9089 réponses à ce sujet

[The Twilight God]

Lord Aesir wrote...
]Yeah, I think AtiBotka was saying that that doesn't mean its the same thing happening in synthesis.

Then what does synthesis solve exactly? What's to stop organics from making more non-synthesized robots?

Glowing eyes and circuit skin isn't going to stop the creation of synthetics and it sure as hell isn't "perfecting" anyone. Joke still limps. The crates still require two people to lift. Synthetics still hold all the cards and if we aren't indoctrinated what's going to stop people from making more non-synthesized synthetics? Synthesis as shown, ignoring all other mitigating factors, cannot solve the supposed problme the Kid claims exists. I see no reason not to make a bunch of farmer droids in a post-synthesis world.

[Heimdall]

The Twilight God wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
]Yeah, I think AtiBotka was saying that that doesn't mean its the same thing happening in synthesis.

Then what does synthesis solve exactly? What's to stop organics from making more non-synthesized robots?

Glowing eyes and circuit skin isn't going to stop the creation of synthetics and it sure as hell isn't "perfecting" anyone. Joke still limps. The crates still require two people to lift. Synthetics still hold all the cards and if we aren't indoctrinated what's going to stop people from making more non-synthesized synthetics? Synthesis as shown, ignoring all other mitigating factors, cannot solve the supposed problme the Kid claims exists. I see no reason not to make a bunch of farmer droids in a post-synthesis world.

*Sigh*  What I said was that Synthesis was not Reaper control.

Synthesis changes beings fundamentally, blurs the boundary between man and machine on a mental level.  Organics now how a greater probability of empathizing with synthetics and vice versa.  So you may make those farmer droids,  but you will likely veiw them more as people than tools.

[Ieldra]

@Lord Aesir:
The description implies no mental change for organics. Organics get a physical change (integrating technology), synthetics a mental change (understanding of organics). Both serve to make them get closer to each other.

As for the main result, Synthetics will no longer advance so much faster that they'll come to a point that they view organics as inconsequential, since organics can now keep up through integrated technology. The eventual blurring of the line between both is a result of normal development, a stage that they couldn't have reached before not because they had been intrinsically unable, but because they would've wiped each other out before they ever got the change to get there.

So what Synthesis does is heavy acceleration of a normal development, in order to skip a period where both sides would very likely wipe each other out.

[ATiBotka]

The Twilight God wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
]Yeah, I think AtiBotka was saying that that doesn't mean its the same thing happening in synthesis.

Then what does synthesis solve exactly? What's to stop organics from making more non-synthesized robots?

Glowing eyes and circuit skin isn't going to stop the creation of synthetics and it sure as hell isn't "perfecting" anyone. Joke still limps. The crates still require two people to lift. Synthetics still hold all the cards and if we aren't indoctrinated what's going to stop people from making more non-synthesized synthetics? Synthesis as shown, ignoring all other mitigating factors, cannot solve the supposed problme the Kid claims exists. I see no reason not to make a bunch of farmer droids in a post-synthesis world.

If we create new synthetics, we can understand them. And they can't "surpass their creators".

[Xilizhra]

What sort of technology would Synthesis allow for the integration of, precisely? What upgrades would be likely to be attached?

[The Twilight God]

ATiBotka wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
]Yeah, I think AtiBotka was saying that that doesn't mean its the same thing happening in synthesis.

Then what does synthesis solve exactly? What's to stop organics from making more non-synthesized robots?

Glowing eyes and circuit skin isn't going to stop the creation of synthetics and it sure as hell isn't "perfecting" anyone. Joke still limps. The crates still require two people to lift. Synthetics still hold all the cards and if we aren't indoctrinated what's going to stop people from making more non-synthesized synthetics? Synthesis as shown, ignoring all other mitigating factors, cannot solve the supposed problme the Kid claims exists. I see no reason not to make a bunch of farmer droids in a post-synthesis world.

If we create new synthetics, we can understand them. And they can't "surpass their creators".

Of course they can surpass us. They are still superior in every way if all we got were some glowing eyes and circuit skin. They still hold all the advantages.

We can understand synthetic prior to synthesis. As much as we can understand any organic. Please stop regurgitating the Kid's meaningless dribble like a trained parrot. You don't even knwop what the heck it's talking about. What does being perfected by technology or synthetics having full understanding of organics even mean? Organics don't have full understanding of organics. Synthetics aren't perfect themselves. Seriously, step back and listen to yourself.

[The Twilight God]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
]Yeah, I think AtiBotka was saying that that doesn't mean its the same thing happening in synthesis.

Then what does synthesis solve exactly? What's to stop organics from making more non-synthesized robots?

Glowing eyes and circuit skin isn't going to stop the creation of synthetics and it sure as hell isn't "perfecting" anyone. Joke still limps. The crates still require two people to lift. Synthetics still hold all the cards and if we aren't indoctrinated what's going to stop people from making more non-synthesized synthetics? Synthesis as shown, ignoring all other mitigating factors, cannot solve the supposed problme the Kid claims exists. I see no reason not to make a bunch of farmer droids in a post-synthesis world.

*Sigh*  What I said was that Synthesis was not Reaper control.

Synthesis changes beings fundamentally, blurs the boundary between man and machine on a mental level.  Organics now how a greater probability of empathizing with synthetics and vice versa.  So you may make those farmer droids,  but you will likely veiw them more as people than tools.

That's a rash generalization toward organics vs synthetics. It has nothing to do with understanding. It's haves and have-nots. What great barrier existed between europeans and africans? And yet both being organic one dehumanized the other and was without empathy. It's so much that they couldn't understand each other. they didn't want to understand. I can only be rich if there was poor people. So I don;t want everyone to be equal to me. there must be a lower caste so that I can reap benefits from someone elses's misery. This is the reason organics had a problem with sentient machines. Who the heck is gonna provide the cheap labor if wwe acknowledge them? How can I feel special about being human and supposedly having a soul if this robot has a soul too? Unless synthesis removes human nature nothing has been solved. Glowing eyes and circuit skin aren't going to change anything.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 08 octobre 2012 - 06:34 .

[Ieldra]

Xilizhra wrote...
What sort of technology would Synthesis allow for the integration of, precisely? What upgrades would be likely to be attached?

I've always thought the only thing that would actually come with the Synthesis was a communication augmentation, something like the Rachni have in functionality or the geth. Of course you wouldn't be connected to anything all the time, you'd go insane.

[CosmicGnosis]

Hi guys. Ieldra already knows me, but I've never posted in this thread before.

So Synthesis... My biggest problem with it is that it affects every organism in the entire Milky Way. Well, there's Shepard's nonsense sacrifice as well, but that's a different topic.

So how do you think Synthesis affects biological evolution? Does it actually do anything to primitive organisms? What about pre-spaceflight life? What if the Synthesis beam had swept over Earth in, let's say, 1502 B.C.? Many would have been aware that something green had just hit them. If the green eyes and circuits are just artistic representations of invisible changes, would they have noticed anything different about themselves? Ultimately, what would humanity look like right now if we had been synthesized thousands of years ago?

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 10 octobre 2012 - 02:18 .

[Ieldra]

Nice to see you made it out into the open, CosmicGnosis

As for your question, the whole thing is confusing. At the bottom of the problem may be the comic book logic used by the lead writer. Sure, in common parlance "evolution" is understood in a similar way to "advancement", but even there the Catalyst's use of it is contradicted by the epilogue.

Synthesis cannot be the end of evolution. In the biological sense, life which is unable to self-change at will must continue to adapt or it will die out. In the cultural/technological sense, we see in the epilogue that Synthesis is not the end of things. Plainly, The fondness of the lead writer for his inevitabilities, finalities, perfections, eternities and infinities has all but ruined any serious discussion of the ending exposition. Strip the exposition of anything with the words "inevitable", "final" and "perfect" and we may start discussing things seriously. "Infinite" and "eternal" are nice catchwords for Control, but they, too, should not be taken literally. I *thought* all that goes without saying, but given how people are arguing I think I should point this out.

How does Synthesis affect primitive life forms? First, I'm not sure it was ever intended to come across that way. I suspect another artistic glitch, given that even in the EC, Garrus's armor shows circuit patterns. "All life" could've originally meant "intelligent organic and synthetic life". But now we are here, and I think the ending as it exists does indeed heavily imply that literally all life will be affected.

What exactly will happen to primitive civilizations is speculation, but I think the effect will be minor, since where there is no technology to integrate, there will be no technology integrated. Also, primitive life forms must continue to be able to adapt and evolve as usual without intervention, so I think there will be the interfaces for the integration of technology added but they'll remain unused until those life forms develop or find technology to integrate.

The big question mark lies in the statement "the civilizations preserved in their forms will be connected to all of us". Even before the EC, I have speculated that Synthesis adds the ability for mental communication to life forms above a certain level of intelligence. If that's true, the effects will be drastic for primitive civilizations, unless the activation of that ability depends on integration of certain technologies. It would of course have to be a switchable ability, since being forced into mental communication would drive people insane. There's no way to be sure about those details, but I'd welcome further speculation on the subject.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 10 octobre 2012 - 08:30 .

[Aurora313]

My main issue with Synthesis is also about the primative races. Its like giving cavemen a nuclear fisson. Although, what I would like to figure out is would the more primative races - (cavemen or equivalent) - gain instant intelligence, or would they contiune to evolve and the implants accelarate their capacity to learn?

I apologise if that makes no sense.

[RiouHotaru]

...To answer the IT guy's remark?

Shepard in ME2 and 3 only ever has two brief encounters with Reaper technology. Object Rho in Arrival (assuming you did the mission) and the Reaper IFF. Neither of which was exposed for long enough to result in full-blown indoctrination.

I'm amused that Twilight God is here considering his essay length dissertations on how Shepard has to be indoctrinated.

Anyway Ieldra, nice to see you're still keeping it civil in here. Honestly, if I wasn't quite as selfish about my FemShep and Garrus getting that beach-front property I would be ALL over Synthesis.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Because the other choices are totally right and moral?

[DirtyPhoenix]

And I think for the past two hundred pages we've been doing a little more than looking from a distance. Or maybe we are all naive to think so

[DirtyPhoenix]

And I can't understand how something can, at the same time be, wrong and immoral, and also a glorified disney ending. You'd think they would be poles apart.

[Taboo]

pirate1802 wrote...

And I can't understand how something can, at the same time be, wrong and immoral, and also a glorified disney ending. You'd think they would be poles apart.

I don't know there are quite a few RACIST Disney films out there.

[Aurora313]

So, becoming a literal immortal god with the most powerful force known to the galaxy at your heel is more moral and just, than initiating synthesis?

Or, taking away the meaning behind Legion's sacrifice and destroying entire races of intelligent life to stop just one, is?

Or simply refusing because you don't want to make a choice between the lesser of evils and sentence the entire galaxy as you know it, (and Shepard himself) to death for a pointless moral victory on the tiny chance that the next cycle may be able to defeat the Reapers? With every single possibility that the entire thing might start all over again a few trillion years down the line?

[Taboo]

Of of the things that stands out to me about the endings is that they don't rely on the emotional...bias that surrounds most of the other choices. There is no right or wrong answer.

They are all solutions and all have an ethically dubious aura about them. No Paragon bias. No Renegade...****-edness.

Destroy finishes the story how I want it to end but I'd never deny what Shepard does. The destruction caused is...problematic. As a film guy (Sorry Ieldra) the loss of the knowledge from the Reapers is...almost criminal. Not that I'm saying I need to sit down and record an audio-visual history for each Reaper but I think you get what I'm saying. I would hope that Phoenix can study them and learn a lot. I'd like Miranda and Shepard to get a hold of Harbinger.

In that regard, slighty OT Ieldra, how do you feel about drawing up concepts for our much lauded space station in the group?

[DirtyPhoenix]

What space station ??

[Taboo]

I developed a concept that people had been talking about for Shepard and Miranda post war. I called it Phoenix. It's essentially Cerberus without the LULZ factor. Shepard and Miranda can be together and still work.

When Ieldra and I aren't fighting (sorry mate) we can usually shoot ideas at one another and we usually get a lot done. This space station would be a HQ for Phoenix. The question is what it would be called, what would happen there and what it looked like.

I struggled for a long time with a name and the name that kept coming back up was Heliopolis. The place where the Phoenix rested in Mythology.

Ieldra was naming it something different but I can't remember what he said.

[Xilizhra]

So, becoming a literal immortal god with the most powerful force known to the galaxy at your heel is more moral and just, than initiating synthesis?

Well, nothing immoral has actually been done in that case. The potential for immorality would come from what you'd do with said powerful force, but it doesn't have to be immoral.

I developed a concept that people had been talking about for Shepard and
Miranda post war. I called it Phoenix. It's essentially Cerberus
without the LULZ factor. Shepard and Miranda can be together and still
work.

If it's based around human dominance, I'd still have to work against it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 10 octobre 2012 - 01:32 .

[Aurora313]

I usually call my head canon places/events by astrological names. 'Project: Aurora', 'Project: Borealis', 'Project: Orion' and so on.

I only tap on Mythos if I get really stretched for ideas. And even then, its old Norse and Viking Mythos. I guess it just appeals to me more...

[Taboo]

No it's based around human development. I had an interesting chat about this with another user the other night.

If you could balance out certain things you could do a lot of good. That is to say you can take the drive of Cerberus but apply a certain ethical level to it. That is to say children aren't going to be kidnapped and tortured for biotic improvements. Dead Reapers however, will be studied whether the Alliance likes it or not.

And those Leviathans need to be dealt with.

Miranda wanted to work with people as smart as she was, and she can do that now, except she can do it far better than she could in Cerberus. And Shepard can be there to help.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I would never create a human-focused project, either IC or OOC. OOC, I feel that ME3 is way, way too anthropocentric as it is, and ME2 is pretty bad in this regard as well. IC, I want to focus on the Spectre thing more than the Alliance thing, and help rebuild the galaxy as a whole (and since my ending as of now is Control...).