Aller au contenu

Photo

A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
9089 réponses à ce sujet

#4626
lillitheris

lillitheris
  • Members
  • 5 332 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Legion says they have organic minds conjoined in them,


He doesn’t say that, exactly, actually.


"billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies."

to be totally correct.

The organic minds are conjoined within them.  That is the same thing.  I didn't put quotes around what I said because it wasn't a direct quote.


"billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies."

Important part is bolded.


Edit: this is, by the way, of course still speculation on Legion’s part. It’s operating from premise that there were a large number of detectable processes within the Reaper collective, and the assumption that putting people in a blender results in a mind upload.

Modifié par lillitheris, 25 août 2012 - 09:34 .


#4627
lillitheris

lillitheris
  • Members
  • 5 332 messages
I’d explain the concept of an internally consistent fictional universe, but I honestly can’t be bothered.

Modifié par lillitheris, 25 août 2012 - 09:41 .


#4628
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages
[quote]lillitheris wrote...

[/quote]

"billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies."

Important part is bolded.


Edit: this is, by the way, of course still speculation on Legion’s part. It’s operating from premise that there were a large number of detectable processes within the Reaper collective, and the assumption that putting people in a blender results in a mind upload.
[/quote]

I do see what you are saying, but my quote was directed at another post and wasn't really specifically about how the minds got there.  This uploading wasn't part of the discussion, it was rather about there being all those different minds.

#4629
3DandBeyond

3DandBeyond
  • Members
  • 7 579 messages

Ieldra2 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
Ok, wait what?  Now, not everyone is implanted?  Uh, you like to view the cutscenes as a guideline, so that pretty much makes it clear everyone is.

Well, no. It is implied that organics have their biochemistry changed. Nothing more.



Uh, yeah.  No, you are making inferences and imagining this.  The kid specifically says that organics will be fully integrated with synthetic technology.  He also says it will change the matrix of all organics and it will combine all organics and synthetics into a new framework.  So, you are defining it to fit something the kid does not say.  And the cutscenes/slides with circuit board skin make it pretty clear what has happened. 

#4630
Enthalpy

Enthalpy
  • Members
  • 105 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

Enthalpy wrote...
Ah, back to this again. What players think the Catalyst thinks. Losses due to war occur in every ending. As for what the Catalyst can/cannot and will/will not do with synthesis tech after the war (and whether it still exists at all), that's ripe for headcanon. So by all means, full speed ahead. Goodnight.

I never was talking about the kid controlling people after synthesis.  But the inserted tech would be just like tech he constantly had the reapers seed throughout the galaxy-to create the path for advancement.


Um... I don't think so.

I am listing all the major Reaper tech that have been shown in the series off the top of my head.
1. Artifacts: Arca Monolith, Object Rho, dragon's teeth, Abandoned Mine artifact in Mass Effect 2
2. Nanites and implants: the cases of Grayson, Saren, and the Illusive Man
3. Reapers: Sovereign-class, Destroyers, and destroyed/crippled Reapers

Out of the artifacts, everything except Object Rho quickly reduces victims to husks, without any free will and with drastic physical changes. Unless one subscribes to the indoctrination line of thought, neither of these are true in the ending.

Out of the second category, every case except the Illusive Man's involves at least micro-scale technology. That is, they started as more conventional injections and implants, not the instantaneous picoscale (or smaller) insertions.

Out of the third category, all of those are capable of slow indoctrination. Object Rho can also do this. However, it is unknown if indoctrination can affect genetic makeup. It has only been shown to affect mental processes.

So, unless I am missing something, the most pertinent case is TIM's. He received his cybernetic eyes near-instantaneously through contact with the Monolith. It is unknown whether these eyes have been a factor in his indoctrination (as opposed to all the other Reaper tech he voluntarily put into himself much later). It is also unknown whether his genetic makeup was changed by these augments. 

Therefore, the synthesis tech differs from all these known cases. That is not to say that the synthesis tech cannot be pernicious in some other way! Only that it is not the same as what we have seen before. If bits of silicon, copper, and other elements are assembled into a motherboard, then you can build a computer with it. However, if you have individual atoms of silicon, that's not possible. I think we are more familiar with the motherboards, not the atoms.

And I never thought for a moment that you believe the Catalyst would control people in the common interpretation of the word. I've always gotten the gist that you believe that synthesis tech can manipulate people's genes according to the Catalyst's wishes. But I think that whether the tech is capable of doing this, and whether the Catalyst is willing to do this, and whether the process depends on the Catalyst, are all speculative questions.

For example, the tech could be capable of eliminating diversity (say, by discontinuing all genes carried by less than 10% of the population), and it could start to do this already. The Catalyst, being synthetic, now understands organic priorities and sees this as a bad thing but there's nothing it can do to stop it from happening.

Or, the tech could be capable of eliminating diversity, but it stays dormant. The Catalyst wants to activate this capability, but it cannot because the organic-designed Crucible didn't implement the tech in such a way that the Catalyst can interact with it.

Headcanons swap the answers around and around.

#4631
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
Ok, wait what?  Now, not everyone is implanted?  Uh, you like to view the cutscenes as a guideline, so that pretty much makes it clear everyone is.

Well, no. It is implied that organics have their biochemistry changed. Nothing more.

Uh, yeah.  No, you are making inferences and imagining this.  The kid specifically says that organics will be fully integrated with synthetic technology.  He also says it will change the matrix of all organics and it will combine all organics and synthetics into a new framework.  So, you are defining it to fit something the kid does not say.  And the cutscenes/slides with circuit board skin make it pretty clear what has happened. 

Since we're mincing words here, no, that's not what the Catalyst says. It says organics will "be perfected by integrating with synthetic technology". This implies it is an ongoing process that Synthesis starts up. If I say it can go anywhere that's an interpretation at least as valid as your saying it goes to a predetermined state. The epilogue  implies future developments so it's not a static state. Also, those circuitry overlays existed in the original endings when it was still about "hybrid DNA". That's clearly not meant to be taken literally, but like the eyes, an artistic representation of mostly invisible changes. The new framework, well, there's a contradiction since in the EC organics and synthetics are treated differently, still having no common framework. That, too, is said to be a possible development for the future, when "line between synthetic and organic" may disappear.

#4632
DirtyPhoenix

DirtyPhoenix
  • Members
  • 3 938 messages

3DandBeyond wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Another thing, when the catalyst says "organics seek perfection through technology", he doesn't mean everyone wants to be implanted. What he means that we, organics, have always used tech to overcome our physical limitations. Can't run fast? invent wheel. Can't fly, invent aircraft. Can't swin long enough? Invent ships. This quest has continued from primitive times and continues to this day, both in the real world and MEU. This is what he implies. Again, makes sense? :P


It makes sense, except that the tech he's proposing is fully integrated internally even in people that never wanted implants of any kind.  The kind of tech you describe is used as a tool that can be put down or if implanted can be removed.  The kid defines his view of perfection as the ultimate final form of evolution.  The tech he is talking about irrevocably integrates with people internally.  It can't be put down or discarded.  But, even so, I don't think what you mean is what he means.  It's more like how Mordin describes the Collectors (a sure attempt at synthesis).  No soul.  Replaced by tech. 


It is the same thing in principle, except that it is done internally, and it is done without people's consent. Who knows, maybe as we acquire the know-how in future we might find a way to reverse the process for those who don't want it. I don't know, but it was the first thing that came to my mind when he said that sentense, and I found myself agreeing with him (on the organics seeking perfection through tech part, not something else). Mordin was using that sentense to describe husks, the people in the synthesis epilogue don't look like husks to me. If his idea of perfection was huskification why'd he need synthesis, he was doing that just fine before that.


Also, the green circuit thing is (IMO) merely a visual representation of the change. Much like how reaper lights turn blue in control and the explosions are RGB coloured, they are never explained. Even Garrus's armour and Joker's hat have those patterns. I doubt they mean anything deeper than "Yeah the change has occured".

Modifié par pirate1802, 26 août 2012 - 03:34 .


#4633
DirtyPhoenix

DirtyPhoenix
  • Members
  • 3 938 messages
nvm

Modifié par pirate1802, 27 août 2012 - 02:03 .


#4634
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages
I notice I still need to reply to a few things, but I'm too busy playing ME2 - too bad I won't get to the end before Leviathan comes out. I'll have to play it out of sequence, and that sucks.

While I'm at it, what does everyone think of the scene with the husk "awakening"? For me, it was one of the oddest parts of the Synthesis ending, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of it.

#4635
His Name was HYR!!

His Name was HYR!!
  • Members
  • 9 145 messages
I'm neutral on the husk thing. Not a fan of it particularly, but I get how that would be a consequence of choosing synthesis, and am OK with it for that reason. The player should have to face the consequences of their actions IMO.

Note that I mean "consequence" in a neutral sense, not in the negative connotation the word usually carries.

#4636
jtav

jtav
  • Members
  • 13 965 messages
I thought it was sublime. The mindless dead are now alive and free.

#4637
webhead921

webhead921
  • Members
  • 899 messages

Ieldra2 wrote...

I notice I still need to reply to a few things, but I'm too busy playing ME2 - too bad I won't get to the end before Leviathan comes out. I'll have to play it out of sequence, and that sucks.

While I'm at it, what does everyone think of the scene with the husk "awakening"? For me, it was one of the oddest parts of the Synthesis ending, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of it.


I don't like it.  I wish that would have been left out.  It almost feels like they had the husk scene planed in control/destroy, and added one to the synthesis ending because they already had the resources and to make it line up with the other two endings.  I thought it was totally unncessesary.  

What do you all think of the fact that synthesis is the only ending where the soldiers do not cheer?

#4638
Enthalpy

Enthalpy
  • Members
  • 105 messages
It doesn't make sense that the husks would recover anything of their previous identities. Those indoctrinated salarians on Virmire couldn't do anything without Sovereign's commands, and they weren't even physically modified to my knowledge. Therefore, I'm more inclined to think that the husks either become some entirely new type of life, or the hosts to Reaper processes like the mobile platforms are to geth processes. Leaning towards the latter, because the thought that the husk was actually part of a Reaper going "OMGWTFBBQ" amuses me.

#4639
DirtyPhoenix

DirtyPhoenix
  • Members
  • 3 938 messages
I'm of the view that the husks gaining sentience, is intended to give those who select synthesis something to think over, a negative aspect if you like. I don't think they recover anything of their pre-huskification process, they maybe like a newborn. Would they be accepted in the society, how would they be accepted? Implications... unknown.

Enthalpy wrote...
Leaning towards the latter, because the thought that the husk was actually part of a Reaper going "OMGWTFBBQ" amuses me.


You mean that reaction on the husk's face was actually a reaper's reaction after getting synthesized? that's certainly amusing. :D

webhead921 wrote...
What do you all think of the fact that synthesis is the only ending where the soldiers do not cheer?


I think they do not cheer because they sense something strange has happened, both to the reapers and to themselves. hence they are confused. In control and destroy its pretty straightforward. Reapers are dead or the leave without any side-effect. In synthesis not so much. Symbolically may I suggest that it implies old enemies no longer being enemies? A dawn of a new era as Ieldra2 put it?

Modifié par pirate1802, 27 août 2012 - 04:34 .


#4640
JedTed

JedTed
  • Members
  • 1 109 messages
 

Ieldra2 wrote...

While I'm at it, what does everyone think of the scene with the husk "awakening"? For me, it was one of the oddest parts of the Synthesis ending, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to make of it.


When i first saw the husk with green eyes my initial thought was what it would say now that it's mind had been liberated.  "Husk......feel......tinglely." 

After thinking about it i tend to reflect on if the husks are really alive.  If you see them as nothing more than cybernetically enhanced zombies that can't be cured then they are monsters.  However, when Shepard died, his body had decayed beyond recognition yet Cerberus brought him back with technology.  When you listen to that woman arguing with the hospital receptionist if President Huerta is alive, if you side with the receptionist Shepard says he's no different from a husk.  If only they knew the truth about how Shepard died.


Enthalpy wrote...

So, unless I am missing something, the most pertinent case is TIM's. He received his cybernetic eyes near-instantaneously through contact with the Monolith. It is unknown whether these eyes have been a factor in his indoctrination (as opposed to all the other Reaper tech he voluntarily put into himself much later). It is also unknown whether his genetic makeup was changed by these augments. 


Is this an official retcon?  I've read the Evolution comic but i hadn't made the connection that TIM's eyes were a result of the Monolith.  It would make sense and since ME3 i've considered TIM(and possibly Saren) have been indoctrinated ever since that moment.  Nobody realized that Rana Thenoptis had been indoctrinated on Virmire(well i didn't).

That reminds me, we never hear what became of that one clear headed salarian STG agent you set free.  Maybe the fact that you don't see him again is a good sign, if he was indoctrinated i bet you'd find him working with Maelon on Tuchanka. :)

#4641
JedTed

JedTed
  • Members
  • 1 109 messages
When a husk is created, all the water is drained from the body and replaced with cybernetics. I get that but what happens to the brain? Would it just rapidly decay without any nutrients?

#4642
Ieldra

Ieldra
  • Members
  • 25 190 messages
Hmm...interesting responses about the husks. Here's what I think of it:

This is yet another case where Bioware didn't think things through. Here's why:

At several times in the trilogy it has been suggested that self-aware life has a component we have not yet discovered, but which the Reapers know about. Between Shepard's coming back to life, which should have been impossible but was made possible through "black box" technology, EDI's self-awareness which is based on Reaper technology, Legion and the geth becoming full self-aware AIs by adding Reaper code whose structure is "reminiscent of life" it is heavily implied that the Reapers have a greater insight into the roots of our self-awareness than we have. In particular, it is suggested that life, identity and self-awareness can be recovered from information left over even after the organism has died, and that Reaper technology can collect and store that information.

Thus, I think the intention of the husk scene was to suggest that husks could be restored. This is also in line with the scene with Kasumi and Keiji.

However, I don't think Bioware thought this through at all, else they'd have noticed the technological retcon they'd have to do with things like the creation of husks, which would have to be something very similar to the result of creating a Reaper, to say nothing of the rather ugly implications a restoration would have, particularly with those Reaper minions who are made up from several organic individuals. In addition, I do not like the original suggestion that self-awareness is more than an emergent property of matter one bit since it goes too much into fantasy for my taste - and the idea that everything you are is stored in your DNA and can be recovered from that is ridiculous.

For those reasons, I prefer a different interpretation: the awakened Reaper minions are self-aware avatars of their respective Reaper, in a similar way individual geth platforms are avatars of the geth consensus - capable of individual thought and motivation but still inextricably connected to their "source". It is also possible that individual minds that make up a Reaper's gestalt mind may be able to inhabit the Reaper minions, but whatever they are, restored from their original personalities they are not. If anyone, only those organic individuals processed to be part of a Reaper (in what's called a "destructive upload") or affected in accidentally similar ways by non-Reaper tech can be restored. The others are lost forever, and that includes husks.

@JedTed:
In ME:Evolution, Harper gets his glowing eyes after contact with the Reaper artifact, but I do not think he was indoctrinated back then. There may have been some Reaper influence and there was certainly some Reaper knowledge, but the Reapers only gained control over him after he implanted himself in ME3.
As for husk physiology, it should be quite possible to replace brains with some high-density computronium, but that would be a rather involved process and the husks are mindless, so I gather it doesn't happen. They retain just enough awareness to be useful as shock troops for the Reapers.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 août 2012 - 01:07 .


#4643
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages

jtav wrote...

I thought it was sublime. The mindless dead are now alive and free.


To what degree? Remember Pratearians? What the hell did you just make?

What about Brutes?

It reminds me a lot of the Cybermen in Doctor Who. Once they became aware they wanted to die.

I think it's entirely unfair to do that to someone. I would rather die.

Being alive =/= Being free

#4644
DirtyPhoenix

DirtyPhoenix
  • Members
  • 3 938 messages

Taboo-XX wrote...

jtav wrote...

I thought it was sublime. The mindless dead are now alive and free.


To what degree? Remember Pratearians? What the hell did you just make?

What about Brutes?

It reminds me a lot of the Cybermen in Doctor Who. Once they became aware they wanted to die.

I think it's entirely unfair to do that to someone. I would rather die.

Being alive =/= Being free


I see it as a side effect of Synthesis, just like synthetics dying in destroy. And I welcome it as a negative of synthesis. I don't want a flawless ending, which many believe synthesis to already be.

Modifié par pirate1802, 28 août 2012 - 02:10 .


#4645
DirtyPhoenix

DirtyPhoenix
  • Members
  • 3 938 messages
jtav, I was reading your synthesis thread, Why I chose synthesis. Some nice points you made there. One of them caught my attention. In control, if the Reapers, or AI!Shepard somehow goes rogue in future, we would have nothing to stop them, save rebuilding the crucible, rinse and repeat. But if such a thing happens in synthesis, at least we would be better equipped than the other situation. Never thought of that. O_o

#4646
Taboo

Taboo
  • Members
  • 20 234 messages
Organics have shown to be more than capable of dealing with the threat. That's why the Catalyst's solution no longer works. Destroy, Control and Synthesis are all solutions.

Building a new Crucible every thousand years a firing it off is a better solution than his. Although you might have some issues without a Catalyst.

#4647
DirtyPhoenix

DirtyPhoenix
  • Members
  • 3 938 messages
No i meant the threat of rogue reapers, not synthetics. A threat exclusive to control and synthesis.

#4648
fiendishchicken

fiendishchicken
  • Members
  • 3 389 messages

pirate1802 wrote...

jtav, I was reading your synthesis thread, Why I chose synthesis. Some nice points you made there. One of them caught my attention. In control, if the Reapers, or AI!Shepard somehow goes rogue in future, we would have nothing to stop them, save rebuilding the crucible, rinse and repeat. But if such a thing happens in synthesis, at least we would be better equipped than the other situation. Never thought of that. O_o


Or you could, you know destroy. Reaper Problem solved permanently.

Synthetics you say? Treat them like everyone else. Let them know they're just as special as everyone else. 

#4649
His Name was HYR!!

His Name was HYR!!
  • Members
  • 9 145 messages

Taboo-XX wrote...

Organics have shown to be more than capable of dealing with the threat. That's why the Catalyst's solution no longer works. Destroy, Control and Synthesis are all solutions.

Building a new Crucible every thousand years a firing it off is a better solution than his. Although you might have some issues without a Catalyst.


That, and building it again, and firing it in time. We were lucky in that way: we found it early and had enough time to finish it, and much of the work had already been done.

When it comes down to it, major galactic threats can still exist after the Reapers, in any ending. Probably not on the same scale, but that hardly matters if its still enough to threaten the whole galaxy. Control may be the best equipped to deal with those threats, then again, it may become the thing it tried to protect against (like most dictatorships).

#4650
DirtyPhoenix

DirtyPhoenix
  • Members
  • 3 938 messages

fiendishchicken wrote...

Or you could, you know destroy. Reaper Problem solved permanently.

Synthetics you say? Treat them like everyone else. Let them know they're just as special as everyone else. 


Sadly destroy is out of question for me. I'd still pick it for one or two of my Shepards, if they canonize it I'll do a full trilogy playthrough with destroy in mind, but mostly the choice is between control and synthesis for me. The point I was making was considering those two choices.