settle things for a LI reunion. 

Yes it can! That's what's so cool!

Bioware states that epilouge will be involved as well.

Clarify that Shepard survives and show them reuniting in the epilouge.

No plot changes.

Sorry OP if I go off-topic but wouldn't that force people to kill EDI and the Geth in order to reunite with the LIs? That would cast a shadow of selfishness above Shepard's survival, potentially killing the sense of happiness of such a scene...

[Taboo]

Jonata wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Jonata wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

With all the writers involved I think we'll see some good things. Closure is what people really need.

The Talimancers will have Tali and so forth.

And Thomas.....

You keep saying that the Extended Cut can give closure and give everyone what they want (including reunion with their LIs). But in your Extended Cut support thread (or sort of) you simply estabilished that a different cut  can do wonders... but a different cut cannot add enough scenes to settle things for a LI reunion. 

Yes it can! That's what's so cool!

Bioware states that epilouge will be involved as well.

Clarify that Shepard survives and show them reuniting in the epilouge.

No plot changes.

Sorry OP if I go off-topic but wouldn't that force people to kill EDI and the Geth in order to reunite with the LIs? That would cast a shadow of selfishness above Shepard's survival, potentially killing the sense of happiness of such a scene...

You need 5000 EMS to survive.

That's the price.

The other fans will choose Control and Synthesis.

Of course, I am merely speculating.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 23 mai 2012 - 12:52 .

[Jonata]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Jonata wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Jonata wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

With all the writers involved I think we'll see some good things. Closure is what people really need.

The Talimancers will have Tali and so forth.

And Thomas.....

You keep saying that the Extended Cut can give closure and give everyone what they want (including reunion with their LIs). But in your Extended Cut support thread (or sort of) you simply estabilished that a different cut  can do wonders... but a different cut cannot add enough scenes to settle things for a LI reunion. 

Yes it can! That's what's so cool!

Bioware states that epilouge will be involved as well.

Clarify that Shepard survives and show them reuniting in the epilouge.

No plot changes.

Sorry OP if I go off-topic but wouldn't that force people to kill EDI and the Geth in order to reunite with the LIs? That would cast a shadow of selfishness above Shepard's survival, potentially killing the sense of happiness of such a scene...

You need 5000 EMS to survive.

That's the price.

The other fans will choose Control and Synthesis.

Of course, I am merely speculating.

So surviving after any ending thanks to 5000 EMS? That would be really great.

...allright, I'll stop bringing this thread off-topic and start hoping for something like that.

[Taboo]

No, you need 5000 EMS to survive in Destroy.

I can see them making a DA:O thing here. You have to make some dubious choices to survive in that game as well.