9089 réponses à ce sujet

[JeffZero]

Rewriting the Reapers is punishment enough for me.

[JeffZero]

pirate1802 wrote...
I was a destroyer pre-EC. Back then, control and synthesis really looked like traps. Now, with the epilogues we see that is not the case. The thing that hurts me most about destroy is not the death of the reapers, but the death of my friend (EDI) and allies (Geth). I cannot let them die while there are other options, I'd do that if destroy was the only available option.

My first EC playthrough was a destroy one. And then I saw EDI's smiling face in the flashbacks and it really hit me hard. And I remembered that Legion's "do we deserve death?" line. That was the last time I picked destroy.

But that is not to say destroy is wrong. Like I've said before, there is no right and wrong choice. There is only you and what you see to be the best future of the galaxy. I don't think synthesis is the only right choice, neither is destroy an abomination for the reaons you mentioned. Every ending has similar downsides.

Yep, agreed.

[DirtyPhoenix]

JeffZero wrote...

Rewriting the Reapers is punishment enough for me.

And through that punishment they are freed, saved and redemeed. I find that... beautiful?

[JeffZero]

pirate1802 wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Rewriting the Reapers is punishment enough for me.

And through that punishment they are freed, saved and redemeed. I find that... beautiful?

Ditto.

[Ieldra]

ghost9191 wrote...
was just saying to use those as examples for synthesis would be bad

The zha'til turned bad because of Reaper influence, as Javik will tell you if you take him with you on the geth dreadnought. 

and i always wondered how does synthesis actually affect the reapers, i mean they are already hybrids, organic/synthetic constructs, so why would synthesis make them glow green also, i just mean would it really change them at all if they are already hybrids, more to it i know but still

Well, no, they're not already hybrids. They're constructs, which means they're synthetic and will likely be affected by Synthesis like other synthetics. Alternatively, they're only freed from the Catalyst's control and no longer bound to perpetuate the cycle.

[BrookerT]

Hannah Montana wrote...

Mobius-Silent wrote...

Hannah Montana wrote...

You made the wrong choice, your shepard now belongs to the Reapers.

You lost the game.

Funny, this is the _exact_ opposite of everything Bioware has ever said about the ending. Now who do I think is more accurate... hmmmm....

The company that said there was 16 different endings.
The company that said the saving/destroying Rachni would have big consequences.

Maybe you were been sarcastic. 

They never said there would be sixteen endings, some retakers made it up

They said the prescene of the Rachni would have consequences, and it does. You fight them for half the game, add to your EMS or lower it, cause the death of an old friend, and in the EC they move into Tuchanka if you lie to Wrex/Wreav about curing the Genophage. Seems like a consequence to me.

[ATiBotka]

I have a question. What do you guys think about EDI before, and after Synthesis? Does she had feelings before Synthesis?

[Jassu1979]

ATiBotka wrote...

I have a question. What do you guys think about EDI before, and after Synthesis? Does she had feelings before Synthesis?

Bioware's official version pretty much suggests that EDI was not "properly" alive prior to the synthesis wave. Which, to me, is a HUGE step back from the stance the series took prior to the ending. There are several conversations that validate EDI as a person, and the geth are pretty much established as an equally valid lifeform ("souls" included).
To give the story an "I'm a real boy now"-twist cheapens matters considerably, IMO. Just as it flies in the face of the consistent message of "we are all different, but we derive strength from that".
I'm not saying that synthesis makes everybody the "same" - but in order to work in the way the Catalyst suggests, it NEEDS to eliminate differences - or else it will not prevent the conflict that the Catalyst is so concerned about.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 17 août 2012 - 11:12 .

[ATiBotka]

Jassu1979 wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

I have a question. What do you guys think about EDI before, and after Synthesis? Does she had feelings before Synthesis?

Bioware's official version pretty much suggests that EDI was not "properly" alive prior to the synthesis wave. Which, to me, is a HUGE step back from the stance the series took prior to the ending. There are several conversations that validate EDI as a person, and the geth are pretty much established as an equally valid lifeform ("souls" included).
To give the story an "I'm a real boy now"-twist cheapens matters considerably, IMO. Just as it flies in the face of the consistent message of "we are all different, but we derive strength from that".
I'm not saying that synthesis makes everybody the "same" - but in order to work in the way the Catalyst suggests, it NEEDS to eliminate differences - or else it will not prevent the conflict that the Catalyst is so concerned about.

"Are you afraid?"

She couldn't answer the question. She can't feel fear.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Well, my take is.. she was undergoing an evolution. She had some rudimentary ideas of organic emotions, and was modifying her programming to simulate them, hence her "I feel alive" statement. Note, that if a renegade Shepard answers her each query negatively, she doesn't say the feeling alive line. So, her feeling alive has also to do with her being given free reign on what she wants to do, no restrictions being placed on her, that she is essentially in control of her life and not following someone else's orders.

But at the same time, she has not yet reached the mental state of an organic. Which is why, she thinks of injecting Joker with chemicals to induce proper chemistry (LOL), does not understand why captive humans don't blindly follow reaper's orders to live longer, and does not understand the meaning of fear. These emotions come fully to her after synthesis. Why is why she says "I AM alive."

Pre synthesis, she is in the middle, so to say. She understands emotions more than other synthetics (Legion for example, who has a little chat with her about her "organic" tendencies). But at the same time she is not there yet.

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 août 2012 - 11:31 .

[Jassu1979]

ATiBotka wrote...




"Are you afraid?"

She couldn't answer the question. She can't feel fear.

That's not what I glean from that conversation at all.
Reading between the lines, I see exactly the opposite. She's unwilling to talk about her feelings, but every single one of her questions pretty much confirms that yes, she IS afraid of the prospect of failure, and very concerned for the safety of everyone involved.

[Jassu1979]

pirate1802 wrote...

Well, my take is.. she was undergoing an evolution. She had some rudimentary ideas of organic emotions, and was modifying her programming to simulate them, hence her "I feel alive" statement. Note, that if a renegade Shepard answers her each query negatively, she doesn't say the feeling alive line. So, her feeling alive has also to do with her being given free reign on what she wants to do, no restrictions being placed on her, that she is essentially in control of her life and not following someone else's orders.

But at the same time, she has not yet reached the mental state of an organic. Which is why, she thinks of injecting Joker with chemicals to induce proper chemistry (LOL), does not understand why captive humans don't blindly follow reaper's orders to live longer, and does not understand the meaning of fear. These emotions come fully to her after synthesis. Why is why she says "I AM alive."

Pre synthesis, she is in the middle, so to say. She understands emotions more than other synthetics (Legion for example, who has a little chat with her about her "organic" tendencies). But at the same time she is not there yet.

But then again, doesn't synthesis pretty much invalidate her journey towards understanding? It's like giving Data from Start Trek: TNG an emotion chip. (Yes, I know it happened. And no, it was not a good decision in terms of character development. Data's character was ALL ABOUT a continuous process of increasing understanding.)

[AngryFrozenWater]

Jassu1979 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Well, my take is.. she was undergoing an evolution. She had some rudimentary ideas of organic emotions, and was modifying her programming to simulate them, hence her "I feel alive" statement. Note, that if a renegade Shepard answers her each query negatively, she doesn't say the feeling alive line. So, her feeling alive has also to do with her being given free reign on what she wants to do, no restrictions being placed on her, that she is essentially in control of her life and not following someone else's orders.

But at the same time, she has not yet reached the mental state of an organic. Which is why, she thinks of injecting Joker with chemicals to induce proper chemistry (LOL), does not understand why captive humans don't blindly follow reaper's orders to live longer, and does not understand the meaning of fear. These emotions come fully to her after synthesis. Why is why she says "I AM alive."

Pre synthesis, she is in the middle, so to say. She understands emotions more than other synthetics (Legion for example, who has a little chat with her about her "organic" tendencies). But at the same time she is not there yet.

But then again, doesn't synthesis pretty much invalidate her journey towards understanding? It's like giving Data from Start Trek: TNG an emotion chip. (Yes, I know it happened. And no, it was not a good decision in terms of character development. Data's character was ALL ABOUT a continuous process of increasing understanding.)

Even the geth argued that experiencing the way to achieve their goal was just as important as the goal itself.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Jassu1979 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Well, my take is.. she was undergoing an evolution. She had some rudimentary ideas of organic emotions, and was modifying her programming to simulate them, hence her "I feel alive" statement. Note, that if a renegade Shepard answers her each query negatively, she doesn't say the feeling alive line. So, her feeling alive has also to do with her being given free reign on what she wants to do, no restrictions being placed on her, that she is essentially in control of her life and not following someone else's orders.

But at the same time, she has not yet reached the mental state of an organic. Which is why, she thinks of injecting Joker with chemicals to induce proper chemistry (LOL), does not understand why captive humans don't blindly follow reaper's orders to live longer, and does not understand the meaning of fear. These emotions come fully to her after synthesis. Why is why she says "I AM alive."

Pre synthesis, she is in the middle, so to say. She understands emotions more than other synthetics (Legion for example, who has a little chat with her about her "organic" tendencies). But at the same time she is not there yet.

But then again, doesn't synthesis pretty much invalidate her journey towards understanding? It's like giving Data from Start Trek: TNG an emotion chip. (Yes, I know it happened. And no, it was not a good decision in terms of character development. Data's character was ALL ABOUT a continuous process of increasing understanding.)

I view it as helping her overcome her final hurdle and become what she always wanted to be, that is human. Imagine EDI trying to climb a very high wall. She is trying, maybe she will eventually succeed on her own. Synthesis takes her and puts her beyond the wall. Its a short cut. Whether you want her to struggle and succeed on her own or do you want to help her is a choice that plays into the eventual choice to synthesize or not, and different people would have different views on it. But it certainly doesn't invalidate her journey.

[Ieldra]

Jassu1979 wrote...
But then again, doesn't synthesis pretty much invalidate her journey towards understanding? It's like giving Data from Start Trek: TNG an emotion chip. (Yes, I know it happened. And no, it was not a good decision in terms of character development. Data's character was ALL ABOUT a continuous process of increasing understanding.)

Yes, it does that to some degree, and I do not like it. It's one of two points of contention I have with Synthesis (the other is Shepard's sacrifice). Still, I won't throw the whole idea away just because of that.

@pirate1802:
The invalidation comes exactly because it is a shortcut on a journey she is already on. It is now not an achievement of hers anymore, but something given to her from without. It's no less valuable because of that, but it makes her story less meaningful. Unless you assume she couldn't have overcome that final hurdle without help. You can assume that, but the story hints that it's possible.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 août 2012 - 12:00 .

[AngryFrozenWater]

pirate1802 wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Well, my take is.. she was undergoing an evolution. She had some rudimentary ideas of organic emotions, and was modifying her programming to simulate them, hence her "I feel alive" statement. Note, that if a renegade Shepard answers her each query negatively, she doesn't say the feeling alive line. So, her feeling alive has also to do with her being given free reign on what she wants to do, no restrictions being placed on her, that she is essentially in control of her life and not following someone else's orders.

But at the same time, she has not yet reached the mental state of an organic. Which is why, she thinks of injecting Joker with chemicals to induce proper chemistry (LOL), does not understand why captive humans don't blindly follow reaper's orders to live longer, and does not understand the meaning of fear. These emotions come fully to her after synthesis. Why is why she says "I AM alive."

Pre synthesis, she is in the middle, so to say. She understands emotions more than other synthetics (Legion for example, who has a little chat with her about her "organic" tendencies). But at the same time she is not there yet.

But then again, doesn't synthesis pretty much invalidate her journey towards understanding? It's like giving Data from Start Trek: TNG an emotion chip. (Yes, I know it happened. And no, it was not a good decision in terms of character development. Data's character was ALL ABOUT a continuous process of increasing understanding.)

I view it as helping her overcome her final hurdle and become what she always wanted to be, that is human. Imagine EDI trying to climb a very high wall. She is trying, maybe she will eventually succeed on her own. Synthesis takes her and puts her beyond the wall. Its a short cut. Whether you want her to struggle and succeed on her own or do you want to help her is a choice that plays into the eventual choice to synthesize or not, and different people would have different views on it. But it certainly doesn't invalidate her journey.

That's sugar coating it. It is a forced change. For all involved. Whether they like to become part of the superior race that elitist Shepard seems to favor or not. It is once again a violation of the right of self-determination that haunted all civilizations in the last billion years or so.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 17 août 2012 - 12:01 .

[MattFini]

pirate1802 wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Rewriting the Reapers is punishment enough for me.

And through that punishment they are freed, saved and redemeed. I find that... beautiful?

That is exactly why I can't let them hang around at the end.

All the horrors they put the galazxy through, people's loved ones turned to husks that still survive ... 

It might've ended the synthetics vs. organics "threat" (which I still don't accept as the sudden theme of the trilogy), but I see far too many bizarre and unsettling aftereffects to make it beauitful.  

I had hoped the EC would give me some additional perspective, but it creeped me out even more. 

[Mobius-Silent]

MattFini wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Rewriting the Reapers is punishment enough for me.

And through that punishment they are freed, saved and redemeed. I find that... beautiful?

That is exactly why I can't let them hang around at the end.

All the horrors they put the galazxy through, people's loved ones turned to husks that still survive ... 

It might've ended the synthetics vs. organics "threat" (which I still don't accept as the sudden theme of the trilogy), but I see far too many bizarre and unsettling aftereffects to make it beauitful.  

I had hoped the EC would give me some additional perspective, but it creeped me out even more. 

Husks (et al) retain almost nothing of their previous identity and thus after synthesis they would most likely be a bank slate hybrid. The people used in their creation are dead and gone with a new being in their place. That would be _very_ difficult for post-organics to deal with at first. But after a generation or two I'd expect most people wouldn't care so much as they would have become used to much more unusual synthetic intelligences and have knowledge of much older races that would most likely have been even stranger to us.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 août 2012 - 01:56 .

[ghost9191]

yeah i mean i chose to destroy the heretics in me2, i mean rewriting is the same as killing, they are no longer the person they use to be, and there was too many unknowns with it, they could change back or whatever, no grantees

see it the same way with the reapers, they might seem alright but way too many unknowns , after all they had done and what they were created for they were too much of a risk to allow to continue.

[JeffZero]

Quite so, ghost. Methinks Legion's LM decision says a lot about who we are when we make ME3's endgame decision. Kinda neat.

[Ieldra]

JeffZero wrote...
Quite so, ghost. Methinks Legion's LM decision says a lot about who we are when we make ME3's endgame decision. Kinda neat.

Legion's LM decision is one of the most interesting decisions in ME2. If you rewrite the Heretics, they won't be what they were, but they'll retain the memory of the perspective they had when they were Heretics, that's what Legion says, and it will enrich the geth consensus since "the difference between geth is perspective".

[estebanus]

pirate1802 wrote...

JeffZero wrote...

Rewriting the Reapers is punishment enough for me.

And through that punishment they are freed, saved and redemeed. I find that... beautiful?

Personally, I think that there are somethings that can't be redeemed. I find the reapers to be one of them.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Ieldra2 wrote...
@pirate1802:
The invalidation comes exactly because it is a shortcut on a journey she is already on. It is now not an achievement of hers anymore, but something given to her from without. It's no less valuable because of that, but it makes her story less meaningful. Unless you assume she couldn't have overcome that final hurdle without help. You can assume that, but the story hints that it's possible.

Oh I misunderstood the term, English isn't my native language so such mistaked occur even though I try my best not to. Regardless, my thoughts on this matter:
EDI's evolution without synthesis is certainly possible, in theory. But her mental evolution depends on a willing organic. How I see her evolving:
-She sees an event she doesn't understand
-She asks an organic about it.
-She understands how an organic would react to the situation.
-She modyfies her codes to simulate it.

There maybe a multitude of scenarios she hasn't encountered yet. Shepard is dead now, Joker wouldn't/cannot answer her questions. Even a renegade Shepard who answers her questions about free will and purpose negatively, results in an EDI who doesn't say the I feel alive line. So to continue her Evolution she must find a willing organic. Organics don't trust synthetics enough in ME universe, certainly it'll be very hard to find an individual who would trust her to the extent Shepard and Joker did. Infact I don't we have seen anyone trusting AIs to that extent ever in ME games, apart from those two. Maybe she'll find someone, maybe she wouldn't. So her continued evolution is certainly possible, but probable? I don't know.

So maybe I should modify my analogy. EDI is trying to scale a long wall with a ladder. Now the ladder is broken, she must find another ladder, in a world where ladders are very very rare.

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 août 2012 - 01:38 .

[Jassu1979]

estebanus wrote...
Personally, I think that there are somethings that can't be redeemed. I find the reapers to be one of them.

I'd say there's always a way - but that Synthesis is not one of them. It seems to me that this ending pretty much ignored what they have done, and/or treats them as if they were not really responsible for it. But AIs are not automatons, blindly following their programming. Even EDI and the geth, while vastly inferior to the Reapers, are capable of conscious choice, and thus responsible for their own actions.

[JeffZero]

Jassu,

Your reference of Data and his emotion chip is an interesting point. And I agree with you that it was not very well-handled. Indeed, Data had experienced a wide spectrum of emotions and personal growth in the seasons leading up to "Descent" and the TNG films, anyway; the way the chip was presented as the only real way for him to achieve all that is flawed.

However, I don't feel that that's necessarily true for EDI, just as I don't really buy that it was the case with Data. Yet I still don't really disapprove of Synthesis on this matter overall. It's never explicitly stated in ME3's endings that this was the only way she'd ever develop as far along as she does, although it certainly gives her a... unique boost she'd never have otherwise received. So at least in this case it isn't like the characters are insisting her efforts will always be invalidated without Synthesis.

Now, you want to talk about a Trek instance where the "can I become more human?" sci-fi concept is utter trash? In Seven of Nine's quest to become human again in Voyager, often regarded as a strong highlight in a rather subpar television series, the late-series episode "Human Error" ends with a denouement in which the BS that Seven will never fully succeed in her goals, no matter what, and can only commit to a facade of a human outlook, is established. That feels like a big kick in the head to me, because to some extent it kicks four years of her development in the head.

Modifié par JeffZero, 17 août 2012 - 01:53 .