9089 réponses à ce sujet

[JedTed]

lillitheris wrote...

Oh, yeah, ‘cause that’s a valid reason. Murder is OK, because Ted Bundy killed more people?

(Not to mention that it actually isn’t worse, even by comparing the numbers of people affected…)

 

It's worse in that the salarians uplifted the krogan way before they were ready.  With Synthesis, my Shepard believes the organics of the galaxy are ready.  I realize some salarians might have thought the same about the krogan however the main reason they did it was to fight the rachni.

lillitheris 

Jedted
I still think the Synthesis wave wouldn't affect any pre-spaceflight civilizations(maybe the Yahg) until they evolve enough on their own.

That’s patently ridiculous even for a Synthesis argument. Sorry. Have you actually tried explaining to yourself how that would even work?

Sometimes a transplant patient's body can reject the new organ, perhaps there may be cases where some races will reject the cybernetic implants.  What i'm suggesting is that those implants won't fully integrate with their DNA they've reached a level where they can join the galactic community.

Synthesis doesn't nessicarily stop all evolution.

[DirtyPhoenix]

HYR 2.0 wrote..

*Tali: You want to upload the Reaper code? That would make the geth as smart as when the Reapers were controlling them.
Legion. But with freewill.

Oh Legion.. poor thing. He showed us the way, how to do it. He will forever be remembered. :'(

Well it's good that you think that, but I still kind of have an issue with this POV. It's assuming what's right and what would be a mercy based on how we look at them, and it will apply to all of them by choosing Destroy, even if some of them may not feel the need to die.

For that reason, I do prefer leaving them alive. If it's too terrible to live with, they can fly themselves into a sun or black hole. I can't imagine being hit by an unstable red wave of energy is going to be a more painless way to go anyway, so they'll be getting what they would have gotten if I Destroy'd.

Those that do not can offer valuable aid/knowledge to our galaxy.

That's how I see the situation as well. After Synthesis the Reapers gain free-will. If they find themselves to be too much of an abomination they can always kill themselves, or if not, then they can help us. I like to leave the decision to them rather than forcing death on each and every one of them.

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 août 2012 - 03:26 .

[JedTed]

Does anyone else foresee the liberated Reapers flying off to some isolated corner of the galaxy where they can live in peace? Of course after they help rebuild the world they destroyed(that should be a common courtesy).

Forcing them to stick around for longer then they're needed would be a violation of their new found freedom. I think a whole planet populated by Reapers would be pretty awesome, they could even have their own private war to see who is the dominate race.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Yep. I headcanon them staying isolated from the galaxy after they are done rebuilding. They'll colonize unsettled worlds maybe. Also, maybe, maybe they'll try to clone back the species they are made of, back into existence but I'm not sure about this. It depends upon how a reaper thinks and what it thinks of itself, which we know nothing about.

Also, I don't think anyone can "force" a giant machine to stick around. xD No one forced them to rebuild, they did that on their own.

[Ieldra]

Every Reaper represents a civilization. I think they'll do different things. Some may fly off to do things incomprehensible to us, some may try to get reincarnated into their old forms, some may end their lives by flying into a star, some may try to end their lives flying into a black hole only to find that it sends them somewhere else, some may stick around for some time.

[Ieldra]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

JedTed wrote...
the salarians did same thing when they uplifted the krogan.

That's kind of the way I see this whole thing too. That they're *uplifting us to their level, without the whole harvesting thing.

I think the thing about being "ready" is being technologically advanced enough, and having the right attitudes. High EMS to unlock synthesis means the Crucible is strong (tech) and there's is unity among species (attitude). So nobody gets left behind, and we're going to be responsible with how we use new tech.

To me, the "forced" part means, you can't just give it to a society that isn't ready for it.

*Tali: You want to upload the Reaper code? That would make the geth as smart as when the Reapers were controlling them.
Legion. But with freewill.

Hmm.....ever since the EC came out, I thought about what "It can't be forced" means, since basically you do force the change. This is an interesting POV, but it still raises the question of how it will affect the pre-spaceflight civlizations and those starfaring civilizations we don't know anything about because they haven't made contact with the relay network yet. I'm probably overthinking it - I'm sure the writers never thought about this - but the galaxy is not one uniform bloc regarding this "readiness".

By the Catalyst's description, organics will find that they can now naturally integrate "synthetic technology". Probably civilizations with no such technology will not notice any change except for some minor cosmetic effects. Still rather frightening, but nothing they shouldn't be able to deal with.  

Regarding the "uplift", no, I don't think Synthesis does that. It gives the tools do that to the civilizations of the galaxy, but that ascension, as EDI says, lies in the future, and it will be reached on our own terms.

[JedTed]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Hmm.....ever since the EC came out, I thought about what "It can't be forced" means, since basically you do force the change. This is an interesting POV, but it still raises the question of how it will affect the pre-spaceflight civlizations and those starfaring civilizations we don't know anything about because they haven't made contact with the relay network yet. I'm probably overthinking it - I'm sure the writers never thought about this - but the galaxy is not one uniform bloc regarding this "readiness".

By the Catalyst's description, organics will find that they can now naturally integrate "synthetic technology". Probably civilizations with no such technology will not notice any change except for some minor cosmetic effects. Still rather frightening, but nothing they shouldn't be able to deal with.

As i said in my earlier post, i don't think pre-spaceflight civs will be affected by Synthesis(atleast not immediatly),  

I don't know if this has been discussed here yet but has anyone thought about why the asari homeworld isn't shown during the EC-Synth ending?  It might not mean anything but that's sort of when i first got the idea that not every race would integrate with Synthesis.

[Jassu1979]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Well it's good that you think that, but I still kind of have an issue with this POV. It's assuming what's right and what would be a mercy based on how we look at them, and it will apply to all of them by choosing Destroy, even if some of them may not feel the need to die.

I don't think that the people who've "ascended" in order to form a reaper are really there any longer. None of them were willing participants in the process, and I doubt any of them would willingly embrace the Reaper Cause if they were truly there.
It's more akin to the process of creating a vampire in the Buffyverse (as described in season 2): the person who's been "turned" is dead. What's left behind is a different entity that shares the deceased person's memory and even some personality traits, but is quite distinct from the individual that was used to create it.
You can see this happening in the "Control" ending. The "Shepard"-AI occasionally thinks of itself as Shepard, for convenience's sake, but it is quite obvious that this is not the same person. It is an AI infused with Shepard's memories and (some) personality traits, but it even acknowledges that the real Shepard is dead and gone.
And the Shepard-AI is a special case as-is, given that it isn't a gestalt fusion of countless forcefully uploaded minds, and free from Reaper Control.

Will the Reapers object to being destroyed? Of course. But it's not as if they're innocent victims. Every single one of them (except for Leviathan, maybe) has been a willing participant in a galactic genocide, and their gestalt minds are NOT identical with the persons they mind-raped in order to be born.

I like the idea that the processed minds will regain consciousness in a way similar to what we see happening with the greybox, though: that would indeed change things significantly, to the point where keeping the Reapers alive is indeed the right thing to do. If they remain the unrepentant murder machines that they were before (and only cease to kill people because the organic species have been sufficiently assimilated to their ideal), however, I see NO way to make peace with them. It'd be a slap in the face of the deceased, basically validating everything the reapers have done.

[DirtyPhoenix]

@Jassu1979, That's the thing. I agree with you that if the reapers remain the same genocidal machine then this decision is very wrong indeed. I wouldn't be willing to make peace with such entities. But what we see in the EC epilogue, they help the galactic civilization rebuild, there's reason to assume they're not the same once freed from the catalyst's control. the very point to turn the reaper lights green and showing them washed in green wave was to show the player that they've been affected by the synthesis beam too.

Also, yes. the reapers are not the same thing as those civilizations harvested and stored in them. they are merely a storehouse of sorts, of their memories, knowledge and stuff. They are a living species who share the memories of a dead species, not the same thing; but the closest to them as we'll ever get.

Regarding the reapers being willing participants, the catalyst says he controls the reapers, but he also says he is the collective consciousness of the reapers. But given that he is a separate entity, and was there before the reapers, the only way to make sense of his words is to assume he either indoctrinated the reapers, or replaced their consciousness with his. I think indoctrination is more likely. Either way, they don't seem to be willing participants.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Every Reaper represents a civilization. I think they'll do different things. Some may fly off to do things incomprehensible to us, some may try to get reincarnated into their old forms, some may end their lives by flying into a star, some may try to end their lives flying into a black hole only to find that it sends them somewhere else, some may stick around for some time.

Do you think some reapers would like to fight among themselves? I certainly thing so. Harbinger would certainly have some enemies, and some explaining to do.

I somehow love the idea of a planet colonized by reapers. A civilization where each individual is a civilization itself. imagine.

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 août 2012 - 08:28 .

[Jassu1979]

@pirate1802:

I think you touch upon a very important problem here - the fact that the ending(s) is/are only validated by themselves in retrospect.
From an in-game perspective, it makes little to no sense for Shepard to believe anything she's told in the Catalyst's chamber. The Catalyst itself admits to being the supreme representative of the Reapers, and Shepard is perfectly aware of the fact that other people have been tricked into cooperating with the reapers by being told that they'd actually help to achieve a compromise/overcome the reapers. Illusive Man was dead sure that he was only trying to uplift humanity by controlling the Reapers, and Saren was convinced that he was sacrificing millions to save billions.
Given these precedents, I find that the endings are quite implausible if you ignore that they retroactively validate themselves. At the time when the finale occurs, Shepard's behaviour makes no sense at all, even if it turns out that the Catalyst is actually telling the truth.

It's just one of the many issues with the bad writing in the finale, along with contradictory messages: "I control the reapers" vs. "I am a representation of the collective reaper intelligence"; "the catalyst is an energy source for the crucible" vs. "the crucible is essentially an energy source".

[Jassu1979]

pirate1802 wrote...

I somehow love the idea of a planet colonized by reapers. A civilization where each individual is a civilization itself. imagine.

Just imagine the SIZE. Also, what about the fact that the Reapers have the form of starships, and can be manned by other beings? Could such a crew interface with the reaper mind, essentially becoming part of a larger organism (while still retaining their individual minds)? Imagine the synergy! A sentient starship whose crew is akin to our blood cells, except with infinitely more brainpower.

[Hannah Montana]

Synthesis is a terrible ending and you should all feel bad for choosing it.
You call yourselves organics, you're nothing more than misguided fools doing the work of the Reaper creating a galaxy where the enemy can live happy ever after with all your friends.

Indoctrination runs in your veins.

[BrookerT]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Synthesis is a terrible ending and you should all feel bad for choosing it.
You call yourselves organics, you're nothing more than misguided fools doing the work of the Reaper creating a galaxy where the enemy can live happy ever after with all your friends.

Indoctrination runs in your veins.

[ghost9191]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Synthesis is a terrible ending and you should all feel bad for choosing it.
You call yourselves organics, you're nothing more than misguided fools doing the work of the Reaper creating a galaxy where the enemy can live happy ever after with all your friends.

Indoctrination runs in your veins.

find it as more of a dystopia. one that does a number on the whole "come together despite differences" argument

and i don't see how you could choose that with the info you get, but suppose it is easy when you get to kill your shepard and not have to deal with the consequences

yeah you don't get much info on any of the choices, but synthesis is a pretty big leap, not saying it is wrong (well it is to me but it is your choice) but just not something that should be forced on anyone, considering it is something that cannot be forced

Modifié par ghost9191, 17 août 2012 - 09:00 .

[Hannah Montana]

You made the wrong choice, your shepard now belongs to the Reapers.

You lost the game.

[DirtyPhoenix]

@Jassu1979. Exactly. The choices seem much less suspicious when explained by a neutral entity. For example, someone like Victory (The deep-voiced VI from Javik's bunker on Eden prime). It makes me facepalm when I think ALL this mess about the starchild, where the choices come from, do they cor from the catalyst or crucible, almost all of it could have been avoided if the choices would have been explained by someone neutral. Being given the choices by the leader of your enemy is NOT the way to go. I fully agree with you there. From a realistic point of view it is very difficult to trust the catalyst on any choice.

And ofcourse the catalyst is a contradictory mess itself. They had an opportunity to rectify it in the EC, instead they managed to make it more contradictory. Sigh. I like the endings in theory, but not the way in which they are implemented.

[BrookerT]

Hannah Montana wrote...

You made the wrong choice, your shepard now belongs to the Reapers.

You lost the game.

out of interest what did you pick?

[DirtyPhoenix]

Jassu1979 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I somehow love the idea of a planet colonized by reapers. A civilization where each individual is a civilization itself. imagine.

Just imagine the SIZE. Also, what about the fact that the Reapers have the form of starships, and can be manned by other beings? Could such a crew interface with the reaper mind, essentially becoming part of a larger organism (while still retaining their individual minds)? Imagine the synergy! A sentient starship whose crew is akin to our blood cells, except with infinitely more brainpower.

I've always wondered why do reapers have walkways inside them? To transport indoctrinated troops? But then they already have a transport-class reaper for that purpose (ME3 reaper codex entry).
They are a single mind consisting on many minds fused togather, they are capable of operating and sustaining them without outside help, why would they need pathways inside them? Maybe they are the reaper-equivalent of veins? But they look like as if they are made specifically for people to pass through them (ME2 Derelict Reaper mission).
Thoughts? :/

[BrookerT]

pirate1802 wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

I somehow love the idea of a planet colonized by reapers. A civilization where each individual is a civilization itself. imagine.

Just imagine the SIZE. Also, what about the fact that the Reapers have the form of starships, and can be manned by other beings? Could such a crew interface with the reaper mind, essentially becoming part of a larger organism (while still retaining their individual minds)? Imagine the synergy! A sentient starship whose crew is akin to our blood cells, except with infinitely more brainpower.

I've always wondered why do reapers have walkways inside them? To transport indoctrinated troops? But then they already have a transport-class reaper for that purpose (ME3 reaper codex entry).
They are a single mind consisting on many minds fused togather, they are capable of operating and sustaining them without outside help, why would they need pathways inside them? Maybe they are the reaper-equivalent of veins? But they look like as if they are made specifically for people to pass through them (ME2 Derelict Reaper mission).
Thoughts? :/

I believe those were added in by the Cerberus team, they were there for a while

[ghost9191]

pirate1802 wrote...

@Jassu1979. Exactly. The choices seem much less suspicious when explained by a neutral entity. For example, someone like Victory (The deep-voiced VI from Javik's bunker on Eden prime). It makes me facepalm when I think ALL this mess about the starchild, where the choices come from, do they cor from the catalyst or crucible, almost all of it could have been avoided if the choices would have been explained by someone neutral. Being given the choices by the leader of your enemy is NOT the way to go. I fully agree with you there. From a realistic point of view it is very difficult to trust the catalyst on any choice.

And ofcourse the catalyst is a contradictory mess itself. They had an opportunity to rectify it in the EC, instead they managed to make it more contradictory. Sigh. I like the endings in theory, but not the way in which they are implemented.

well just saying, synthesis is the one choice that the catalyst makes or wants, it says that they have tried it in the past but couldn't complete it because it cannot be forced, but with shepard they would be able to achieve it

control and destroy were what the crucible was built for, at first destroy and then over time control. But synthesis was the catalysts idea, says so itself

which is understanding because no one ever thought about merging with machines, i mean as a means to a end, they thought control the reapers or destroy the reapers, but no one ever threw out the idea to merge until tthe catalyst itself

which i think is the big issue, it is what the reapers have wanted and their idea, so ppl feel like hey why would i do that?

[DirtyPhoenix]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Synthesis is a terrible ending and you should all feel bad for choosing it.
You call yourselves organics, you're nothing more than misguided fools doing the work of the Reaper creating a galaxy where the enemy can live happy ever after with all your friends.

Indoctrination runs in your veins.

[Hannah Montana]

BrookerT wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

You made the wrong choice, your shepard now belongs to the Reapers.

You lost the game.

out of interest what did you pick?

Refusal, refusal to play the game. 

[DirtyPhoenix]

ghost9191 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

@Jassu1979. Exactly. The choices seem much less suspicious when explained by a neutral entity. For example, someone like Victory (The deep-voiced VI from Javik's bunker on Eden prime). It makes me facepalm when I think ALL this mess about the starchild, where the choices come from, do they cor from the catalyst or crucible, almost all of it could have been avoided if the choices would have been explained by someone neutral. Being given the choices by the leader of your enemy is NOT the way to go. I fully agree with you there. From a realistic point of view it is very difficult to trust the catalyst on any choice.

And ofcourse the catalyst is a contradictory mess itself. They had an opportunity to rectify it in the EC, instead they managed to make it more contradictory. Sigh. I like the endings in theory, but not the way in which they are implemented.

well just saying, synthesis is the one choice that the catalyst makes or wants, it says that they have tried it in the past but couldn't complete it because it cannot be forced, but with shepard they would be able to achieve it

control and destroy were what the crucible was built for, at first destroy and then over time control. But synthesis was the catalysts idea, says so itself

which is understanding because no one ever thought about merging with machines, i mean as a means to a end, they thought control the reapers or destroy the reapers, but no one ever threw out the idea to merge until tthe catalyst itself

which i think is the big issue, it is what the reapers have wanted and their idea, so ppl feel like hey why would i do that?

Well yes, Synthesis is what the catalyst wants. It says that, and also yes, I can see why it can be a very difficult choice to do what the reapers wanted all along. However, that the catalyst likes synthesis doesn't automatically mean synthesis choice is placed there by it.

Past civilizations have tried merging with machines. The Zha'til did that in Javik's cycle, Cerberus was experimenting with it in ProjectOverlord; I think its possible a cycle learned the reaper's motives and added the synthesis option to the crucible. On the first page you'll find an interesting attempt to explain this PoV if you are interested.

The catalyst has tried it before, but it always failed because it is not something that can be "forced". What "forced" means here I don't understand quite clearly, but It has something to do with the state of the galaxy, its unity? Attaining a particular technological state? Or maybe its the result of the crucible that synthesis can occur successfully? I try not to look at it metaphysically, that Shepard's "essence" (whatever that is) is somehow making sure synthesis succeeds. Maybe we'll learn what being "forced" and being "ready" means in Leviathan?

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 août 2012 - 09:51 .

[JeffZero]

I'd also like to throw it out there that for what it's worth, the Reapers themselves are pretty clearly quite resolved to spread death and destruction for all eternity until they're modified. The Catalyst is their brainchild (no pun intended) and leader, but they're pretty singleminded in their attacks. What the Catalyst wanted all along and what the Reapers have come to represent both in speech and action are two different things, really. So I'm not sure I'd say, "Synthesis is what Sovereign wanted." The Catalyst would force Sovereign to bend the knee, quite instantaneously I'm sure as that's how these things work, but yeah. I don't feel like I'm honoring the Reapers themselves, Catalyst their leader or not.

It's also prime time for me to point out, again, that I feel like there is no ending (save Refuse) in which the Reapers remain as they were before -- and I know that sounds obvious, but I also mean that while in Destroy they're dead as doorknobs, in Control they're hardwired to serve Shepard as guardians of peace and in Synthesis they're suddenly peaceful giants spreading knowledge.

Both instances are such huge divergences from their original MOs that I find it remarkably easy to dictate their old selves dead regardless.