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[Ranger Jack Walker]

I always thought about it this way:

EDI does have emotions. But she doesn't truly understand them. Same with Legion. Only when you understand you're emotions are truly alive. Synthesis helps achieve that. Remember how Synthesis affects synthetics. It gives them understanding of organics and through it understanding of emotions.

[Mobius-Silent]

pirate1802 wrote...

EDI's evolution without synthesis is certainly possible, in theory. But her mental evolution depends on a willing organic. How I see her evolving:
-She sees an event she doesn't understand
-She asks an organic about it.
-She understands how an organic would react to the situation.
-She modyfies her codes to simulate it.

I disagree, IMHO what you describe is simulating emotional motivations at too high a level. It is approximating a function that needs to be fundimental. My understanding of synthesis is that it the the nature of the new hardware that allows _implicit_ emotional imperitives to shape cognition. Without the tech from synthesis (and a suitable emotional matrix donor) EDI could function among organics with a simulation of emotion but would never actually _feel_ anything.

The emotional equivalent of understanding a subject vs rote learning the answer to all common inputs.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 août 2012 - 02:05 .

[Enthalpy]

Jassu1979 wrote...

estebanus wrote...
Personally, I think that there are somethings that can't be redeemed. I find the reapers to be one of them.

I'd say there's always a way - but that Synthesis is not one of them. It seems to me that this ending pretty much ignored what they have done, and/or treats them as if they were not really responsible for it. But AIs are not automatons, blindly following their programming. Even EDI and the geth, while vastly inferior to the Reapers, are capable of conscious choice, and thus responsible for their own actions.

I think one of the more uncomfortable points of the ending is that the current cycle has no way of enforcing any kind of punishment on Reapers or otherwise holding them accountable. I mean, what can we do? Make Reapers commit to 8326826582446 years of community service? Shoot them to death (when they are more than capable of shooting back)? It comes down to the behaviour of individual Reapers (willingness to stick around and help, suicide, etc.)

And that would be really bad if the majority of Reapers turned out to be violent.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Jassu1979 wrote...

I'd say there's always a way - but that Synthesis is not one of them. It seems to me that this ending pretty much ignored what they have done, and/or treats them as if they were not really responsible for it. But AIs are not automatons, blindly following their programming. Even EDI and the geth, while vastly inferior to the Reapers, are capable of conscious choice, and thus responsible for their own actions.

The reapers were controlled by the catalyst. Its like the Geth when they were controlled by the reapers. Had the reapers acted out of free will I would totally wanted to punish them. Like I want to punish godbrat, but he got what was coming and is probably dead..

[Mobius-Silent]

Jassu1979 wrote...

I think one of the more uncomfortable points of the ending is that the current cycle has no way of enforcing any kind of punishment on Reapers or otherwise holding them accountable. I mean, what can we do? Make Reapers commit to 8326826582446 years of community service? Shoot them to death (when they are more than capable of shooting back)? It comes down to the behaviour of individual Reapers (willingness to stick around and help, suicide, etc.)

And that would be really bad if the majority of Reapers turned out to be violent.

This I absolutely agree with. As much as I think synthesis is a valid choice, I don't see any suggestion that the ex-reaper race would not potentially become violent. We can theorise about it, discuss the lack of the imperitives that the Catalyst instilled and the potential for empathy with their victims, but it's all pretty flimsy, just because they are not longer forced to kill does not mean they will not.

That said, the slides indicate that they don't, at least for now and even if they did after that were were advanced enough to survive to the 10,000 year mark.

Modifié par Mobius-Silent, 17 août 2012 - 02:34 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Also, would like to say that this thread, though attacked by trolls from time to time, yields far more meaningful discussions than other threads, kudos to everyone.

[Jassu1979]

Let's say that the Reapers *do* realize the full scope of what they've done after going through synthesis- either by acquiring organic emotions like EDI, or by having their uploaded consciousnesses regain awareness like Keiji.

What will bearing all of that guilt be like? I can only imagine that it'd be similar to what Buffyverse's Angel goes through after regaining his "soul" via gypsy curse - only a million times worse.
Like Angel, the Reapers were perfectly capable of understanding organic emotions, and using this knowledge to spread unimaginable terror and despair.

Imagine children being torn apart by their huskified parents, screaming with more than just pain.
Imagine billions of sapient beings turned into Reaper goo while they wail in terror.

This is not the sort of guilt you can brush aside, or amend by helping reconstruct some destroyed buildings. The worst damage caused by the war (and the cycle in general) can never be unmade.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Some would probably kill themselves, some would try to atone it by helping us rebuild, some would find out the reaper responsible for its situation and fight it out. Yet others will try to recreate the race it consumed. Different reaper, different method..

Like HYR said a few pages back, we should leave it on them how they want to cope with it. If they commit suicide after that, fair enough.

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 août 2012 - 02:51 .

[Jassu1979]

pirate1802 wrote...
The reapers were controlled by the catalyst. Its like the Geth when they were controlled by the reapers.

I don't believe that. I know that the ending pretty much tries to establish that (and that the EC in turn tries to relativise it again, to a certain degree). But it's simply incongruent with everything we've seen and heard from the Reapers throughout the series - both first-hand and indirectly.

Neither Sovereign nor Harbinger were presented as brainless puppets following an ultimately benevolent (or at least well-meaning but misguided) directive.

It is one of those last-minute retcons that I simply cannot accept, because it cheapens the story significantly.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 17 août 2012 - 02:49 .

[Enthalpy]

Jassu1979 wrote...
This is not the sort of guilt you can brush aside, or amend by helping reconstruct some destroyed buildings. The worst damage caused by the war (and the cycle in general) can never be unmade.

Certainly nothing I can bear. But can Reapers deal with it? I can imagine a (for example) salarian-based Reaper embracing the change and trying to help... and a krogan-based Reaper just going berserk, perhaps over knowing what they cannot recover. Headcanon opportunities abound!

[DirtyPhoenix]

Saren and TIM appeared to be in control of themselves too, until they discovered they were indoctrinated.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Enthalpy wrote...

Certainly nothing I can bear. But can Reapers deal with it? I can imagine a (for example) salarian-based Reaper embracing the change and trying to help... and a krogan-based Reaper just going berserk, perhaps over knowing what they cannot recover. Headcanon opportunities abound!

In my headcanon Harbinger, trying to recreate the original creator race, comes into conflict with two other reapers and ends up killing them. I was trying to write a fanfic but my writing skills failed me..

[Jassu1979]

pirate1802 wrote...

Saren and TIM appeared to be in control of themselves too, until they discovered they were indoctrinated.

Did they? It seems to me that the only people who believed that they were in control were the victims themselves. Everyone else could tell what was happening, provided that they knew about the Reapers and their insidious influence.

Likewise, the Reapers were not indoctrinated: it is a corrosive process that gradually destroys the mind, leaving behind empty shells that lack all initiative.
It's good if you can rationalize this particular plot point, but it is one aspect of the ending that I cannot and will not accept. As far as I'm concerned, the holographic boy never appeared.

He's the Mass Effect equivalent to the midichlorians in Star Wars. Too ill-conceived to be acknowledged.

Modifié par Jassu1979, 17 août 2012 - 03:08 .

[ghost9191]

might hve misread or something but there is a difference between being the reapers being built for a single purpose, and indoctrination. the reapers wouldn't need to be indoctrinated, they were doing what they were programmed for, if they get set free then sure, maybe some will go good or some may continue to do what they were made for

and i don't think the issue would be the reapers needing to deal with what they did but the different species of the galaxy, one day these machines are murdering and turning ppl into abominations and then the next they are friendly and walking around like nothing happened. i don't think it would go over that easy

[Jassu1979]

ghost9191 wrote...

might hve misread or something but there is a difference between being the reapers being built for a single purpose, and indoctrination. the reapers wouldn't need to be indoctrinated, they were doing what they were programmed for, if they get set free then sure, maybe some will go good or some may continue to do what they were made for

A VI does what it is programmed for.
A genuine AI goes beyond that. That's (part of) the reason why the quarians were so horrified when the geth betrayed signs of self-awareness. That's also the reason why the geth did not just stupidly carry on with what they were programmed to do, instead resisting their own destruction without any external changes to their programming.

Now, the Reapers were consistently described as being WAY more advanced minds than any other in the galaxy, synthetic OR organic.
To believe that they are mindless slaves to a program is simply incompatible with the whole premise of who and what the Reapers are.

and i don't think the issue would be the reapers needing to deal with what they did but the different species of the galaxy, one day these machines are murdering and turning ppl into abominations and then the next they are friendly and walking around like nothing happened. i don't think it would go over that easy

How does one of these issues preclude the other? It's not "either the Reapers are reeling with collective guilt, or else the other races look at them with horror". It's BOTH, obviously.

[ghost9191]

@Jassu1979

1. i was just saying that the reapers would not need to be indoctrinated if they are controlled, which if they were built for the sole purpose of "preserving" advanced organic then i would have to assume there were measures in place to ensure they kept doing that

considering that after a couple years of indoctrination the mind is gone, i doubt the reapers would be able to handle millions of years of it. all i really meant from that post, they are more likely being controlled in some way rather then indoctrinated

2. someone in a prior post said that the reapers would probably be able to deal with the guilt. so i said that ppl dealing with what the reapers did would be a bigger issue

Modifié par ghost9191, 17 août 2012 - 03:40 .

[lillitheris]

pirate1802 wrote...


I was a destroyer pre-EC. Back then, control and synthesis really looked like traps. Now, with the epilogues we see that is not the case.

Being able to see into the future is really handy when making decisions.

[ghost9191]

personally synthesis epilogue ruined it even more for me, but i try not to metagame. which is why i go with destroy, way too much risk with the others, without knowing what happens

i do every so often feel like maybe one of the other choices will be better, because the geth live. but i can't bring my self to choose a different one, one because again i don't like metagaming in rpg's and well synthesis and control just feel wrong, more so then destroy

so even with seeing how synthesis turns out and the epilogue , especially with keji , that was just over the top. it seems too peaceful or happy or utopia like. like a dystopia

[Ieldra]

Jassu1979 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
The reapers were controlled by the catalyst. Its like the Geth when they were controlled by the reapers.

I don't believe that. I know that the ending pretty much tries to establish that (and that the EC in turn tries to relativise it again, to a certain degree). But it's simply incongruent with everything we've seen and heard from the Reapers throughout the series - both first-hand and indirectly.

Neither Sovereign nor Harbinger were presented as brainless puppets following an ultimately benevolent (or at least well-meaning but misguided) directive.

It is one of those last-minute retcons that I simply cannot accept, because it cheapens the story significantly.

I think the hypothesis that the Reapers' will was subverted is the best explanation for what happened. I've elaborated on that point in my thread On the nature of the Catalyst and the Reapers, and why Synthesis is an attractive choice.

The Reapers don't need to be brainless puppets in order to act unwittingly at the Catalyst's behest, just like Saren wasn't a brainless puppet of Sovereign until the end. Also, the argument that indoctrination is a destructive process doesn't matter much, because the Reapers are unlike organics.

[DirtyPhoenix]

lillitheris wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...


I was a destroyer pre-EC. Back then, control and synthesis really looked like traps. Now, with the epilogues we see that is not the case.

Being able to see into the future is really handy when making decisions.

Indeed.

[DirtyPhoenix]

pirate1802 wrote...

Did they? It seems to me that the only
people who believed that they were in control were the victims
themselves. Everyone else could tell what was happening, provided that
they knew about the Reapers and their insidious influence.

That's the thing. We knew of reaper indoctrination while fighting/talking to them. But we didn't know of reaper control while talking to the reapers. There's no way of telling who is indoctrinated and who is not if we know nothing about indoctrination. And I was merely giving an example. It might be some other way altogather, by which the child controls the reapers. Maybe we'll know know more about the reaper control process in Leviathan?

ghost9191 wrote...
and i don't think the issue would be the reapers needing to deal with what they did but the different species of the galaxy, one day these machines are murdering and turning ppl into abominations and then the next they are friendly and walking around like nothing happened. i don't think it would go over that easy

Its important to remember here that the epilogues don't take place immediately after the war, like tomorrow. They start from 10-15 years after the war and go on to 200-300 years. I think the devs said this at Comic-Con.

[Taboo]

No, it takes ten to fifteen years to rebuild in all of the endings.

I would say that it takes the full fifteen years for everything to be fixed in a High EMS Destroy.

But the relays are up rather quickly. Which I am VERY grateful they retconned. A dark age would have ****ed everything up.

[zambot]

lillitheris wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...


I was a destroyer pre-EC. Back then, control and synthesis really looked like traps. Now, with the epilogues we see that is not the case.

Being able to see into the future is really handy when making decisions.

I was in the same boat as pirate, but I didn't look into the future.  The 2nd time around (if only life came with as many 2nd chances), I choose synthesis because I was never comfortable with destroying the Geth when alternatives existed.  I decided a leap into the unknown was better this time around.  Even though I still feel synthesis is space magicky, post EC I'm still comfortable with my decision. 

[DirtyPhoenix]

Taboo-XX wrote...

No, it takes ten to fifteen years to rebuild in all of the endings.

I would say that it takes the full fifteen years for everything to be fixed in a High EMS Destroy.

But the relays are up rather quickly. Which I am VERY grateful they retconned. A dark age would have ****ed everything up.

I think there was a quote from the devs a few pages back that said all the epilogues take place some time after the endings and not immediately following it.

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Did they? It seems to me that the only
people who believed that they were in control were the victims
themselves. Everyone else could tell what was happening, provided that
they knew about the Reapers and their insidious influence.

That's the thing. We knew of reaper indoctrination while fighting/talking to them. But we didn't know of reaper control while talking to the reapers. There's no way of telling who is indoctrinated and who is not if we know nothing about indoctrination. And I was merely giving an example. It might be some other way altogather, by which the child controls the reapers. Maybe we'll know know more about the reaper control process in Leviathan?

Remember the Catalyst said "The Citadel is part of me"? That raises the question "what are the other parts?" I've speculated that the Catalyst's hardware is distributed between the Reapers and the Citadel. For the Reapers to be both avatars of civilizations and under the control of the Catalyst, there must be parts of the Reapers which belong to the Catalyst and parts where the conjoined minds of the Reaperized civilizations reside, with the Catalyst being in control through its local hardware and using the conjoined minds to boost its own processing power and knowledge ("I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers"). 

Basically, the Catalyst, after it was created and devised the cycle, upgraded itself by creating new Reapers. The Reapers still have their distinct personalities, probably stemming from a prevalent mindset among their source species, but their will is subverted by the Catalyst. They do what they want and it's what the Catalyst wants because the Catalyst controls what they want. It is what I call "true mind control".