9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Sorry chicken, but there's no way in hell a synthetic and synthetic-sympathizer such as EDI chooses Destroy over Synthesis. No way!

For someone who so boldly claims to "risk non-functionality" to destroy the Reapers, she sure as was very apologetic for the geth, who did the complete opposite. She's not a fan if you sacrifice them, either. Also, she makes that claim at a time when none of us know the truth about the Reapers. She's repulsed by an impression she has of them that's ultimately wrong, given what we find out later.

That's what separates Synthesizers from (most) Destroyers, anyway. That new information makes a difference and changes our perspective at the end of the game. EDI, being the synthetic sympathizer she is, will easily choose to free them after finding out what she does from the catalyst. And you can prove that easily with her monologue for Synthesis: her opinion of the Reapers has changed.

There are very few ME squadmates I could see choosing anything but Destroy, but EDI is one of them.

. Who else?

[fiendishchicken]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Sorry chicken, but there's no way in hell a synthetic and synthetic-sympathizer such as EDI chooses Destroy over Synthesis. No way!

For someone who so boldly claims to "risk non-functionality" to destroy the Reapers, she sure as was very apologetic for the geth, who did the complete opposite. She's not a fan if you sacrifice them, either. Also, she makes that claim at a time when none of us know the truth about the Reapers. She's repulsed by an impression she has of them that's ultimately wrong, given what we find out later.

That's what separates Synthesizers from (most) Destroyers, anyway. That new information makes a difference and changes our perspective at the end of the game. EDI, being the synthetic sympathizer she is, will easily choose to free them after finding out what she does from the catalyst. And you can prove that easily with her monologue for Synthesis: her opinion of the Reapers has changed.

There are very few ME squadmates I could see choosing anything but Destroy, but EDI is one of them.

She'll also see that if the Reapers are truly controlled by the glowstick, then they aren't real sapient life. 

The impression she gets isn't wrong. What's right with "giant murderbots from space that seek only to destroy you and everything you know and love, but then suddenly they do it for some abstract purpose to prevent you from killing yourself by making creations that kill you." My perspective doesn't change at all. I can either kill myself by making machines that kill me, or get killed by machines that kill me so I don't kill myself by making machines that kill me.

The Geth have nothing to do with the Reapers motives. They sought self-preservation and the right to exist like anyone else. The Reapers sought the annihilation of all that wasn't them.

That's repulsive to me.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...

]. Who else?

Legion.

Modifié par pirate1802, 21 octobre 2012 - 05:13 .

[jtav]

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

[TuringPoint]

Am I the only one who thinks the revelations of Leviathan offer important insight into why the Reapers are what they are? The Reapers imitated their makers nicely.

[CosmicGnosis]

jtav wrote...

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

Yeah... I don't know what to do.

[His Name was HYR!!]

fiendishchicken wrote...

She'll also see that if the Reapers are truly controlled by the glowstick, then they aren't real sapient life.

Which is why I say, she'd free them.

The impression she gets isn't wrong. What's right with "giant murderbots from space that seek only to destroy you and everything you know and love, but then suddenly they do it for some abstract purpose to prevent you from killing yourself by making creations that kill you."

It is wrong. You don't hold unwilling assailants to the same level guilt as 1st-degree murderers. The former is the Reapers.

My perspective doesn't change at all. I can either kill myself by making machines that kill me, or get killed by machines that kill me so I don't kill myself by making machines that kill me.

That was obviously not foreseen by Leviathan. And I don't think anyone who can claim to reject the catalyst's logic can say that they should have known better.

The Geth have nothing to do with the Reapers motives. They sought self-preservation and the right to exist like anyone else. The Reapers sought the annihilation of all that wasn't them.

'Never said they did. But really, now, how can she so easily accept the geth doing the polar opposite of what she believes is right - choosing non-functionality over *ever* helping the Reapers?

Especially when she sees choosing self-preservation as being the same as the Reapers, who she believes are only interested in self-preservation (and that herself doing so would make her no better than them).

She's a synthetic-sympathizer. Plain and simple.

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

World War II was won by killing people.

You have to understand that sometimes violence and killing are the answer.

Kill a million to save a billion. 

Ethics don't always work the way you want them to in war. 

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

. Well if you are looking for a decision that respects other people's dignity synthesis is not the way to go, try refuse

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

. Well if you are looking for a decision that respects other people's dignity synthesis is not the way to go, try refuse

Respect everyone's dignity by getting them killed?

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...

.Who else?

I think it would be something like...

Ashley: Destroy.
Kaidan: takes too long to decide, Crucible burns out.
Garrus: Destroy.
Wrex: Destroy.
Tali: Destroy.
Liara: Control.
Jacob: Destroy.
Miranda: Destroy (ME2 personality would say Control, though).
Kasumi: Destroy (unless having the greybox makes her think a little).
Zaeed: Destroy.
Mordin: Synthesis.
Jack: Destroy.
Grunt: Destroy.
Thane: Synthesis.
Samara: Refuse.
Legion: Synthesis.
Javik: Destroy.
James: Destroy.

[Steelcan]

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

. Well if you are looking for a decision that respects other people's dignity synthesis is not the way to go, try refuse

Respect everyone's dignity by getting them killed?

. They go down fighting, no team kill for the geth.  No ones right to self determination is violated, they just happen to end up losing

Modifié par Steelcan, 21 octobre 2012 - 05:46 .

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
I think it would be something like..
Liara: Control.
Mordin: Synthesis
Thane: Synthesis.

. I disagree with these three.  I don't see Liara wanting control, especially after Thessia.  Mordin definitely not, he thinks the reapers are abominations and would likely see the geth as a necessary sacrifice.  Thane would probably choose destroy, see his dialogue when deciding the fate of the collector base.

[atheelogos]

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

No it isn't. The only reason Synthesis holds any attraction for me at all is that it sets the minds inside the Reapers free. They should never have been created, but they are here now and have a right to exist. The cycles were undertaken under the Catalyst's control. When freed of that control, they help.

. But are those minds worth saving? There is no in game evidence to suggest you can cure an indictrinated mind

How about the Synthesis epilogue.... you know where they help... smh

also there is no evidence to say Reapers are indoctrinated. U shouldn't compare the kind of control they're under to the kind of control a normal organic would be under. They are different than us. They're minds are literally beyond our ability to understand.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

. Well if you are looking for a decision that respects other people's dignity synthesis is not the way to go, try refuse

Respect everyone's dignity by getting them killed?

. They go down fighting, no team kill for the geth.  Nomone's right to self determination is violated, they just happen to end up losing

They lost because Shepard wussed out. At the most critical moment he couldn't make a tough choice because of that ends up getting everyone killed. And dead people don't have the right to self-determine.

[jtav]

Sometimes violence is necessary, but there are two non-violent solutions that stop the problem just as well. The moment EMS hits the mid-2k Destroy ceases to be a moral option because I have a reasonable hope that the war can be won with less loss of life.

[Steelcan]

atheelogos wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

No it isn't. The only reason Synthesis holds any attraction for me at all is that it sets the minds inside the Reapers free. They should never have been created, but they are here now and have a right to exist. The cycles were undertaken under the Catalyst's control. When freed of that control, they help.

. But are those minds worth saving? There is no in game evidence to suggest you can cure an indictrinated mind

How about the Synthesis epilogue.... you know where they help... smh

also there is no evidence to say Reapers are indoctrinated. U shouldn't compare the kind of control they're under to the kind of control a normal organic would be under. They are different than us. They're minds are literally beyond our ability to understand.

. Not according to Starbrat.  They are actually pretty simple.  The only reason isin synthesis they don't continue the cycle is because everybody has been "connected" to the reapers, no organics or synthetics, no organic or synthetic conflict

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

Sometimes violence is necessary, but there are two non-violent solutions that stop the problem just as well. The moment EMS hits the mid-2k Destroy ceases to be a moral option because I have a reasonable hope that the war can be won with less loss of life.

And I call the Reapers something that needs to be erased. Everything about them is an abomination. Kill them all I say. 

[Steelcan]

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...
And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

. Well if you are looking for a decision that respects other people's dignity synthesis is not the way to go, try refuse

Respect everyone's dignity by getting them killed?

. They go down fighting, no team kill for the geth.  Nomone's right to self determination is violated, they just happen to end up losing

They lost because Shepard wussed out. At the most critical moment he couldn't make a tough choice because of that ends up getting everyone killed. And dead people don't have the right to self-determine.

. But it's the only way to respect every species' rights.  I think it's completely stupid, just blow the damn machines up

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...
But it's the only way to respect every species' rights.  I think it's completely stupid, just blow the damn machines up

On the contrary, I think it is the only way to respect no species' rights. Every choice pisses on something or the other, there's no escaping that. Refusal ends up pissing on everything.

[fiendishchicken]

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

. Well if you are looking for a decision that respects other people's dignity synthesis is not the way to go, try refuse

Respect everyone's dignity by getting them killed?

. They go down fighting, no team kill for the geth.  Nomone's right to self determination is violated, they just happen to end up losing

They lost because Shepard wussed out. At the most critical moment he couldn't make a tough choice because of that ends up getting everyone killed. And dead people don't have the right to self-determine.

It's not a wuss out. Shepard believes that the catalyst will only try to appease it's own agenda. It's agenda has thus far only been capable of being a detriment to life. Anything and everything the catalyst says is garbage. The only thing worth listening to is destroy and Reapers, especially when they go together. But who's going to take that chance? This machine says you can end it all, with a catch. Refusers believe to accept to catalyst as anything but it's enemy. 

The reason it fails is because BW wants it too. Be it lore, or the Reapers' numbers, or whatever. BW wants you to bask in their arty glory.

[atheelogos]

fiendishchicken wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

World War II was won by killing people.

You have to understand that sometimes violence and killing are the answer.

Kill a million to save a billion. 

Ethics don't always work the way you want them to in war. 

Yes but only when there is no other option. With the ME3 endings your giving two other options that save more lives and redeem your former enemies in the process. How is that in any way not a good outcome?

Modifié par atheelogos, 21 octobre 2012 - 05:58 .

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

When she thought there was no other means to stop them. If she is alive--if the Reapers are alive--it's wrong to kill them when other means suffice for stopping them.

Slavery is better?

Violating the rights of everyone is better?

They are all horrible options.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...

I disagree with these three.  I don't see Liara wanting control, especially after Thessia.

It won't be because of her opinion of the Reapers, it will be because of the fact she defends every sentinet race's right to self-determinate. She says this after Rannoch if you sacrifice the geth. So she'd take Control to save them.

Also, she's the Shadow Broker. So power certainly doesn't scare her off.

Mordin definitely not, he thinks the reapers are abominations and would likely see the geth as a necessary sacrifice.

He supported rewriting the heretic geth rather than killing them: "kinder than killing, like genophage."

Same thing here, Synthesis saves the most people. A different spin on ruthless-calculus. Mordin is a creature of that.

Thane would probably choose destroy, see his dialogue when deciding the fate of the collector base.

He says he trusts Shepard, but not TIM, which is what concerns him above all else. He doesn't even believe a person and their body are one-in-the-same, so I don't see any morality issues there either.

Steelcan wrote...

. They go down fighting, no team kill for the geth.  Nomone's right to self determination is violated, they just happen to end up losing

When every species is fighting to live another day, sacrificing a whole race is simply a betrayal to that race. No way around that. It's why the krogan won't join the fight for Earth if Wrex learns you sabotaged the cure, no matter how critically important that battle is to the fate of the entire galaxy. It's not acceptable to the krogan, it's not for the geth either.

Not saying I wouldn't do it myself to save the rest of the galaxy, but you have to acknowledge it's a betrayal.

Also, Synthesis doesn't violate self-determination. You can still self-determinate after being synthesized. Similarly, Destroy doesn't take away self-determination (not for organics, anyway) by destroying technology people use either.

[Steelcan]

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
But it's the only way to respect every species' rights.  I think it's completely stupid, just blow the damn machines up

On the contrary, I think it is the only way to respect no species' rights. Every choice pisses on something or the other, there's no escaping that. Refusal ends up pissing on everything.

. But they die free and fighting