9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Chashan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The leviathans would be affected by Synthesis like any other organic species, meaning their attitude will not be directly affected. Also I don't think they'll be happy with the Reapers not being destroyed. I don't see them as the big epic threat of the post-Reapers era, since I see the post-Synthesis civilization as the most powerful (if not the most unified, that would be post-Control civilization), but I think it's plausible that they'll cause problems.

That is pretty much up in the air, but if Reap-hurrs are integrated without too many problems, why not their voyeuristic inventors?
And Control being the most unified...I do not know about that, Paul Atreides in Dune also pretty much conquered the known universe with his Fedaykin fanatics, yet his legacy was beset by dissent and disorder as well, to look at other sci-fi stories that offered the rule of a quasi-God Emperor.

Edit:
As for the understanding of the human brain, no, that's far from complete, but basically everyone agrees that its functionality is based on normal bio-chemistry. The brain may have emergent properties, but anyone seriously claiming an extradimensional component would be laughed out of the scientific community.

That specific choice of words is...unfortunate, yes. Yet, what would human history be without discourse about the afterlife, the powers that be and the human soul...
Pretty boring far as I am concerned.



One more thing:

Soo... this thread is the home of all indoctrinated people. Seen some of
your sigs, I don't think you people know what ascension means.

It could have meant something like this:

www.youtube.com/watch

...Sadly, nothing of the kind is happening in Green, otherwise I could warm up to it some more.
As is, I can only file Green away as a failed attempt at the realisation of a nowhere-land that could have been remarkable indeed. Instead, it fell way, way short.

Modifié par Chashan, 01 septembre 2012 - 01:31 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Just finished Leviathan, thoroughly enjoyed it. Easily on par with LotSB, and exceeding it in some respects.

I don't know why some people think leviathan invalidates destroy. Wasn't the point of picking destroy was to face an uncertain future at our own terms? So when a possible enemy of that future has a name and face, whats's there to worry suddenly? If they were that uncomfortable with the future they should have probably gone with control.

This enemy is a pretty weak one, requires its crystal balls to control people, balls which break with a couple of bullets. Without those balls they are nothing. And its form of indoctrination breaks pretty easily too, and is not as destructive as reaper indoctrination. The leviathan War asset entry tells they rely on alliance soldiers to transport those balls behind enemy lines. after which they do their thing. They are confined on a single planet, their numbers may be unknown but its reasonable to assume there aren't may of them left. I can't see how they are that big a threat as some destroyers are making it out to be.

Some people also think it invalidates control, because they were able to control a reaper? There were three of them (and maybe more) and they were able to control one reaper by their combined might. That ship was teeming with their artifacts, I must have destroyed 8-9 of them walking around. If they could that easily overpower reapers they would never have hidden.

In Synthesis, they actually gain an ability to connect with people's minds without their crystal balls. They may become more powerful in synthesis. So as far as I can see, its a point against synthesis, rather than pushing it.

Modifié par pirate1802, 01 septembre 2012 - 06:44 .

[Veloric Wu]

I think the Leviahan DLC somehow encourages people to choose Destroy~

~but that just makes Synthesis a (more) tasteful and quality idea

Modifié par FeriktheCerberus, 04 septembre 2012 - 12:34 .

[Aurora313]

Gotta tell you the truth, with the whole Leviathan DLC lore? As much as I like the idea of malevolent, imperialist precursors.
I think I prefer my original headcanon about the Creators of the Reapers. That the original concept of the Catalyst was to find a race worthy enough to take the Creator's place as top-dog, And it was the mistake of a few inherently selfish individuals screwing around with the coding that gave rise to the current Catalyst AI we meet. The Creators forged the Citadel as it's prison, but the rogue AI still systematically assumed control and slaughtered most of the Creator race, turning the rest into Harbinger.

[Ieldra]

@Aurora313:
The part about a few individuals screwing with the coding doesn't contradict anything and it's plausible, too: how else would you explain that there was no safety clause in the AI's coding that would prevent it from turning against its creators - after the leviathans witnessed exactly that happening to their thrall species?

@FeriktheCerberus:
Opinions about that vary. Some say Leviathan damages Destroy because the leviathans will re-conquer the galaxy while post-Destroy civilization is rebuilding and the civilizations after the other endings are better equipped to deal with. Some say Leviathan damages Synthesis because the leviathans will use the mindlink mentioned by the Catalyst to enslave the galaxy. As I see it, neither scenario makes a lot of sense. The capabilities of the leviathans are too limited and they are too few a galaxy-wide re-emergence as a power, and galactic civilization will be very wary of them to start with.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:07 .

[Ieldra]

Crossposting this thematic description of the ending options to prevent it from getting lost:

Ieldra2 wrote...
Philosophically, the differences in the endings are mainly these:

(1) Destroy affirms the human condition. It affirms karma. Wherever we go, be it into a bright future or into extinction, we do it as free people and sticking to what we are and have always been. Any future advancement will happen within these boundaries.
Destroy also affirms the organic template with its chaotic evolution as the original, "true" form of life. It is an implicitly pro-organic choice, even though most people choose it for other reasons.

(2) Control affirms an order that holds our nature in check. Survival is more important than freedom, at least for the foreseeable future. Sapient life is as children and needs to be guided to adulthood. Some freedom is denied until we've learned how to use it. Or forever, depending on your viewpoint.
Control is also a pro-Synthetic choice. Synthetic intelligence is the type that can guide us into the future and prevent us from destroying ourselves.

(3) Synthesis is embracing the unknown, radically stepping beyond the boundaries Destroy seeks to affirm. If we cannot make a bright future as we are, then we must change ourselves. "There are infinite possibilities, but not for Man" (quote from the top of OP). Synthesis affirms that transcending the human condition is the only way to truly grow and asserts there is a (non-Reaperized) ascended future which will remain forever beyond our comprehension if we stay as we are.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 septembre 2012 - 01:11 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Crossposting this thematic description of the ending options to prevent it from getting lost:

Ieldra2 wrote...
Philosophically, the differences in the endings are mainly these:

(1) Destroy affirms the human condition. It affirms karma. Wherever we go, be it into a bright future or into extinction, we do it as free people and sticking to what we are and have always been. Any future advancement will happen within these boundaries.
Destroy also affirms the organic template with its chaotic evolution as the original, "true" form of life. It is an implicitly pro-organic choice, even though most people choose it for other reasons.

(2) Control affirms an order that holds our nature in check. Survival is more important than freedom, at least for the foreseeable future. Sapient life is as children and needs to be guided to adulthood. Some freedom is denied until we've learned how to use it. Or forever, depending on your viewpoint.
Control is also a pro-Synthetic choice. Synthetic intelligence is the type that can guide us into the future and prevent us from destroying ourselves.

(3) Synthesis is embracing the unknown, radically stepping beyond the boundaries Destroy seeks to affirm. If we cannot make a bright future as we are, then we must change ourselves. "There are infinite possibilities, but not for Man" (quote from the top of OP). Synthesis affirms that transcending the human condition is the only way to truly grow and asserts there is a (non-Reaperized) ascended future which will remain forever beyond our comprehension if we stay as we are.

Loved it.

[George Costanza]

There's some really interesting stuff in here. I absolutely detest Synthesis. But I've actually enjoyed reading a lot of the opinions here, and the work that went into the initial post is quite impressive. Very well done.

[Ieldra]

Thanks, George Constanza. All the unreasonable hate Synthesis has been getting has had the interesting effect that I went to extra efforts with the OP. Synthesis was always to be a minority choice, but there was a veritable tide of hate for some time, as if some people were intrinsically unable to comprehend that it could be a desirable option for some.

Detesting Synthesis is OK. Reviling those who like it is not.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Just finished playing Leviathan. Awesome DLC.

One thing though, I youtube'd the Catalyst's new dialogue. He says that the Leviathans had to be exterminated because they were the problem behind lesser races being wiped out by their own machines. I don't get that, however.

My best guess is that it's just more faulty logic from him, based on his flawed conclusion of the created always rebelling against their creators, and him seeing the relationship between the Leviathans and lesser races as that of creators/created. But that's obviously a stretch.

[Reptilian Rob]

FeriktheCerberus wrote...

I think the Leviahan DLC somehow encourages people to choose Destroy~

~but that just makes Synthesis a (more) tasteful and quality idea

All three choices have about as much taste as a turd sandwich.

Pick a war crime, any war crime. 

[DirtyPhoenix]

Reptilian Rob wrote...
All three choices have about as much taste as a turd sandwich.

Damn it.. I was eating a sandwich man, you just ruined it. Totally.

[Reptilian Rob]

pirate1802 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
All three choices have about as much taste as a turd sandwich.

Damn it.. I was eating a sandwich man, you just ruined it. Totally.

Sorry...

:C

[Reptilian Rob]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
All three choices have about as much taste as a turd sandwich.

Damn it.. I was eating a sandwich man, you just ruined it. Totally.

Sorry...

:C

OH, THE HUMANITY

HUMANITY FIRST!

[Reptilian Rob]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...
All three choices have about as much taste as a turd sandwich.

Damn it.. I was eating a sandwich man, you just ruined it. Totally.

Sorry...

:C

OH, THE HUMANITY

HUMANITY FIRST!

Not in this thread.

It's HUMANITY SYNTHESIZED WITH ROBOTS FIRST!

Oh lord, Cerberus is ****ting their pants right now...

I hate synthesis and control with more passion that Jack had for that **** in Titanic. But I don't hate the people that like it.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Reptilian Rob wrote...

FeriktheCerberus wrote...

I think the Leviahan DLC somehow encourages people to choose Destroy~

~but that just makes Synthesis a (more) tasteful and quality idea

All three choices have about as much taste as a turd sandwich.

Pick a war crime, any war crime. 

You should refer to the winningest post on this board...... I have it in my sig! :happy:

[Taboo]

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Absolutely.

I think Ieldra2 is a pretty cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything, but I'm not a fan of the ending he/(she? I don't know) likes.

Ieldra is a man. I've been giving him **** since this thread started all those months ago. 

He's afraid of vague comments though. I wish he'd send me PM's if he was curious but he never does.

You can do that you know. I respond to all PMs.

[Hrothdane]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Crossposting this thematic description of the ending options to prevent it from getting lost:

Ieldra2 wrote...
Philosophically, the differences in the endings are mainly these:

(1) Destroy affirms the human condition. It affirms karma. Wherever we go, be it into a bright future or into extinction, we do it as free people and sticking to what we are and have always been. Any future advancement will happen within these boundaries.
Destroy also affirms the organic template with its chaotic evolution as the original, "true" form of life. It is an implicitly pro-organic choice, even though most people choose it for other reasons.

(2) Control affirms an order that holds our nature in check. Survival is more important than freedom, at least for the foreseeable future. Sapient life is as children and needs to be guided to adulthood. Some freedom is denied until we've learned how to use it. Or forever, depending on your viewpoint.
Control is also a pro-Synthetic choice. Synthetic intelligence is the type that can guide us into the future and prevent us from destroying ourselves.

(3) Synthesis is embracing the unknown, radically stepping beyond the boundaries Destroy seeks to affirm. If we cannot make a bright future as we are, then we must change ourselves. "There are infinite possibilities, but not for Man" (quote from the top of OP). Synthesis affirms that transcending the human condition is the only way to truly grow and asserts there is a (non-Reaperized) ascended future which will remain forever beyond our comprehension if we stay as we are.

An interesting read. I like the more philosophical approach. That said, I would like to provide a counter-point, if I may.

The problem I see with viewing synthesis as the pure futurist position is that the trappings of the old ways still remain, albeit in a more benevolent form. With the Reapers sharing the secrets of lost ages, the people of the galaxy are once again are relying upon the knowledge and technology of old rather than learning and developing it on their own. The answers to life's questions remain in the past. There may be a new spirit of cooperation, but the Reapers and the huskified remains of family and friends stand as constant reminders of the past conflict. The technology to improve everyone's lives will be there, but will they be ready to use it? The situation reminds me of something Sartre said, "Everything has been figured out, except how to live."

To me--and I'm not expecting you to agree with me--destroying the Reapers gives a fresh start, free of the old constraints but with new perspective. With the repairing of the Citadel and Relay Network without the help of their creators, the young races of the galaxy can finally command the technology that once was a method of control. They can make that technology their own. The galaxy can self-determinate, just as Legion once said was the right of all sentient life. We can finally see exactly how far we can go in a galaxy without the Reapers or their AI. We have a chance to figure out how to live.

As a side-note, when I think of the synthesis ending, I usually end up thinking of Hegel's dialectic. He believed that all of history was a continuing process of movement between three processes, the common (and now accepted as not fully correct) translation being "thesis, antithesis, and synthesis." This process would lead to a single logical end in which contradictions would be "sublimated" into a new unity or whole. I would recommend anyone here giving some of Hegel a read because of the similarities to the ideas I see here, though I warn you it can be quite an endeavor.

I don't subscribe to Hegel's views myself. In fact, I find myself most closely aligned with his own "antithesis," the existential movement. This contradiction of views lies at heart of why I dislike the synthesis ending myself.

[Reptilian Rob]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Reptilian Rob wrote...

FeriktheCerberus wrote...

I think the Leviahan DLC somehow encourages people to choose Destroy~

~but that just makes Synthesis a (more) tasteful and quality idea

All three choices have about as much taste as a turd sandwich.

Pick a war crime, any war crime. 

You should refer to the winningest post on this board...... I have it in my sig! :happy:

There's always a line we have to cross...

It's just what line are you willing to cross?

[Reptilian Rob]

Taboo-XX wrote...

BringBackNihlus wrote...

Absolutely.

I think Ieldra2 is a pretty cool guy who doesn't afraid of anything, but I'm not a fan of the ending he/(she? I don't know) likes.

Ieldra is a man. I've been giving him **** since this thread started all those months ago. 

He's afraid of vague comments though. I wish he'd send me PM's if he was curious but he never does.

You can do that you know. I respond to all PMs.

I PMed you a marrige proposal a couple weeks back and you never answered.

Does this mean I'll never be happy?

[Taboo]

I never received any marriage proposal. I'd respond to you if you sent me one though.

I challenged Ieldra to a bout of fisticuffs once though. He never responded so I assumed he didn't care.

AS USUAL.