9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Argolas]

ATiBotka wrote...

Even if we build more synthetics, after synthesis they can't "surpass" us.

They can't surpass their creators.

Fact or headcanon? Proof please.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...

. No it destroys.  Every one is forced to become a hybrid.  This likely affects mental functions, they might be the same person, but they will not have the same mind.  And it is the Reapers who are the ones that enable this.  So everyone is implanted, without choice with reaper the h.

Everyone becoming a hybrid is one-time violation. After that, it's up to them how they live.

So you're wrong. Self-determination still takes place afterwards.

Also, the Reapers did not enable it. At all. It was the Crucible. Our creation.


Also, watch the EDI/Joker Synthesis scene and tell me you did not violate Joker's free-will/take his happiness away.

Synthesis may violate, but Destroy does too.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 27 septembre 2012 - 04:40 .

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. No it destroys.  Every one is forced to become a hybrid.  This likely affects mental functions, they might be the same person, but they will not have the same mind.  And it is the Reapers who are the ones that enable this.  So everyone is implanted, without choice with reaper the h.

Everyone becoming a hybrid is one-time violation. After that, it's up to them how they live.

So you're wrong. Self-determination still takes place afterwards.

Also, the Reapers did not enable it. At all. It was the Crucible. Our creation.
Also, watch the EDI/Joker Synthesis scene and tell me you did not violate Joker's free-will/take his happiness away.
Synthesis may violate, but Destroy does too.

. Synthesis originates from the Citadel, this is proven by the Catlyst's ability to turn off the beam, th only function that originates from the crucible entirely is destroy.  Synthesis needs the energy from the crucible to make itself or control viable.  The crucible itself is capable of destroying synthetic life by itself.  

[Xandurpein]

pirate1802 wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

Even if we build more synthetics, after synthesis they can't "surpass" us.

They can't surpass their creators.

Thats a good point, also yes, they will probably create simple VIs like Avina, harmless stuff.

That's what the Quarians thought too.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

Even if we build more synthetics, after synthesis they can't "surpass" us.

They can't surpass their creators.

Thats a good point, also yes, they will probably create simple VIs like Avina, harmless stuff.

That's what the Quarians thought too.

They continously tweaked the geth to be more capable, post synthesis organics won't be needing synthetics to do complex stuff. Also, unlike geth the said synthetics would never be able to surpass their masters.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...

. Synthesis originates from the Citadel, this is proven by the Catlyst's ability to turn off the beam, th only function that originates from the crucible entirely is destroy.  Synthesis needs the energy from the crucible to make itself or control viable.  The crucible itself is capable of destroying synthetic life by itself.  

Actually, the catalyst IS the beam, at the same time as he is the starchild.

Look at it again. The beam is the same color as he is, and we know the catalyst was needed to power up the Crucible.

... Which is why that beam also takes the color of both Destroy-red and Control-blue if you choose those options.

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

. Synthesis originates from the Citadel, this is proven by the Catlyst's ability to turn off the beam, th only function that originates from the crucible entirely is destroy.  Synthesis needs the energy from the crucible to make itself or control viable.  The crucible itself is capable of destroying synthetic life by itself.  

Actually, the catalyst IS the beam, at the same time as he is the starchild.

Look at it again. The beam is the same color as he is, and we know the catalyst was needed to power up the Crucible.

... Which is why that beam also takes the color of both Destroy-red and Control-blue if you choose those options.

. The Crucble needed the Catalyst to focus its energy, it could fire before it attached to the citadel

[Argolas]

pirate1802 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

ATiBotka wrote...

Even if we build more synthetics, after synthesis they can't "surpass" us.

They can't surpass their creators.

Thats a good point, also yes, they will probably create simple VIs like Avina, harmless stuff.

That's what the Quarians thought too.

They continously tweaked the geth to be more capable, post synthesis organics won't be needing synthetics to do complex stuff. Also, unlike geth the said synthetics would never be able to surpass their masters.

Quarians never needed the Geth either, they created them because they WANTED them.

And how are the new Synthetics different to the Geth? Why could they not surpass their masters?

[Xandurpein]

pirate1802 wrote...

Xandurpein wrote...

That's what the Quarians thought too.

They continously tweaked the geth to be more capable, post synthesis organics won't be needing synthetics to do complex stuff. Also, unlike geth the said synthetics would never be able to surpass their masters.

You are missing the point. A non-sapient AI is just a tool. We create tools either to do things we can't do without them or because we don't want to do them. There will always be a demand for advanced tools that can do complex but boring tasks without supervision, because it will free us to do other, more fulfilling things. The more capable we make them, the better they can fulfill that role. However, in the Mass Effect universe, the more capable the AI gets, the greater the risk is that it accidentally acquires sapience. That's the whole idea with the Geth, the Catalyst and so on. I don't see anything in Synthesis that changes that. 

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...
. The Crucble needed the Catalyst to focus its energy, it could fire before it attached to the citadel

My point stands. The catalyst was needed to activate the Crucible as desired.

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
. The Crucble needed the Catalyst to focus its energy, it could fire before it attached to the citadel

My point stands. The catalyst was needed to activate the Crucible as desired.

. The Crucible could fire by itself, destroy, combining with the citadel allows for control or synthesis because the Ctlyst put them there.  Thus control or Syntheis are options the Reapers chose.

[Argolas]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
. The Crucble needed the Catalyst to focus its energy, it could fire before it attached to the citadel

My point stands. The catalyst was needed to activate the Crucible as desired.

Yes, you are right, the catalyst is needed to fire the crucible. But the catalyst is the citadel, the AI is neither by definition a catalyst nor is it the catalyst for the crucible. The Protheans never knew about reaper kid, yet they knew of the catalyst and that is the citadel.

The red thing in the decision chamber is actually part of the citadel and not of the crucible, as is the  Control panel, the cabels proof that. The crucible is supposed to fire the moment it is docked to the citadel, but it doesn´t because reaper kid blocked it with the red power conduit. When Shepard chooses Control or Synthesis, the crucible´s function is modified by the beam or Control panel the catalyst prepared. When Shepard shoots the tube, the block is removed and the crucibles does what it is constructed to do.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Nope. It is the Crucible doing all three.

Destroy = shoot a Crucible compartment.
Control = Crucible control-panel.
Synthesis = Shepard added to Crucible via catalyst beam.

[Steelcan]

That picture is wrong. The part you destroy is on the Citadel. Look really closely at the Citadel tip and you will see that is to where you are. Besides the lift carries up up onto the Citadel exterior. It does not take you to the Crucible, this is seen in the cinematic. There is no way the lift carried you to the crucible.

The "nubbin" could have just fallen off the crucible off screen, or the developers got lazy and just left it out.

Modifié par Steelcan, 27 septembre 2012 - 06:00 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...

There is no way the lift carried you to the crucible.

Yeah it did.

It does not dock on top of where Shepard was sitting with Anderson.

It went above them, the walkway the player is raised to by the lift and has to walk to their decision.

The walk to the control unit wasn't a straightforward path.

The "nubbin" could have just fallen off the crucible off screen, or the developers got lazy and just left it out.

The nubbin unfolded to take that shape.

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
There is no way the lift carried you to the crucible.

Yeah it did.
It does not dock on top of where Shepard was sitting with Anderson.
It went above them, the walkway the player is raised to by the lift and has to walk to their decision.
The walk to the control unit wasn't a straightforward path.

The "nubbin" could have just fallen off the crucible off screen, or the developers got lazy and just left it out.

The nubbin unfolded to take that shape.

. It doesn't look to me like it's part of the Crucible.  How did it stay in place if it was not connected to the Crucible?  Why doesn't the lift go through spac.  It rises into place on the Citadel, then you walk on the Citadel to the options which are built into the Citadel

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
Though I'm curious, Ieldra: How do you view Synthesis and its possibilities now, in light of Leviathan?

The leviathans will want to restore their own empire if they can, galactic civilization will want to prevent it. Post-Synthesis, I think the knowledge about the leviathans and their history will become widespread, so that people will be aware of the danger and take precautions. It's likely that the leviathans will be connected to the Reapers as well so they'll gain their knowledge as well, but what can they do? Their best weapon was secrecy and that has been broken. Even assuming that the leviathans could use the new mindlinks to increase the range of their power (which I don't think they can since it's a completely different thing), there are several things that will make it impossible to exploit that:
(1) Those links only make sense if they can be deactivated, if only for the reaons that a permanent mindlink to a Reaper will drive most people insane.
(2) Synthesis only links to the Reapers, which means the leviathans can't exploit that link to control people at long range without the artifacts.
(3) They need several artifacts to control a Reaper and there is a limited supply of those. Also, there are only few leviathans left.
So yes, there is some danger but the strategic situation does not favor them. In their shoes, I would be very, very silent and not draw attention to myself.

Post-Control, things are even worse for them. Ascended-Shepard controls the Reapers and knows everything about the leviathans. They won't have a chance.

Post-Destroy, rebuilding will take a longer time than in the other scenarios, which will give the leviathans the time to create a power base unhindered by external interventions. Eventually, galactic civilization will take steps to ensure they won't become a danger, but they'll have had a few decades to consolidate.

So, as I see it Leviathan elevated Control significantly, had a balanced influence on Synthesis and made Destroy less appealing.

[Someone With Mass]

Considering that the animators have been so consistent with the details in the other games and in some parts of ME3 (that's sarcasm, in case you can't tell), I wouldn't use the pre-rendered cutscenes as any kind of proof.

[Ieldra]

Here is an excerpt of a discussion I've had with someone named CosmicGnosis about the endings and Synthesis. He can't post here for technical reasons, so I've asked him if I could re-post his stuff here and he agreed. Might be worth reading:

CosmicGnosis wrote...
Oh, I want to add something else. This is how I currently view the choices:

Destroy - Kill the gods.
Control - Become the gods.
Synthesis - Join the gods.

With this interpretation, along with the desire for self-determination as the reason for the synthetic rebellions, I think a larger theme is supported: Created vs. Creator. That is what this all really comes down to. This is about "greater" lifeforms dominating "lesser" lifeforms. This even applies to organic vs. organic conflicts. The Protheans uplifted the rachni, which created many problems. The salarians uplifted the krogan, and then inflicted the genophage on them. There is indeed a pattern of created vs. creator.

This actually applies to the Leviathans and the Catalyst. We ultimately owe our current existence to them. They created the current galactic context that allows us to exist. Who knows what might have happened if the Leviathans had never enslaved the galaxy? Who knows what might have happened if the Catalyst had not created an artificial galactic extinction cycle? Well, actually, we have some idea: We would have been Prothean slaves.

So when Shepard is standing before the Catalyst, he is, for all intents and purposes, standing before the god of the Milky Way. The god grants Shepard god-like power. Shepard has the power to change the entire galaxy. This is the most important moment in galactic history since the creation of the harvest cycle. It is truly worthy of legend and myth. The choice that Shepard makes is a statement about what he thinks about life, the universe, and everything.

Obviously, I'm not fond of Shepard replacing the gods. But Destroy and Synthesis are intriguing. Is it better to kill the gods and forge your own path, or is it better to join the gods and become their equals?

CosmicGnosis wrote...
I want to mention that I really hate the fact that I basically murder all synthetic life in the Destroy ending. I really don't know what to make of that. It could be argued that synthetic life is still validated because all future synthetics will be free of galactic overlords, but the current cycle hates them. I'm a lot more pessimistic about the geth and EDI being "honored in the coming empire". The choice also lumps me in with the anti-synthetic crowd, which I despise.

Here's one of my replies:

Ieldra2 wrote...
About Synthesis: it is not so much that life is broken and needs to be fixed, but rather that the prospects of organic life as it has existed so far are limited. We are limited in our understanding, and the idea is that to overcome those limits, we need to change ourselves. The quote at the top of the OP of my Synthesis thread is not randomly selected: "There are infinite possibilities, but not for Man". The novel it was taken from has this as a plot: evolved humans sets out to follow the instructions of an elder species on how to become gods. Insofar you are completely correct with describing Synthesis as "joining the gods". Or rather, giving people the prospect of doing so if they want. For that's the thing that makes Synthesis attractive to me: you aren't changed into something else that isn't you. Your biochemistry is changed to enable you to change yourself into something else, if you want. No doubt many won't want such ascension, but they aren't forced into it.

[...]

As for Destroy: it is thematically a pro-organic choice. It affirms the "human condition" and protects the freedom and integrity of organic life against the domination (Control) or intrusion (Synthesis) of synthetic life. You may not choose Destroy for that reason, but the death of the synthetics is thematically appropriate.
Control is the opposite - a pro-Synthetic choice. Survival is more important than freedom. Organic life is as children and will be guided along a path that ensures survival, until a time when the guardian judges it is no longer needed
Synthesis is the revolutionary's choice: transcend the old order and bring about a new age where the old conflicts between organics and synthetics are meaningless. Put civilization on the path to transapience.

And his last reply:

CosmicGnosis wrote...
I've considered the pro-organic theme of Destroy, the pro-synthetic theme of Control, and the pro-revolutionary theme of Synthesis. Using this model, Synthesis is obviously the best choice. I agree with that. It actually makes Synthesis the "balanced" choice.

However, I think that I must consider the fact that the Catalyst favors Synthesis. It's not that it's inherently bad, but it's that it makes complete sense as a "Reaper" solution. The Catalyst has no regard for the individual. It views "life" as a conceptual whole, not as individuals that make up a whole. It's like what Mordin says about the genophage: "I made a mistake! Focused on big picture. Big picture made of little pictures. Too many variables." Therefore, the Catalyst has no problem with altering every being in the galaxy. It's incapable of perceiving existence at our level. Granted, we are incapable of perceiving existence at the Catalyst's level, so that's something to consider. You can actually argue for Synthesis, in this case.

I would like to choose Synthesis, but there is a wall in my mind that haven't been able to demolish. Some would say that the wall shouldn't be destroyed. You would probably say that it should be. I know that most people are suspicious of Synthesis, but I think it's more intriguing to accept that Synthesis really is as great as it seems... and then reject it. I think that line of thinking leads to more fascinating philosophical dilemmas.

[Xilizhra]

Here's another thing I'm curious about: In the rationalist Renegade ethos, I thought avoiding greater risk and worst-case scenarios was the primary motivation for most actions, and that jumping in and hoping things would work out for the best is the "sillier" sort of Paragon action that you'd decry. What makes Synthesis different?

[DirtyPhoenix]

Xandurpein wrote...

You are missing the point. A non-sapient AI is just a tool. We create tools either to do things we can't do without them or because we don't want to do them. There will always be a demand for advanced tools that can do complex but boring tasks without supervision, because it will free us to do other, more fulfilling things. The more capable we make them, the better they can fulfill that role. However, in the Mass Effect universe, the more capable the AI gets, the greater the risk is that it accidentally acquires sapience. That's the whole idea with the Geth, the Catalyst and so on. I don't see anything in Synthesis that changes that. 

How it changes in Synthesis, is now organics themselves are more capable, so much of the motivation to create capable synthetics: To do things they themselves can't, is reduced.
We can't fly so we made aircrafts. If by some miracle we had the inherent power to fly we wouldn't have made aircrafts (maybe we would have still made them but not on the same abundance we see now).

[DirtyPhoenix]

Argolas wrote...

Quarians never needed the Geth either, they created them because they WANTED them.

And how are the new Synthetics different to the Geth? Why could they not surpass their masters?

Ofcourse they needed, to do manual labour. That is why anyone makes machines: to overcome their physical limitations.
The new synthetics would not be as much different as the new organics. The synthetics, the old ones, could surpass organics because while organics were tied down to follow the slow evolutionary process, synthetics could modify themselves overnight. It's what happened to the geth, they evolved faster than the quarians had anticipated and outpaced their masters. Now organics are fully integrated with synthetic technology, they can modify themselves like synthetics, so they will keep the pace up with synthetics in event of a conflict. Ieldra2 can explain this better.

[Wayning_Star]

Xilizhra wrote...

Here's another thing I'm curious about: In the rationalist Renegade ethos, I thought avoiding greater risk and worst-case scenarios was the primary motivation for most actions, and that jumping in and hoping things would work out for the best is the "sillier" sort of Paragon action that you'd decry. What makes Synthesis different?

Maybe Shep's seeing the visions from those pylons and then getting a cypher, changes the mindset. I've always thought of 'renegade' as latent paragons anyway..they fight the urge, but usually lose that battle.

Besides, it would seem synthesis kills all the angry birds with one idea.

[Wayning_Star]

pirate1802 wrote...

Argolas wrote...

Quarians never needed the Geth either, they created them because they WANTED them.

And how are the new Synthetics different to the Geth? Why could they not surpass their masters?

Ofcourse they needed, to do manual labour. That is why anyone makes machines: to overcome their physical limitations.
The new synthetics would not be as much different as the new organics. The synthetics, the old ones, could surpass organics because while organics were tied down to follow the slow evolutionary process, synthetics could modify themselves overnight. It's what happened to the geth, they evolved faster than the quarians had anticipated and outpaced their masters. Now organics are fully integrated with synthetic technology, they can modify themselves like synthetics, so they will keep the pace up with synthetics in event of a conflict. Ieldra2 can explain this better.

My only question there is: Why battle?  Some seem to think that's (strife) an inevitablilty, but synthesis(theres a ford in your future...) isn't.

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Though I'm curious, Ieldra: How do you view Synthesis and its possibilities now, in light of Leviathan?

The leviathans will want to restore their own empire if they can, galactic civilization will want to prevent it. Post-Synthesis, I think the knowledge about the leviathans and their history will become widespread, so that people will be aware of the danger and take precautions. It's likely that the leviathans will be connected to the Reapers as well so they'll gain their knowledge as well, but what can they do? Their best weapon was secrecy and that has been broken. Even assuming that the leviathans could use the new mindlinks to increase the range of their power (which I don't think they can since it's a completely different thing), there are several things that will make it impossible to exploit that:
(1) Those links only make sense if they can be deactivated, if only for the reaons that a permanent mindlink to a Reaper will drive most people insane.
(2) Synthesis only links to the Reapers, which means the leviathans can't exploit that link to control people at long range without the artifacts.
(3) They need several artifacts to control a Reaper and there is a limited supply of those. Also, there are only few leviathans left.
So yes, there is some danger but the strategic situation does not favor them. In their shoes, I would be very, very silent and not draw attention to myself.

Post-Control, things are even worse for them. Ascended-Shepard controls the Reapers and knows everything about the leviathans. They won't have a chance.

Post-Destroy, rebuilding will take a longer time than in the other scenarios, which will give the leviathans the time to create a power base unhindered by external interventions. Eventually, galactic civilization will take steps to ensure they won't become a danger, but they'll have had a few decades to consolidate.

So, as I see it Leviathan elevated Control significantly, had a balanced influence on Synthesis and made Destroy less appealing.

(2) Synthesis only links to the Reapers, which means the leviathans can't exploit that link to control people at long range without the artifacts.

I thought it linked to everything in the MEU. The Leviathan are part synthetic now and synthetic are part Leviathan..as are all things MEU?

note: synthesis isn't linked to the god, per se, as your other post pertains. It's linked to nature/space time.