9089 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
But it's the only way to respect every species' rights.  I think it's completely stupid, just blow the damn machines up

On the contrary, I think it is the only way to respect no species' rights. Every choice pisses on something or the other, there's no escaping that. Refusal ends up pissing on everything.

. But they die free and fighting

I'm sure that's such a great consolation to someone seeing his family chopped down.

[fiendishchicken]

atheelogos wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

jtav wrote...

And I am very wary of any solution that says peace can best be achieved by killing people. I have to ask what the most ethical decision that respects everyone's dignity is. I'm undecided between Synthesis and Control, which is why I hang around here.

World War II was won by killing people.

You have to understand that sometimes violence and killing are the answer.

Kill a million to save a billion. 

Ethics don't always work the way you want them to in war. 

Yes but only when there is no other option. With the ME3 endings your giving two other options that save more lives and redeem your former enemies in the process. How is that in any way not a good outcome?

I'm not looking to redeem my enemies. I'm looking to destroy them. I want to reject the logic of the whole synthetic vs organic argument.

And I'm also looking to survive the fight. To stand triumphantly over the Reaper corpses myself and tell them that I defied them and chose my fate, as I always will.

[Bill Casey]

If I thought EDI would pick synthesis, I wouldn't feel bad about killing her...

[fiendishchicken]

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
But it's the only way to respect every species' rights.  I think it's completely stupid, just blow the damn machines up

On the contrary, I think it is the only way to respect no species' rights. Every choice pisses on something or the other, there's no escaping that. Refusal ends up pissing on everything.

. But they die free and fighting

I'm sure that's such a great consolation to someone seeing his family chopped down.

So the beings that chopped down your family that are now "magically" docile and everything is better because of it, is consolation?

In that scenario, destroy is the way to go.

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote.. 

When every species is fighting to live another day, sacrificing a whole race is simply a betrayal to that race. No way around that. It's why the krogan won't join the fight for Earth if Wrex learns you sabotaged the cure, no matter how critically important that battle is to the fate of the entire galaxy. It's not acceptable to the krogan, it's not for the geth either.

Not saying I wouldn't do it myself to save the rest of the galaxy, but you have to acknowledge it's a betrayal.

Also, Synthesis doesn't violate self-determination. You can still self-determinate after being synthesized. Similarly, Destroy doesn't take away self-determination (not for organics, anyway) by destroying technology people use either.

. Synthesis violates free will, rampantly.  Not a single person who is affected by synthesis has any say in whether it happens or not.  It takes the right to make your own future away from every sapient being.  The reapers are your future, they don't just give it to you.  As for Thane supporting synthesis, I'll go down to a maybe on that one.  I still don't see Liara picking control, or Mordin picking synthesis.  Mordin regrets the genophage, he makes that very clear.

[atheelogos]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

.Who else?

I think it would be something like...

Ashley: Destroy.
Kaidan: takes too long to decide, Crucible burns out.
Garrus: Destroy.
Wrex: Destroy.
Tali: Destroy.
Liara: Control.
Jacob: Destroy.
Miranda: Destroy (ME2 personality would say Control, though).
Kasumi: Destroy (unless having the greybox makes her think a little).
Zaeed: Destroy.
Mordin: Synthesis.
Jack: Destroy.
Grunt: Destroy.
Thane: Synthesis.
Samara: Refuse.
Legion: Synthesis.
Javik: Destroy.
James: Destroy.

"Kaidan: takes too long to decide, Crucible burns out." Actually I think he'd make a choice. If he was in love with shep he'd probably pick destroy so he could go back to her. If not I could see him picking the other two options if he was single.

Tali might pick control if you make peace with the Geth. It's not likely but I wouldn't say its impossible.

Miranda would probably pick Control for the same reason my renagade shep would. More power for humanity.

Mordin. Yeah I could see him doing that. lol always the scientist 

Samara would probably lean destroy. I mean come on she's never hesitated when it came to killing bad things before.

[Steelcan]

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
But it's the only way to respect every species' rights.  I think it's completely stupid, just blow the damn machines up

On the contrary, I think it is the only way to respect no species' rights. Every choice pisses on something or the other, there's no escaping that. Refusal ends up pissing on everything.

. But they die free and fighting

I'm sure that's such a great consolation to someone seeing his family chopped down.

.  Someone watching their family get killed is going to want destroy.  Not control, and definitely not synthesis

[DirtyPhoenix]

fiendishchicken wrote...

It's not a wuss out. Shepard believes that the catalyst will only try to appease it's own agenda. It's agenda has thus far only been capable of being a detriment to life. Anything and everything the catalyst says is garbage. The only thing worth listening to is destroy and Reapers, especially when they go together. But who's going to take that chance? This machine says you can end it all, with a catch. Refusers believe to accept to catalyst as anything but it's enemy. 

The reason it fails is because BW wants it too. Be it lore, or the Reapers' numbers, or whatever. BW wants you to bask in their arty glory.

Ofcourse it happens to be so because BW wants it to be. Why does any thin happen in MEU? Because BW wants it lol. But the thing is, Shepard is told multiple times conventional victory is not possible, and he sees how the war is rolling conventionally himself. If he still decides to bet the future of an entire galaxy on whatever meagre chances he thinks he has, then so be it I guess..

[jtav]

The goal should never be to destroy your enemy. The goal is to prevent your enemy from destroying you. You may--will--do things that lead to death, but the death is never the goal.

[Steelcan]

@Atheelogos. Miranda isn't part of Cerberus anymore, she actively opposes TIM(she also wants the collector base destroyed) I don't see her picking anything but destroy. Tali would lean more synthesis than control if the geth and quarians made peace, she would still probably pick destroy though. And Mordin, I see him picking destroy, maybe control, but certainly not synthesis

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

The goal should never be to destroy your enemy. The goal is to prevent your enemy from destroying you. You may--will--do things that lead to death, but the death is never the goal.

. Best way to protect yourself from your enemy is to kill said enemy.  That ends the problem then and there

[DirtyPhoenix]

fiendishchicken wrote...

So the beings that chopped down your family that are now "magically" docile and everything is better because of it, is consolation?

Sorry you lost me. I meant to imply, someone seeing his faily being killed because Shepard refused, isn't going to be much happy about the fact that they are going down "free and fighting."

[Steelcan]

pirate1802 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

So the beings that chopped down your family that are now "magically" docile and everything is better because of it, is consolation?

Sorry you lost me. I meant to imply, someone seeing his faily being killed because Shepard refused, isn't going to be much happy about the fact that they are going down "free and fighting."

. He also wouldn't be happy about being forcibly joined with everything else because someone millions of miles away didnt have the balls to kill the reapers

[fiendishchicken]

jtav wrote...

The goal should never be to destroy your enemy. The goal is to prevent your enemy from destroying you. You may--will--do things that lead to death, but the death is never the goal.

The best way to prevent your destruction is to destroy the other.

There are some enemies you can't negotiate with. I'm for diplomacy, when it works. But it's not going to cut it here.

It's them or us. I choose us every time, and hold no regrets or remorse over the consequences.

You would make such a great military officer.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:22 .

[Bill Casey]

atheelogos wrote...

Mordin. Yeah I could see him doing that. lol always the scientist 

Samara would probably lean destroy. I mean come on she's never hesitated when it came to killing bad things before.

Mordin: Protheans dead; collectors just final insult. *nasal inhale* Must be destroyed.

Samara: Treat them (Reapers) as any other enemy. Show no quarter, mercy or weakness.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:22 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...

He also wouldn't be happy about being forcibly joined with everything else because someone millions of miles away didnt have the balls to kill the reapers

Still happier than dead. He altleast lives to take revenge on the reapers.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...

Synthesis violates free will, rampantly.  Not a single person who is affected by synthesis has any say in whether it happens or not.

Agreed. But a one-time violation of consent is not permanently taking away free will.

BTW, Destroy and Control violate consent too, so the point is moot.

It takes the right to make your own future away from every sapient being.

They can make their own future.... after being synthesized.

Mordin regrets the genophage, he makes that very clear.

Yes, but Synthesis won't make any species go extinct.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:26 .

[darthnick427]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

.Who else?

I think it would be something like...

Ashley: Destroy.
Kaidan: takes too long to decide, Crucible burns out.
Garrus: Destroy.
Wrex: Destroy.
Tali: Destroy.
Liara: Control.
Jacob: Destroy.
Miranda: Destroy (ME2 personality would say Control, though).
Kasumi: Destroy (unless having the greybox makes her think a little).
Zaeed: Destroy.
Mordin: Synthesis.
Jack: Destroy.
Grunt: Destroy.
Thane: Synthesis.
Samara: Refuse.
Legion: Synthesis.
Javik: Destroy.
James: Destroy.

I agree with most but I'm gonna half to disagree with a few.

Mordin I think would pick either Destroy or Refuse mainly because his conversation about culture and the collectors in ME2 "No digestive system replaced by tech, No nervous system replace by tech, no soul replaced by tech. Whever they were, gone forever. Understand now?" I think there would be far too many variables to consider in synthesis and would pick destroy.

I think Liara might pick destroy if romancing Shepard but I could see control happening too if not.

Legion I think would refuse tbh. His response to the catalyst would most likely be: "You offer to give us our future. We will achieve our own future." but if he didn't pick refuse he'd pick Synthesis for sure.

Samara would pick destroy based off of this quote "Treat the reapers as you would any other enemy. Show them no mercy weakness or quarter."

I also think Thane would pick destroy as well mainly to ensure without a doubt that his son would get to live on.

Modifié par darthnick427, 21 octobre 2012 - 06:33 .

[Steelcan]

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

He also wouldn't be happy about being forcibly joined with everything else because someone millions of miles away didnt have the balls to kill the reapers

Still happier than dead. He altleast lives to take revenge on the reapers.

. How?

[DirtyPhoenix]

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

He also wouldn't be happy about being forcibly joined with everything else because someone millions of miles away didnt have the balls to kill the reapers

Still happier than dead. He altleast lives to take revenge on the reapers.

. How?

How what?

[ATiBotka]

Steelcan wrote...

He also wouldn't be happy about being forcibly joined with everything else because someone millions of miles away didnt have the balls to kill the reapers

I "have the balls" to kill them. If I chose Destroy, I don't regret it. I just like Synthesis better.

And I have the balls to change everyone's DNA in the galaxy.

[His Name was HYR!!]

atheelogos wrote...

"Kaidan: takes too long to decide, Crucible burns out." Actually I think he'd make a choice. If he was in love with shep he'd probably pick destroy so he could go back to her. If not I could see him picking the other two options if he was single.

Yeah I could see him choosing Control or Synthesis. But he's painfully indecisive, I think he'd second-guess the hell out of it and the clock would run out.

Talk to him after Jacob's mission, you'll see what I mean.

Tali might pick control if you make peace with the Geth. It's not likely but I wouldn't say its impossible.

No, she's a bit of a wuss. I don't see her feeling so strongly of Control or Synthesis to sacrifice herself for either.

Miranda would probably pick Control for the same reason my renagade shep would. More power for humanity.

I feel like she's softened up in ME3 though and would rather get the job done and go home. She's no longer in this for advancing humanity, I think the fight is for her sister now. In ME2, I could see her Control. But not anymore.

Samara would probably lean destroy. I mean come on she's never hesitated when it came to killing bad things before.

Samara didn't pursue Nihlus when an innocent's life was at risk. All options would be too immoral to her. So, Refuse.

[ATiBotka]

darthnick427 wrote...



Mordin I think would pick either Destroy or Refuse mainly because his conversation about culture and the collectors in ME2 "No digestive system replaced by tech, No nervous system replace by tech, no soul replaced by tech. Whever they were, gone forever. Understand now?" I think there would be far too many variables to consider in synthesis and would pick destroy.

But that's not what happen in Synthesis.

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
Synthesis violates free will, rampantly.  Not a single person who is affected by synthesis has any say in whether it happens or not.

Agreed. But a one-time violation of consent is not permanently taking away free will.
BTW, Destroy and Control violate consent too, so the point is moot.

It takes the right to make your own future away from every sapient being.

They can make their own future.... after being synthesized.

Mordin regrets the genophage, he makes that very clear

Yes, but Synthesis won't make any species go extinct.

. Everyone is filled with NANIDES, NANIDES cause indoctrination.  Indoctrination means no free wil.  And destroy only violates the Geth's consent, but seeing as how they were ready to die fighting anyways, no real difference.  And synthesis destroys diversity, something Mirdin argues passionately for.  

[Steelcan]

ATiBotka wrote...

darthnick427 wrote...



Mordin I think would pick either Destroy or Refuse mainly because his conversation about culture and the collectors in ME2 "No digestive system replaced by tech, No nervous system replace by tech, no soul replaced by tech. Whever they were, gone forever. Understand now?" I think there would be far too many variables to consider in synthesis and would pick destroy.

But that's not what happen in Synthesis.

. Every cell of every organism is infused with reaper technology.  Pretty similar to me