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[Reptilian Rob]

zambot wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Also, the "John" thing was a joke. It's not his/her (fem Shep is "Jane") canon name of course, it's just the name that shows up when you create your first Shep as a placeholder. 

Drat!  I wanted to be excited by something new.  Guess I'll just have to wait for all the analysis about Leviathan next week. 

I can't wait for Leviathan, looks to be LOTSB quality. 

Would be totally awesome if I could cram Garrus and Liara in that Atlas with me...

[L0RD L0KI]

I just don't like green.......

[3DandBeyond]

zambot wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Also, the "John" thing was a joke. It's not his/her (fem Shep is "Jane") canon name of course, it's just the name that shows up when you create your first Shep as a placeholder. 

Drat!  I wanted to be excited by something new.  Guess I'll just have to wait for all the analysis about Leviathan next week. 

The problem with the game and canon anything is that there are canon things that BW worked to try to make not be canon.  Take Liara as the LI-she is basically thrown at you and is the most persistent LI through 3 games.  I'm not saying she is the one everyone should choose, but if you start with anyone but Liara, they really are all but non-existent in ME2.  You have 3 choices in ME1 and only one exists in ME2.  However, so she is not canon, she won't help you achieve the paramour achievement in ME2.  So the next canon idea is cheating on your LI.  It almost forces that.  Want live fish?  Cheat.  A romance in ME2 besides Liara?  Cheat.  And the endings to ME1 and 2 are canon.  The idea of actually fighting reapers in ME3 and winning is impossible-so impossible is canon.

[3DandBeyond]

L0RD L0KI wrote...

I just don't like green.......

It's not easy being green.

[zambot]

3DandBeyond wrote...

zambot wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

Also, the "John" thing was a joke. It's not his/her (fem Shep is "Jane") canon name of course, it's just the name that shows up when you create your first Shep as a placeholder. 

Drat!  I wanted to be excited by something new.  Guess I'll just have to wait for all the analysis about Leviathan next week. 

The problem with the game and canon anything is that there are canon things that BW worked to try to make not be canon.  Take Liara as the LI-she is basically thrown at you and is the most persistent LI through 3 games.  I'm not saying she is the one everyone should choose, but if you start with anyone but Liara, they really are all but non-existent in ME2.  You have 3 choices in ME1 and only one exists in ME2.  However, so she is not canon, she won't help you achieve the paramour achievement in ME2.  So the next canon idea is cheating on your LI.  It almost forces that.  Want live fish?  Cheat.  A romance in ME2 besides Liara?  Cheat.  And the endings to ME1 and 2 are canon.  The idea of actually fighting reapers in ME3 and winning is impossible-so impossible is canon.

When I played through ME2, I felt like Liara just broke up with me.  So I moved on...then accidentally ended back up with her in ME3.  Maybe it's because of that I don't feel so bad jumping into a big beam of light...

[Enthalpy]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...
If enough people died in the Reaper War for genetic bottlenecks to become a problem, every ending is screwed. If not, I believe a population boom is the natural response after a disaster -- in which case, more mutations. 

Not with tech directing the path.

And Evolutionary Singularity fits it all because it isn't just knowledge, it's everything.  After the reapers lay waste to the galaxy, there will be billions if not trillions dead as you say, this means less diversity.  Genetic alteration which is geared toward the kid's idea of perfection would definitely direct it toward this Evolutionary Singularity.  That is why the idea of immortality exists.   It is seen as a part of this final state of perfection.

Ah, back to this again. What players think the Catalyst thinks. Losses due to war occur in every ending. As for what the Catalyst can/cannot and will/will not do with synthesis tech after the war (and whether it still exists at all), that's ripe for headcanon. So by all means, full speed ahead. Goodnight.

[3DandBeyond]

Enthalpy wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...
If enough people died in the Reaper War for genetic bottlenecks to become a problem, every ending is screwed. If not, I believe a population boom is the natural response after a disaster -- in which case, more mutations. 

Not with tech directing the path.

And Evolutionary Singularity fits it all because it isn't just knowledge, it's everything.  After the reapers lay waste to the galaxy, there will be billions if not trillions dead as you say, this means less diversity.  Genetic alteration which is geared toward the kid's idea of perfection would definitely direct it toward this Evolutionary Singularity.  That is why the idea of immortality exists.   It is seen as a part of this final state of perfection.

Ah, back to this again. What players think the Catalyst thinks. Losses due to war occur in every ending. As for what the Catalyst can/cannot and will/will not do with synthesis tech after the war (and whether it still exists at all), that's ripe for headcanon. So by all means, full speed ahead. Goodnight.

I never was talking about the kid controlling people after synthesis.  But the inserted tech would be just like tech he constantly had the reapers seed throughout the galaxy-to create the path for advancement.

[DirtyPhoenix]

I was playing ME2 yesterday, and the thought hit me. Keiji, post-synthesis isn't "alive" as most people and sometimes myself presumed. What has happened is now, post synthesis, Kasumi doesn't need a greybox interface to view Keiji's memories. She can view them, like she viewed them inside a greybox, just about anytime, anywhere, as a VI interface maybe and possibly share it with others; integration with tech leading her to overcome physical limitations (need of a greybox).
Makes sense?

Modifié par pirate1802, 25 août 2012 - 02:49 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Another thing, when the catalyst says "organics seek perfection through technology", he doesn't mean everyone wants to be implanted. What he means that we, organics, have always used tech to overcome our physical limitations. Can't run fast? invent wheel. Can't fly, invent aircraft. Can't swin long enough? Invent ships. This quest has continued from primitive times and continues to this day, both in the real world and MEU. This is what he implies. Again, makes sense?

[Taboo]

He states a lot of things.

I have lived in Montana long enough to tell you that what he says about not being able to coexist is absurd.

You do not wipe things out completely unless you intentionally look for them. I think it's far more reasonable to think that ascended Synthetics would treated us like ants but let us live accordingly. There may be a shoe step here and there but for the most part we'll be left alone.

Anyone who lives in a big city can tell you about rats. You can't get rid of them.

I think it's far more likely a group will be wiped out because they attack a group of Synthetics. But like the Geth they have no reason to continue after the other force is stopped.

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...
Another thing, when the catalyst says "organics seek perfection through technology", he doesn't mean everyone wants to be implanted. What he means that we, organics, have always used tech to overcome our physical limitations. Can't run fast? invent wheel. Can't fly, invent aircraft. Can't swin long enough? Invent ships. This quest has continued from primitive times and continues to this day, both in the real world and MEU. This is what he implies. Again, makes sense?

It is a general statement of that kind, yes. Nonetheless, Synthesis is about acquiring the ability to overcome limitations of one's own hardware by "integrating synthetic technology". I agree that it doesn't mean everyone is implanted. It means everyone can be implanted with lots of stuff easily with no hindrance from the biological system if they so wish. Similar to the way Adam Jensen of DX:HR has a unique genetic structure that prevents his body from rejecting augmentations, maybe going a little further than that.

Keiji's appearance is open to interpretation. If all the information that made up Keiji exists in the greybox, and you have his DNA, then it should be possible to reconstruct him.

[lillitheris]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Legion says they have organic minds conjoined in them,

He doesn’t say that, exactly, actually.

[3DandBeyond]

pirate1802 wrote...

Another thing, when the catalyst says "organics seek perfection through technology", he doesn't mean everyone wants to be implanted. What he means that we, organics, have always used tech to overcome our physical limitations. Can't run fast? invent wheel. Can't fly, invent aircraft. Can't swin long enough? Invent ships. This quest has continued from primitive times and continues to this day, both in the real world and MEU. This is what he implies. Again, makes sense?

It makes sense, except that the tech he's proposing is fully integrated internally even in people that never wanted implants of any kind.  The kind of tech you describe is used as a tool that can be put down or if implanted can be removed.  The kid defines his view of perfection as the ultimate final form of evolution.  The tech he is talking about irrevocably integrates with people internally.  It can't be put down or discarded.  But, even so, I don't think what you mean is what he means.  It's more like how Mordin describes the Collectors (a sure attempt at synthesis).  No soul.  Replaced by tech. 

The tech the kid and reapers have always left kind of defines how he does things.  He directs advancement to prevent randomness and chaos.  The reason the reapers won't work anymore as his solution (as he tells Shepard) is perhaps because for one thing, they advanced faster and in a different, partly uncontrolled way.  The geth were created (he uses his guided advancement to prevent such a thing so the reapers return in time).  They nearly completed the crucible (in destroy at best it is largely intact), and Shepard made it up the conduit.  Things are becoming chaotic even with the reapers. 

But Shepard's presence also opens up the possibility of a more complete synthesis.  This is where magic comes in.  Because why Shepard needs to be a part of it and how it happens is fantasy.  However, it is the kid's goal to always direct things, to in effect attempt to program everything to reach his goal.  Random, free evolution is not fully orderly.  Pre-programmed tech can advance things in a more certain way that is orderly.

But even just the integration of tech would direct things.  If it isn't being used to impart knowledge (reaper knowledge) or to remove frailty, or to enhance physical and mental processes, which would direct evolution, then what is it for?  A wheel is used to overcome some adversity.  All learning and knowledge and invention is to solve a certain problem.  What problem will synthesis fix?  Whatever it "fixes" is exactly the part of evolution that will at first be directed.  And that will begin a cascade.

[3DandBeyond]

lillitheris wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Legion says they have organic minds conjoined in them,

He doesn’t say that, exactly, actually.

"billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies."

to be totally correct.

The organic minds are conjoined within them.  That is the same thing.  I didn't put quotes around what I said because it wasn't a direct quote.

[Ieldra]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

We've been there, Reptilian Rob. The thing is that Synthesis doesn't do all that, except in the minds of those who already dislike it.

The thing is it does exactly that except in the minds of those who can somehow rationalize it all away.  You can say it isn't forced, but what do you call it when it is done without permission.

I never denied that the actual change made by the Synthesis is forced, but that wasn't the point you were making.

You can say it isn't stagnation, but that's exactly what it is intended to lead to.  It is the kid's favorite choice and that's because he will most definitely be in some way directing it toward its inevitable conclusion.  It is meant to stave off chaos and conflict in pursuit of some warped vision of perfection and final evolution.  That does not prevent the synthesized from creating alternate lifeforms, but it determines the end state of their own existence.  Immortality is a conclusion, a final point.  And it still involves some unrealistic idea that the kid would somehow be able to impart full understanding of organics to synthetics when he barely understands the concept himself.

I see no "common forced endpoint". In fact, I see the opposite. I see the possibility for different types of development depending on the preferences of different individuals and cultures. What happens is that one hindrance to such things has been removed by changing the way genetic information is encoded and make it more versatile and compatible with "integrating technology". That Synthesis is "intended to end in stagnation" is based on a literal interpretation of the term "final evolution" while ignoring everything else in the EC, but the Synthesis epilogue makes it clear that the future is not at all fixed. We *may* transcdend mortality. Or some may, others may not want to. I see *more* diversity in individual lifestyles and subcultures, not less.

Individuality is only temporary since that is not the purpose of synthesis.  It is as the kid says-it's to be used toward perfection, as he sees it.  He clearly states that's the reason organics want tech and synthetics want understanding for perfection.  Synthetics get that supposedly, but organics are not perfect yet with tech.  That's why immortality will happen (it's what tech is designed to work for).  And knowledge from a certain perspective.  Everything that is given by this tech is to end chaos and evolution is partly chaotic.  Orderly evolution is evolution in one way with less diversity.

Controlled evolution only results in less diversity if the same type of evolution is chosen by everyone. I do not see that happening. In fact, again I see different people and cultures having a different attitude to these things. There will be those who reject controlling evolution and those who will embrace the concept. Ágain, more diversity rather than less.

What you forget is that individuals have preferences, and that there is no indication at all that those preferences are changed or unified by the Synthesis.

[3DandBeyond]

alleyd wrote...

I am always confused about what makes up an organic mind. How can you process something like a thought or memory which exists as a result of random electrical impulses and chemical reactions within the brain and nervous system These are not permanent structures but are quantum processes.

Yeah, the brain certainly is organic and the structure is organic but as I recall it is discussed within ME at points that organics actually have similar processes to synthetics; they just use different structures to "move them along".

What confounds us is that we also contain things we don't fully understand so we give them these mystical properties.  The heart and love.  Well, we know it's a chemical and physical process that is caused partly by association.  It involves so much of us.  We assign feelings to the heart because if we see the object of our love, our heart quickens and we feel it.  But, it's as much a mental thing as it is a physical thing.  The soul is either a religious symbol that exists in say Christianity because of resurrection or that is seen in non-religious terms as the energy of the person that exists beyond the body-21 grams.  We assign mystical properties to the untouchable.  But people may have measurable energy that does live on, like radio waves or other unseen particles in the air.

[3DandBeyond]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Controlled evolution only results in less diversity if the same type of evolution is chosen by everyone. I do not see that happening. In fact, again I see different people and cultures having a different attitude to these things. There will be those who reject controlling evolution and those who will embrace the concept. Ágain, more diversity rather than less.

What you forget is that individuals have preferences, and that there is no indication at all that those preferences are changed or unified by the Synthesis.

You are imagining that in synthesis the kid is giving you the ability to control all that tech and even their own evolution.  Well, even if that is so, can you not see any problem with that, really?

Hmmm, let's say Wrex tells all Krogan that in order to rebuild Tuchanka, they all must have at least 1000 offspring ASAP.  So, evolution will be controlled by them to make them better baby makers and before too much time has passed Tuchanka is overrun.  So, the current leader tells everyone they must either colonize other planets or stop making so many babies, or both.  But some Krogan want to build their own independent Krogan nations.  Wrex, jr. decides he wants an army of his own who are exactly like him so he directs evolution to discard code that would diverge from that.  Others decide they want to build super Krogan, so they decide to discard code that values brains over sheer strength.  That's one culture.

Maybe the Batarians decide to direct their evolution in ways no one will want and in order to become the dominant race in the galaxy, they also want to create a baby boom.

And what race wouldn't want to stamp out crippling killer diseases?  How about if the Drell on the Hanar home world suddenly have their own epiphany and determine their race needs to be able to live in damp conditions and they need to make babies too.  Think that the Hanar will be super happy?

You believe that people will naturally choose diversity.  This is a fallacy.  People have a problem with different.  There are those that aspire to individualism, but most who even say that do not want to stand out.  Kids often prefer to be like their friends.  People see what someone else has and they want that.  People in oppressed races often identify with the oppressing race in order to "fit in".  They don't do this as a conscious choice, but they often do not want to be different.  And beauty, physical form, talent, ability, all of these things that we desire or appreciate in others become a goal.  It's the idea of what is perfect and it's like mob mentality.  Eventually, everyone wants the same thing or they are not worthy.  The iPad or Apple effect.  People want things because they see others with them.

If suddenly some Asari are growing hair (an homage to B5), then soon there might be some other races that want hair too.  Everyone already has green eyes.  What is desired will start to cause people to conform.  There was an old Twilight Zone or Outer Limits episode where doctors were standing around a pretty girl and saying they didn't know if they could help her.  They said she was just hideous and scary looking and they probably couldn't fix it.  Then it's revealed that the doctors and nurses were hideous as we see it, but she was the different one, so she was horrid in their eyes.

So, if people control their own evolution, it will cause problems-more than it would even help.  Imagine those that don't want to go along with directed evolution, something their leaders say must be done.  But, even so it won't necessarily lead to diversity.  And why wouldn't a heck of a lot of people choose to transcend mortality?  That alone would cause huge problems.

However, I still believe this is not what the kid would want to happen.  That is chaos.  The model of what it would be exists and it's what the kid says.  Synthesis is the road to perfection as he sees it.  His idea has always been to control the direction evolution takes.  Why would this be different? That isn't persistent control, but pre-programmed direction to an end state of evolution.  His goal is to wipe out chaos, conflict, imbalance.  Well, imbalance would always exist with diversity, because things that are not the same are out of balance.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 août 2012 - 05:00 .

[3DandBeyond]

alleyd wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

alleyd wrote...

I am always confused about what makes up an organic mind. How can you process something like a thought or memory which exists as a result of random electrical impulses and chemical reactions within the brain and nervous system These are not permanent structures but are quantum processes.

Yeah, the brain certainly is organic and the structure is organic but as I recall it is discussed within ME at points that organics actually have similar processes to synthetics; they just use different structures to "move them along".

What confounds us is that we also contain things we don't fully understand so we give them these mystical properties.  The heart and love.  Well, we know it's a chemical and physical process that is caused partly by association.  It involves so much of us.  We assign feelings to the heart because if we see the object of our love, our heart quickens and we feel it.  But, it's as much a mental thing as it is a physical thing.  The soul is either a religious symbol that exists in say Christianity because of resurrection or that is seen in non-religious terms as the energy of the person that exists beyond the body-21 grams.  We assign mystical properties to the untouchable.  But people may have measurable energy that does live on, like radio waves or other unseen particles in the air.

It is precsiely these sort of things that make up a mind for me. The processes in the organ actually change and rewire the brain itself.  Even more permanent cognitive process like memory etc can be changed depending on the chemical and electrical state of the brain, the mood state of the mind. How does the organic soup inside the reapers still include this information? How can it store a mind which is a quantum, everchanging construct? Also how can 2 minds communicate? No two human minds are in any way similar, each mind is a construct of the experiences of its life, unique to the individual.

I draw the same confusion with the Transporter beams in Star Trek. this is 100% space magic as far as organic, living tissue. Simply repositioning the atoms isn't enough. Molecules need to be constructed and arranged into cells. All these need to be in sequence and are controlled by enzymes. Doing this is out of the question with living tissue. It cannot be done fast enough to prevent any quantum variation. 

Yes, exactly.  Our brains are still constantly forming-pathways, connections, associations, working all together to make it happen.  In stroke patients and in patients with some cognitive difficulties they have used such things as "crawl therapy" to help rewire the brain.  It's known that in babies crawling has a relation to cognition.  The physical is a part of the mental in all ways.  If my body is not efficient at creating certain chemicals, then my brain will develop in certain ways and I will think in different ways.  If my mental energy is uploaded into a different matrix that perhaps does things differently, more efficiently, I will no longer be me. 

Synthesis with tech that even only changes people in small incremental ways destroys the persons that existed previously.  Would it move dopamine more effectively, would serotonin, endorphines, adrenaline, and all body chemicals be re-aligned to be "correct" and just what is "correct"?  Who defines that?  Would Van Gogh have been Van Gogh if he was not troubled?  Or Hemingway?  Einstein sucked in school.  What if he had been fixed and did well, so that ordinary learning (inside the box) worked well enough for him.  Edison saw failure as a stepping stone to success.  And there's the whole idea of inspiration vs. perspiration.  This is key.  You learn far more and you change yourself far more internally with failure than with success.  The hardest steel is forged in fire.  And diamonds are created under pressure from mere rocks.  Some of our greatest cultural leaps have occurred because people could not assimilate or were not allowed to assimilate into the prevailing society and societal norms.  And many couldn't because they did not operate under some idea of mental or physical norm.  Would Stephen Hawking have spent so much time thinking had he not so painfully been fairly locked away inside his own body?  Not that I would wish that kind of life on anyone and if it were in my power, I'd help him, but that's the point.  It was not mine to choose and I have no idea if he would want that at all.  And I wouldn't trade him for a hundred less thoughty Stephen Hawkings.  He is the gem he is because of who he is and how he overcame what life handed him.

We also learn certain character building things from seeing the things others overcome.  We learn compassion, caring, seek understanding.  We even see the baser natures of others who might laugh at another's weakness.  None of this leaves us unchanged.  We may also learn and appreciation of things, what we have, the good things that we take for granted.  I'd take away all pain if I could, but in many ways it is good that that is not in my power.  The frailty and brevity of life in some ways is to make us appreciate each other more.  Perfection is not life lived without pain.  It is life that goes beyond the pain, that does not dwell within it.  It is determining to be happy when things seem to work against that.  It's a baby's smile at seeing your face (your imperfect individualistic asymetrical face).  It's watching a baby try to walk and fall and then seeing that baby get up and try again.  Perfection is the indomitable spirit in us all.  It is making the best of this time that we have and it's continuing learning and adapting.  I'm short.  I'd like to be taller, but being short I feel in many ways gifted.  I can't reach high things in stores, but oh well.  I'm closer to flowers and pets.  And crawling babies.  Directed evolution would set a perfect height. 

[His Name was HYR!!]

It is precsiely these sort of things that make up a mind for me. The processes in the organ actually change and rewire the brain itself.  Even more permanent cognitive process like memory etc can be changed depending on the chemical and electrical state of the brain, the mood state of the mind. How does the organic soup inside the reapers still include this information? How can it store a mind which is a quantum, everchanging construct?

... it's a little late to complain about space-magic concepts. This series has been full of them from the start.

Also how can 2 minds communicate? No two human minds are in any way similar, each mind is a construct of the experiences of its life, unique to the individual.

Probably the same way synthetic minds like the geth communicate. These are Reapers we're talking about.

Synthesis with tech that even only changes people in small incremental ways destroys the persons that existed previously.  Would it move dopamine more effectively, would serotonin, endorphines, adrenaline, and all body chemicals be re-aligned to be "correct" and just what is "correct"?  Who defines that?  Would Van Gogh have been Van Gogh if he was not troubled?  Or Hemingway?  Einstein sucked in school.  What if he had been fixed and did well, so that ordinary learning (inside the box) worked well enough for him.  Edison saw failure as a stepping stone to success.  And there's the whole idea of inspiration vs. perspiration.  This is key.  You learn far more and you change yourself far more internally with failure than with success.  The hardest steel is forged in fire.  And diamonds are created under pressure from mere rocks.  Some of our greatest cultural leaps have occurred because people could not assimilate or were not allowed to assimilate into the prevailing society and societal norms.  And many couldn't because they did not operate under some idea of mental or physical norm.  Would Stephen Hawking have spent so much time thinking had he not so painfully been fairly locked away inside his own body?  Not that I would wish that kind of life on anyone and if it were in my power, I'd help him, but that's the point.  It was not mine to choose and I have no idea if he would want that at all.  And I wouldn't trade him for a hundred less thoughty Stephen Hawkings.  He is the gem he is because of who he is and how he overcame what life handed him.

People come and go all the time. What they accomplish and the ideas they promote do not. That's the whole point of history IMO. So, when it comes down to it, I don't think that the butterfly effect is worth lamenting about synthesis. New people will accomplish new things and introduce new ideas like always.

We also learn certain character building things from seeing the things others overcome.  We learn compassion, caring, seek understanding.  We even see the baser natures of others who might laugh at another's weakness.  None of this leaves us unchanged.  We may also learn and appreciation of things, what we have, the good things that we take for granted.  I'd take away all pain if I could, but in many ways it is good that that is not in my power.  The frailty and brevity of life in some ways is to make us appreciate each other more.  Perfection is not life lived without pain.  It is life that goes beyond the pain, that does not dwell within it.  It is determining to be happy when things seem to work against that.  It's a baby's smile at seeing your face (your imperfect individualistic asymetrical face).  It's watching a baby try to walk and fall and then seeing that baby get up and try again.  Perfection is the indomitable spirit in us all.  It is making the best of this time that we have and it's continuing learning and adapting.  I'm short.  I'd like to be taller, but being short I feel in many ways gifted.  I can't reach high things in stores, but oh well.  I'm closer to flowers and pets.  And crawling babies.  Directed evolution would set a perfect height. 

I'm sure there's still plenty to overcome and learn post-synthesis. Not only that, but the eyeball test is about enough to see very clearly that differences between people still exist, so there goes that notion.

[3DandBeyond]

Ieldra2 wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
Another thing, when the catalyst says "organics seek perfection through technology", he doesn't mean everyone wants to be implanted. What he means that we, organics, have always used tech to overcome our physical limitations. Can't run fast? invent wheel. Can't fly, invent aircraft. Can't swin long enough? Invent ships. This quest has continued from primitive times and continues to this day, both in the real world and MEU. This is what he implies. Again, makes sense?

It is a general statement of that kind, yes. Nonetheless, Synthesis is about acquiring the ability to overcome limitations of one's own hardware by "integrating synthetic technology". I agree that it doesn't mean everyone is implanted. It means everyone can be implanted with lots of stuff easily with no hindrance from the biological system if they so wish. Similar to the way Adam Jensen of DX:HR has a unique genetic structure that prevents his body from rejecting augmentations, maybe going a little further than that.

Keiji's appearance is open to interpretation. If all the information that made up Keiji exists in the greybox, and you have his DNA, then it should be possible to reconstruct him.

Ok, wait what?  Now, not everyone is implanted?  Uh, you like to view the cutscenes as a guideline, so that pretty much makes it clear everyone is.  The kid never says people can just decide what tech they want at all, nor is that implied at all.  And who is to say what is a hindrance and what is not?  There is nothing that says people control any of this within themselves.  You can't use something in Deus ex as a model for this.  The model for what would happen and what the kid wants exists in this game, ME3.  He's telling you it but you keep creating new definitions for what he is saying.

And still I really do want to know how he will give all synthetic life instant and full understanding of organics.  We obsess over the other part of it, what happens to organics and all, but this gets ignored time and again.  How can a beam of energy impart full understanding of organics to synthetics.  I ask this knowing full well that this will probably mean synthetics can choose to learn about organics if they want to but they don't have to know and won't actually be given full understanding.  But, just as the kid says organics will have a new...DNA, and that they will be fully integrated with tech, that you take to mean they won't be, he also says synthetics will have full understanding of organics.  Where will this come from?  Shepard's DNA?  Well Shepard doesn't have full understanding of organics and what understanding would this give them?  The molecular make up of organics?  That's not full understanding.  And the kid is no expert either.  So, what magical entity gives synthetics this full understanding?  Even if it merely meant they'd be receptive to learning about them or some such (which is not what the kid says), they'd never ever get full understanding because that's an impossibility.

[3DandBeyond]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

It is precsiely these sort of things that make up a mind for me. The processes in the organ actually change and rewire the brain itself.  Even more permanent cognitive process like memory etc can be changed depending on the chemical and electrical state of the brain, the mood state of the mind. How does the organic soup inside the reapers still include this information? How can it store a mind which is a quantum, everchanging construct?

... it's a little late to complain about space-magic concepts. This series has been full of them from the start.

Space magic if held in check and if explained is fine as a device to carry a plot along or to use for minor things along the way.  However, ME always took great pains to explain such "space magic" in creating the in story pseudo science.  Much of what you call space magic is given explanation within the science created within the game, even where it is not based on real science.  That's what makes it fictional. 

The use of space magic at the most critical point of 3 games, where you should be given credible, realistic, believable answers to things and where the salient conflict is being decided (which should be a cataclysmic event in a war story), breaks apart the fabric of the story.  Over the top space magic that is used to decide the outcome of conflict and then that is given very poor explanation, leads to the disconnect many people feel.

It's like playing a WWII game and then in the end, the outcome is achieved when the good witch Belinda drops down and waves her wand (exaggeration, but still what many feel).  If Belinda was explained it might help, but there's no way it's satisfying to have WWII end because some magic made it so. 

You have to be able to suspend disbelief.  Synthesis just is too unreal, unnatural, and abhorrent for a variety of reasons.  It cannot be explained in believable ways.  And the game doesn't do a good job of it at all.  It might have been ok somewhere else in the game, but as a way to end the reaper threat, it does not work.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 25 août 2012 - 06:18 .

[Ieldra]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Ok, wait what?  Now, not everyone is implanted?  Uh, you like to view the cutscenes as a guideline, so that pretty much makes it clear everyone is.

Well, no. It is implied that organics have their biochemistry changed. Nothing more.

The kid never says people can just decide what tech they want at all, nor is that implied at all.  And who is to say what is a hindrance and what is not?  There is nothing that says people control any of this within themselves.  You can't use something in Deus ex as a model for this.  The model for what would happen and what the kid wants exists in this game, ME3.  He's telling you it but you keep creating new definitions for what he is saying.

It also never says everyone gets certain things apart from the ability to integrate technology. "Everyone gets implanted" is something *you* put in. It's one possible interpretation, but certainly not the only one. Also, there is contradictory information about what exactly makes the Synthesis possible, so as I see it, it mostly comes from the Crucible. Yeah, I know you'll deny that on grounds of the Crucible being "not much more than an energy source", but there's also "the Crucible changed me, created new possibilities".
In short, no, Synthesis is not a solution designed by the Catalyst, it is just the one of the available solutions most favored by it.

And still I really do want to know how he will give all synthetic life instant and full understanding of organics. [...]  Where will this come from?  Shepard's DNA?

I take it to mean they understand the way organics connect to each other empathically and gain the ability to experience the same. But granted, this is extremely sketchy, and where it comes from is anyone's guess. If you want to complain about the confusing, space-magicky way Shepard's sacrifice fits into it all (or rather, doesn't fit), I'm on the same side as you. Just because I like the outcome doesn't mean I like the way it's brought about. 

[Shaigunjoe]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
... it's a little late to complain about space-magic concepts. This series has been full of them from the start.

Yet people will still do it, despite the huge contradiction that is mass effect fields and Shep being rebuilt down to the memories after being spaced(but magic makes it possible!).  Oh, and lets not forget you can play as real space wizards whose mass effect fields magically ignore friendlies if you are in the vicinity. 

The rule of thumb is that space magic is ok as long as there are paragraphs of more space magic explaining it.