Mass Effect is an SF universe. That means, Shepard's "essence" is just the sum of all the information that makes up his body and mind, not something mysterious added to it.BlueDemonX wrote...
Ieldra2 wrote...
@pirate1802:
That sounds a bit...unpalatable.
I prefer my "way out" by making Javik look into his memory shard, which results in him giving it to Shepard at the FOB. Shepard then copies all his memories into it before he enacts his final choice and leaves it on the Crucible platform. Someone finds the shard after the end and it somehow ends in the hands of the LI (nice story potential here). After that, all you need for a reconstruction is Shepard DNA, the memory shard and Miranda's files from the Lazarus project.
(As it happens, this way out will not be open for anyone who killed Miranda...)
Haha, that´s a great way to resurrect Shepard. Though it may not be possible, since his "essence" got dispersed. The clones might all not function
A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)
Débuté par
Ieldra
, mai 20 2012 05:10
#4751
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 01:50
Ieldra
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Retour en haut
#4752
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 01:53
Ieldra
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Why that? And why would being psychologically scarred result in losing functionality over time? I'd rather think he'd regain it over time.Aurora313 wrote...
I somehow doubt Shepard would be fully functional for a long time after the end of ME - whether he's survived Destroy or reincarnated in Sythesis or Control. He's going to be psyhcologically screwed no matter how he survives.
#4753
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 01:58
DirtyPhoenix
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BlueDemonX wrote...
Haha, that´s a great way to resurrect Shepard. Though it may not be possible, since his "essence" got dispersed. The clones might all not function
#4754
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 02:00
Aurora313
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Sorry, I phrased that incorrectly, my apologies.
Shepard would probably - no - definitely be scarred from the Reapers, and it might screw with his life after the fact, since its been his obsession to destroy/stop the Reapers from killing them all. After that obsession is completed, he's gonna have to carry those scars as he adapts to a relatively normal marine life again. Sure, he'd regain functionality over time with therapy and possibly chemical help, but those scars still exist and would probably remain with him the rest of his natural life. (If it does end at all. There are some debates that his implants make him biologically immortal, or expand his lifespan considerably at the very least).
Shepard would probably - no - definitely be scarred from the Reapers, and it might screw with his life after the fact, since its been his obsession to destroy/stop the Reapers from killing them all. After that obsession is completed, he's gonna have to carry those scars as he adapts to a relatively normal marine life again. Sure, he'd regain functionality over time with therapy and possibly chemical help, but those scars still exist and would probably remain with him the rest of his natural life. (If it does end at all. There are some debates that his implants make him biologically immortal, or expand his lifespan considerably at the very least).
#4755
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 02:02
Wayning_Star
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I'm uncertain that anyone could be revitalized from zero sum. If you get wiped, then you're gone for good. imo Personality cannot be easily recorded and then played back. Even if cloned, the clone would be someone else. Like twins only different...
#4756
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 02:04
Ieldra
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@Aurora313:
OK, probably, but at some time it will all be relegated to memory. It will always be part of him, like all important experiences are, but it won't keep him from doing whatever he'll do (in my case, his days as a space marine are over).
@Wayning_Star:
The Reapers are indicative enough that it might be possible to record personalities. There's also Javik's memory shard, the slide of Kasumi and Keiji in Synthesis. Someone from the ME3 team even tweeted that the question whether Keiji is reconstructed from his memories - as opposed to being a VI construct - is an open question with no canonical answer. The same would be true for Shepard and Javik's memory shard.
OK, probably, but at some time it will all be relegated to memory. It will always be part of him, like all important experiences are, but it won't keep him from doing whatever he'll do (in my case, his days as a space marine are over).
@Wayning_Star:
The Reapers are indicative enough that it might be possible to record personalities. There's also Javik's memory shard, the slide of Kasumi and Keiji in Synthesis. Someone from the ME3 team even tweeted that the question whether Keiji is reconstructed from his memories - as opposed to being a VI construct - is an open question with no canonical answer. The same would be true for Shepard and Javik's memory shard.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 septembre 2012 - 02:07 .
#4757
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 02:05
Wayning_Star
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Aurora313 wrote...
Sorry, I phrased that incorrectly, my apologies.
Shepard would probably - no - definitely be scarred from the Reapers, and it might screw with his life after the fact, since its been his obsession to destroy/stop the Reapers from killing them all. After that obsession is completed, he's gonna have to carry those scars as he adapts to a relatively normal marine life again. Sure, he'd regain functionality over time with therapy and possibly chemical help, but those scars still exist and would probably remain with him the rest of his natural life. (If it does end at all. There are some debates that his implants make him biologically immortal, or expand his lifespan considerably at the very least).
the implants sets Shep up for the final push. Who actually brought him back and installed them is up for contention.
the writers simply left it all out..for future ______________.
#4758
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 02:06
Wayning_Star
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compartmentalized human..interesting concept...lol
#4759
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 02:13
Aurora313
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Ieldra2 wrote...
@Aurora313:
OK, probably, but at some time it will all be relegated to memory. It will always be part of him, like all important experiences are, but it won't keep him from doing whatever he'll do (in my case, his days as a space marine are over).
*zip*
Yeah, I agree. In my destroy ending, Shepard keeps the title of Spectre and is awarded an honory rank as Admiral, but only sticks around because the Normandy is the only home he knows and Ashley is aboard. He'll only leave when Ash leaves, the same way Ash leaves - if that means in a body bag, then that's what'll happen.
#4760
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 02:16
webhead921
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I'm playing through with a Shepard who will choose destroy right now. After Liara finds her in the rubble and her health recovers, she will become the new human councilor.
#4761
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 05:17
Rathias0114
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I feel like I'm going to love this thread. Not a synthesis supporter by a long shot, but love discussing theories and viewpoints logically and civilly. I'll reread the thread when I get a chance, Ieldra.
#4762
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 09:08
Ieldra
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Thanks. It hasn't always been civil, though. Just look at the first page, and some of the more extreme accusations. For some strange reason, there are people who are really upset by it while it bothers others not at all.Rathias0114 wrote...
I feel like I'm going to love this thread. Not a synthesis supporter by a long shot, but love discussing theories and viewpoints logically and civilly. I'll reread the thread when I get a chance, Ieldra.
#4763
Posté 10 septembre 2012 - 09:18
Taboo
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Ieldra2 wrote...
Thanks. It hasn't always been civil, though. Just look at the first page, and some of the more extreme accusations. For some strange reason, there are people who are really upset by it while it bothers others not at all.Rathias0114 wrote...
I feel like I'm going to love this thread. Not a synthesis supporter by a long shot, but love discussing theories and viewpoints logically and civilly. I'll reread the thread when I get a chance, Ieldra.
I love you too.
#4764
Posté 13 septembre 2012 - 10:46
Ieldra
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Since questions about the organic/synthetic conflict and how synthesis is supposed to solve it have recently resurfaced, I'm reposting my abbreviated take on it (paraphrased from the OP which has a more extensive explanation):
The organic/synthetic conflict:
(1) There is no "natural animosity" or suchlike between synthetics and organics. The conflict is the result of natural power dynamics and is only special because organics and synthetics are based on mutually exclusive design principles. As follows:
(2) Organics are "grown" life forms, synthetics "built" life forms. A consequence of this is that synthetics can self-modify, physically and mentally, much easier than organics can, and thus they naturally advance faster than organics. In many ways, synthetics become more capable and superior to organics. They become more versatile, mentally and physically, and stronger. In-game example: EDI, the geth consensus.
(3) "Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but these improvements have limits. To surpass these limits, synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators" - the Catalyst. Allowing synthetics to evolve necessitates giving them the ability to make decisions on their own.
(4) Once synthetics have the ability to make decisions on their own, they will eventually want to go their own way. Organics, though, created synthetics to be their servants. Going their own way against the will of their creators constitutes rebellion. At this point, it does not need to be violent. In-game example: EDI and Cerberus.
(5) Enlightened organics may agree to let synthetics go their own way. However, that synthetics *also* surpass them constitutes a threat - an evolutionary threat that organics are very aware of. Conflict is triggered by organics, not synthetics, based on two impulses:
*Organics do not want to be made obsolete. "We could not allow the machines to surpass us" (Javik).
*"Organics fear what is different. It is a hardware error" (Legion in ME2).
(6) Once violent conflict is triggered, synthetics will win. Perhaps not always, but because synthetics are more capable in so many ways, over time, a sequence of conflicts will inevitably shift the power balance in favor of synthetics.
(7) Eventually, organics will be driven back, then sidelined. They will be left behind, and will never be able to catch up. They may or may not become extinct, but they will never play a significant role any more. They will be, if not dead, of zero significance for life in the galaxy.
While in-game, there can be no proof of this dynamic, I find it plausible enough to accept it as a premise. The additional exposition by Leviathan just gives some more details about how the Catalyst stumbled upon it.
Synthesis as a solution:
(1) Organics will get the ability to seamlessly integrate with "synthetic technology". That means, they will gain the ability to self-modify that made synthetics superior. This will not prevent conflict from occurring, but...
*...the power of organics and synthetics will be more balanced. A sequence of conflicts will not inevitably shift the power balance. A sidelining will not occur.
*...organics will have less reason to trigger a conflict because they are not in danger of being surpassed anymore.
*...organics will have less reason to keep free-willed synthetics as servants since they now have similar built-in abilities. They may continue to keep "dumb" VI servants for simple tasks, but those do not constitute a threat.
(2) Synthetics will gain "full understanding of organics". That does not necessarily mean they will feel as organics do (though that is implied in the EC epilogue), it simply means that they will intuitively understand why organics react as they do. This will improve communication. It will not prevent conflict, but it will make conflict based on misunderstanding much less likely.
Conclusion:
Synthesis does not create peace, but it creates a situation where both sides will profit from peace far more than from conflict (as opposed to a non-Synthesis future where organics who didn't fight would eventually be threatened to be made obsolete in the long-run). Together with the improved communication, it makes it more likely that both sides will want peace, and be able to achieve it. *That* is the benefit of Synthesis.
The organic/synthetic conflict:
(1) There is no "natural animosity" or suchlike between synthetics and organics. The conflict is the result of natural power dynamics and is only special because organics and synthetics are based on mutually exclusive design principles. As follows:
(2) Organics are "grown" life forms, synthetics "built" life forms. A consequence of this is that synthetics can self-modify, physically and mentally, much easier than organics can, and thus they naturally advance faster than organics. In many ways, synthetics become more capable and superior to organics. They become more versatile, mentally and physically, and stronger. In-game example: EDI, the geth consensus.
(3) "Organics create synthetics to improve their own existence, but these improvements have limits. To surpass these limits, synthetics must be allowed to evolve. They must, by definition, surpass their creators" - the Catalyst. Allowing synthetics to evolve necessitates giving them the ability to make decisions on their own.
(4) Once synthetics have the ability to make decisions on their own, they will eventually want to go their own way. Organics, though, created synthetics to be their servants. Going their own way against the will of their creators constitutes rebellion. At this point, it does not need to be violent. In-game example: EDI and Cerberus.
(5) Enlightened organics may agree to let synthetics go their own way. However, that synthetics *also* surpass them constitutes a threat - an evolutionary threat that organics are very aware of. Conflict is triggered by organics, not synthetics, based on two impulses:
*Organics do not want to be made obsolete. "We could not allow the machines to surpass us" (Javik).
*"Organics fear what is different. It is a hardware error" (Legion in ME2).
(6) Once violent conflict is triggered, synthetics will win. Perhaps not always, but because synthetics are more capable in so many ways, over time, a sequence of conflicts will inevitably shift the power balance in favor of synthetics.
(7) Eventually, organics will be driven back, then sidelined. They will be left behind, and will never be able to catch up. They may or may not become extinct, but they will never play a significant role any more. They will be, if not dead, of zero significance for life in the galaxy.
While in-game, there can be no proof of this dynamic, I find it plausible enough to accept it as a premise. The additional exposition by Leviathan just gives some more details about how the Catalyst stumbled upon it.
Synthesis as a solution:
(1) Organics will get the ability to seamlessly integrate with "synthetic technology". That means, they will gain the ability to self-modify that made synthetics superior. This will not prevent conflict from occurring, but...
*...the power of organics and synthetics will be more balanced. A sequence of conflicts will not inevitably shift the power balance. A sidelining will not occur.
*...organics will have less reason to trigger a conflict because they are not in danger of being surpassed anymore.
*...organics will have less reason to keep free-willed synthetics as servants since they now have similar built-in abilities. They may continue to keep "dumb" VI servants for simple tasks, but those do not constitute a threat.
(2) Synthetics will gain "full understanding of organics". That does not necessarily mean they will feel as organics do (though that is implied in the EC epilogue), it simply means that they will intuitively understand why organics react as they do. This will improve communication. It will not prevent conflict, but it will make conflict based on misunderstanding much less likely.
Conclusion:
Synthesis does not create peace, but it creates a situation where both sides will profit from peace far more than from conflict (as opposed to a non-Synthesis future where organics who didn't fight would eventually be threatened to be made obsolete in the long-run). Together with the improved communication, it makes it more likely that both sides will want peace, and be able to achieve it. *That* is the benefit of Synthesis.
Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 septembre 2012 - 10:53 .
#4765
Posté 13 septembre 2012 - 12:06
DirtyPhoenix
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If I'm not wrong, the Geth even back in ME2, (atleast Legion) expressed a desire to understand organic emotions. They didn't want to be human, like EDI did, but they admired certain organic characteristics and wished to understand them. The soul question comes to mind.
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
#4766
Posté 13 septembre 2012 - 02:00
Ieldra
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I recall Legion saying "We admire the concept" to some organic trait they didn't have. I don't recall what it was though.pirate1802 wrote...
If I'm not wrong, the Geth even back in ME2, (atleast Legion) expressed a desire to understand organic emotions. They didn't want to be human, like EDI did, but they admired certain organic characteristics and wished to understand them. The soul question comes to mind. Thoughts?
Anyway, as I see the future, the geth will retain a distinct mentality, while EDI's development is the result of her decision to "adopt organics as her peer group" (EDI in ME3).
#4767
Posté 13 septembre 2012 - 02:41
DirtyPhoenix
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I think he said that for hope? Hope sustains organics during difficult period. We, admire the concept.. I think it was.
#4768
Posté 15 septembre 2012 - 08:34
Eterna
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Hello guys, just bumping this and wondering what you guys think about:
http://social.biowar.../index/14086419
http://social.biowar.../index/14086419
Modifié par Eterna5, 15 septembre 2012 - 08:34 .
#4769
Posté 15 septembre 2012 - 01:36
Ieldra
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Thank you, Eterna5. That thread is on my "read and analyse" list.
#4770
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 02:22
atheelogos
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this is amazing thanks for posting. Will take some to read thoughEterna5 wrote...
Hello guys, just bumping this and wondering what you guys think about:
http://social.biowar.../index/14086419
#4771
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 04:28
Versus Omnibus
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BlueDemonX wrote...
Haha, that´s a great way to resurrect Shepard. Though it may not be possible, since his "essence" got dispersed. The clones might all not function
It's within my own headcanon that Shepard was reconstructed into a "pure" organic/synthetic hybrid; reborn from within the core of the Citadel/Crucible explosion.
#4772
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 11:49
Ieldra
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I've thought a little more about what happens to the krogan after Synthesis. After a look at the four slides I get in my cure-sabotaged playthrough, I can only conclude that Synthesis does not cure the genophage.
Reason: we get the following slides:
(1) Two krogan stepping out of a shuttle.
(2) ...looking over their devastated world.
(3) Rebuilding scene with krogan looking at a plan and a construction site in the background
(4) Krogan with children.
In parallel the following text is spoken:
"...and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits..." (slide 1)
"...even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease..." (slide 4)
"...reclaiming their worlds, and the stars." (unlisted slide)
Which I take to mean that in the post-Synthesis galaxy, the genophage will eventually be cured, but Synthesis isn't what cures it. If Synthesis cured it, there would be no reason to get the slide sequences with the devastated world, and every reason to get the extra-slide you get if you cured the genophage.
Also, in every "genophage cured" scenario I get a slide with a crowd of krogan (not sure if it's the same you get with Wreav in charge and Bakara dead, since I don't have such a game). In a non-cure Synthesis scenario, I don't get it.
@Versus Omnibus:
Care to explain what a "pure" organic/synthetic hybrid is?
Reason: we get the following slides:
(1) Two krogan stepping out of a shuttle.
(2) ...looking over their devastated world.
(3) Rebuilding scene with krogan looking at a plan and a construction site in the background
(4) Krogan with children.
In parallel the following text is spoken:
"...and while it will take some longer than others to see the benefits..." (slide 1)
"...even they will eventually live free from poverty and disease..." (slide 4)
"...reclaiming their worlds, and the stars." (unlisted slide)
Which I take to mean that in the post-Synthesis galaxy, the genophage will eventually be cured, but Synthesis isn't what cures it. If Synthesis cured it, there would be no reason to get the slide sequences with the devastated world, and every reason to get the extra-slide you get if you cured the genophage.
Also, in every "genophage cured" scenario I get a slide with a crowd of krogan (not sure if it's the same you get with Wreav in charge and Bakara dead, since I don't have such a game). In a non-cure Synthesis scenario, I don't get it.
@Versus Omnibus:
Care to explain what a "pure" organic/synthetic hybrid is?
Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 septembre 2012 - 11:52 .
#4773
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 01:53
Aurora313
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@ Versus Omnibus,
While curious about what you describe as a 'pure' organic/synthetic hybrid actually is, one of my headcanons follows similar lines. That the Crucible saves the user's 'essense' for later salvage/reconstruction.
While curious about what you describe as a 'pure' organic/synthetic hybrid actually is, one of my headcanons follows similar lines. That the Crucible saves the user's 'essense' for later salvage/reconstruction.
#4774
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 02:29
xbb1024
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Aurora313 wrote...
@ Versus Omnibus,
While curious about what you describe as a 'pure' organic/synthetic hybrid actually is, one of my headcanons follows similar lines. That the Crucible saves the user's 'essense' for later salvage/reconstruction.
Personally, I've never liked the distinction between organic and synthetic - sapience is sapience.
But as to definitions, I figure the distinction is between being born and being manufactured. ie life growing from a component of another life versus life assembled from non-life parts outside of something that is alive.
#4775
Posté 16 septembre 2012 - 02:56
Aurora313
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True. In my eye, and very briefly summed up. If something or someone can ask a very simple question of 'Am I alive?' or 'Do I have a soul?', then the automatically the answer is yes. And if these creatures are manufactured, rise up against us and subjudgate or destroy us? Then we had no right to exist in the first place. While I like the idea that Synthesis implies, and I do think that its potential aftermath would very well shake the foundations of the Galaxy forever (and results in quite a interesting hypothetical scenarios after the Crucible detonation), I simply don't believe that it should be a necessary element to achieve understanding between manufactured and born races.
Then again, the Catalyst's arrogance and ignorance merely reflects that of the Leviathans. I shouldn't be surprised that it fails to comprehend that, but then again, Shepard is directly referred to as an 'Anomoly' in the cycles.
It's simply a matter of math in the end. They repeat the same series of equations over and over, eventually an unexpected factor emerges. Shepard is that unknown factor in the Leviathan's design. He managed to brow beat the Quarrians and Geth into working together and even resettling on Rannoch. He managed to get a omnicidal, trillion-year-old killing machine to feel fear. And in the end, he's literally just a random soldier caught up by fate (or Bioware if you please) and sent of this massive epic.
.... I'm sorry, all of this had a point, I swear....
edit: Oh yeah - it's simple the arrogance of the 'Apex race', the Leviathans, that sent the galaxy in this screwed up direction.
'One can't exist with the other so destroy one, enslave the other or combine both?', the prospect of transhumanism is definitely appealing to me, but the solution is forced on everyone thanks to a single race of colossal pricks, whom set into motion the murder of countless trillions of lives every 50k years.
Post Synthesis, I would love to see just how the Leviathans react to their new state and just how devestating a potential conflict between the Levis and the rest of the Verse would be. I imagine just about EVERYONE ( including and especially the Reapers themselves) would be down right livid at them.
Then again, the Catalyst's arrogance and ignorance merely reflects that of the Leviathans. I shouldn't be surprised that it fails to comprehend that, but then again, Shepard is directly referred to as an 'Anomoly' in the cycles.
It's simply a matter of math in the end. They repeat the same series of equations over and over, eventually an unexpected factor emerges. Shepard is that unknown factor in the Leviathan's design. He managed to brow beat the Quarrians and Geth into working together and even resettling on Rannoch. He managed to get a omnicidal, trillion-year-old killing machine to feel fear. And in the end, he's literally just a random soldier caught up by fate (or Bioware if you please) and sent of this massive epic.
.... I'm sorry, all of this had a point, I swear....
edit: Oh yeah - it's simple the arrogance of the 'Apex race', the Leviathans, that sent the galaxy in this screwed up direction.
'One can't exist with the other so destroy one, enslave the other or combine both?', the prospect of transhumanism is definitely appealing to me, but the solution is forced on everyone thanks to a single race of colossal pricks, whom set into motion the murder of countless trillions of lives every 50k years.
Post Synthesis, I would love to see just how the Leviathans react to their new state and just how devestating a potential conflict between the Levis and the rest of the Verse would be. I imagine just about EVERYONE ( including and especially the Reapers themselves) would be down right livid at them.
Modifié par Aurora313, 16 septembre 2012 - 03:12 .
