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[Steelcan]

That is very interesting to say the least.........

[JamieCOTC]

pirate1802 wrote...

Samtheman63 wrote...

so its a coincidence?

you cant be serious

bear
in mind the last thing harbringer tells shepard before me3 is "your
mind will be mine", and then when you finally do meet him in ME3, well,
you know what happens..

What I think is all those clues and thematic similarities were intended to be for an IT ending which never happened because EA rushed them. So they are not coincidence but not IT either.
Also, the epilogues.

And I'm dead serious <_<

Per the “Final Hours of ME3” Shepard was supposed to come under Reaper control and out of control of the player, but it was cut due to technical difficulties (couldn’t make Shepard talk w/out total player control).  That said, the ending (since the November leak) was essentially the same as what we got, though it was not nearly as ambiguous.  The original Catalyst (a Prothean) was cut due to time constraints.  What was planned was that the Catalyst died and Shepard became the new Catalyst, which in a very, VERY roundabout way, is what happened in ME3. In the end Shepard faced three choices, destroy the Reapers (the only choice in which Shepard survived), control the Reapers (in which Shepard would continue to search for a solution to the problem of organics vs synthetics) or “become one w/ the Reapers” (which later became synthesis and considered the best option by BW).

Due to the inclusion of MP BW went on the defense stating that it was possible to achieve the best ending in SP alone.  It wasn’t until so many players expressed their ire for the ending did BW change their tune and stated that “your ending was the best ending.” When the EMS was changed in the EC to enable Shepard to survive playing SP alone, Chris Priestly all but confirmered the breathe scene was an easter egg. 

Modifié par JamieCOTC, 21 octobre 2012 - 09:35 .

[Steelcan]

How is it an Easter egg? It's right there with all the other post decision slides.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 Bump. :happy:

[CosmicGnosis]

Do you think that Synthesis is the most cynical choice?

Note: If it is, that doesn't mean the cynicism is unjustified. It could actually be the most rational perspective, given the galaxy's circumstances.

[xsamplexample]

All past cycles were constrained by the reaper cycles. They keep us on certain 'paths' that stray us away from AI tech. under these limitations, theres no way a past cycles could conceive of such a device. however, there is one specie that exists on a massive scale: leviathans.

The Leviathans probably outlined plans for the original crucible for lesser species to make, to save themselves. the Leviathans then hid, cuz they dont really care. .

They created the crucible to have synthesis as the original function. It fits your theory; a safe, harvest-free synthesis in which all individuals keep their own form/minds.

[Ieldra]

xsamplexample wrote...
All past cycles were constrained by the reaper cycles. They keep us on certain 'paths' that stray us away from AI tech. under these limitations, theres no way a past cycles could conceive of such a device. however, there is one specie that exists on a massive scale: leviathans.

Keeping civilization away from AI tech was never the objective. If so, it failed in both cycles we know any details of (the Protheans' and ours). The objective was to keep civilization linked with the mass relays and specifically the Citadel in order to keep it observable and to know when to intervene.

The Crucible was developed by the sequence of civilizations. That scenario has obvious problems, such as "why did the past civilizations always discover the plans when it was already too late", or "why the hell didn't we explore that Prothean archive fully". But any other scenario runs into similar problems that make it all make even less sense, and with less evidence, so we might as well go with the story as told. 

The Leviathans probably outlined plans for the original crucible for lesser species to make, to save themselves. the Leviathans then hid, cuz they dont really care. .

They created the crucible to have synthesis as the original function. It fits your theory; a safe, harvest-free synthesis in which all individuals keep their own form/minds.

Neither does this make sense. They leviathans created the Catalyst because they were unable to come up with a solution. And if the Catalyst conceived of the Crucible, why have not its Reapers build it and wait until organics are "ready" for Synthesis?

No, the scenario told to us by the game - that a sequence of civilizations developed the Crucible - is still the least implausible one. In order to conceive of something like Synthesis, an advanced civilizations needs to...

(1) ...be aware of a possible risk of extinction caused by a technological singularity.
(2) ...find it desirable to eventually merge synthetic and organic intelligent life.
(3) ...find it desirable to preserve the legacy of past cycles.

See more about this in part I.3 of the OP: The origin of the Synthesis option.

[Ieldra]

Also, to clear up some persistent myths, here's an excerpt from the newest version of the game scripts leaked in November 2011 which details the endings. Comments by me, this is a crosspost from a thread I made long before the EC came out:

About itself and the organic/synthetic problem:
C: I was created eons ago to solve a problem.
C: To prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them.
(after Shepard says they'd rather keep their own form:
C: Organics will always trend to a point of technological singularity. A moment in time where their creations outgrow them.
C: Conflict is the only result, and extinction the consequence."

This gives a much clearer picture of the organic/synthetic problem from the viewpoint of the Catalyst.

About Destroy:
C: It's energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will succumb.
C: As will much the technology your kind rely on [possibly optional low EMS variant. Also note how "much" is replaced by "most" in the current version"].
C: Including the relays you depend upon. [no mention of this in the other endings]
S: But the Reapers will be dead?
C: Correct. But the probability of singularity occurring again in the future is certain.

About Control:
C: Harness the Crucible's energy. Use it to take control of the ones you call the Reapers.
S: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
C: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
S: What would happen to me?
C: You will become the catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.
S: And the Reapers will obey me?
C: Correct. [no ambiguity here, Shepard will continue to exist and the Reapers will obey]

About Synthesis:
C: You may combine the synthetic and the organic.
C: Add your energy, your essence, with that of Crucible. The resulting chain reaction will transform both of our kind.
C: We synthetics will become more like you, and organic life will become like us.
S: So we'll just... go on living, together?
C: It is a very elegant solution. And a path you have already started down. [Note how this points towards a symbiosis instead of a genetic rewrite-analogue]
C: The harvesting will cease. It will be a new ascension, for synthetic and organic life. [no utopian aspect]

I think the themes are very apparent here, in a much clearer way than in the original endings as published, and while the EC added considerable detail, it muddled the picture regarding Synthesis by refusing to remove the remaining nonsense, instead adding stuff that contradicted it.

[Aurora313]

Just found an awesome post-Synthesis story online called 'Radio Silence'. It's an M!Shenko with some wonderfully done illustrations in the first chapter so far.

Chapter one for those interested.

Modifié par Aurora313, 22 octobre 2012 - 09:47 .

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Do you think that Synthesis is the most cynical choice?

Note: If it is, that doesn't mean the cynicism is unjustified. It could actually be the most rational perspective, given the galaxy's circumstances.

. It could be seen as cynical, but I think it is supposed to be kind of like a leap of faith, control is an unknown, and destroy is a sure and sturdy end

[Ieldra]

Aurora313 wrote...

Just found an awesome post-Synthesis story online called 'Radio Silence'. It's an M!Shenko with some wonderfully done illustrations in the first chapter so far.

Chapter one for those interested.

Very interesting. Perhaps someone should make a fanfic thread in the group. I can't put all the stuff in the OP because I've reached the 64k post size limit. That's why I had to remove some parts from the old OP as I put SilentMobius interpretation in.

[atheelogos]

mass perfection wrote...

What does it mean by "The organics were not ready"?

People have to be ready to accept this leap in technological evolution. Those that say no to it(destroy people) aren't ready for the changes that Transhumanism and posthumanism would bring.

[atheelogos]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also, yeah, Shepard's sacrifice makes no sense in the context of the Synthesis and that's why I have compunction in making him come back. And yeah, Vitalism sucks. So what? It's bad writing using comic book-logic, that doesn't make the concept - and the ultimate outcome as shown in the epilogue - any less interesting.

. Vitalism is bad, but that isn't what makes synthesis bad to me.  I have other reasons for not liking it.

At this point, I'm rather more interested in discussing the details of the post-Synthesis galaxy.

Agreed.

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Also, to clear up some persistent myths, here's an excerpt from the newest version of the game scripts leaked in November 2011 which details the endings. Comments by me, this is a crosspost from a thread I made long before the EC came out:

About itself and the organic/synthetic problem:
C: I was created eons ago to solve a problem.
C: To prevent organics from creating an AI so powerful that it would overtake them and destroy them.
(after Shepard says they'd rather keep their own form:
C: Organics will always trend to a point of technological singularity. A moment in time where their creations outgrow them.
C: Conflict is the only result, and extinction the consequence."

This gives a much clearer picture of the organic/synthetic problem from the viewpoint of the Catalyst.

About Destroy:
C: It's energy can be released as a destructive force. Organics will prevail at our expense. All synthetic life will succumb.
C: As will much the technology your kind rely on [possibly optional low EMS variant. Also note how "much" is replaced by "most" in the current version"].
C: Including the relays you depend upon. [no mention of this in the other endings]
S: But the Reapers will be dead?
C: Correct. But the probability of singularity occurring again in the future is certain.

About Control:
C: Harness the Crucible's energy. Use it to take control of the ones you call the Reapers.
S: Control? So the Illusive Man was right.
C: Correct... though he could never have taken control, as we already controlled him.
S: What would happen to me?
C: You will become the catalyst. You will continue the cycle as you see fit.
S: And the Reapers will obey me?
C: Correct. [no ambiguity here, Shepard will continue to exist and the Reapers will obey]

About Synthesis:
C: You may combine the synthetic and the organic.
C: Add your energy, your essence, with that of Crucible. The resulting chain reaction will transform both of our kind.
C: We synthetics will become more like you, and organic life will become like us.
S: So we'll just... go on living, together?
C: It is a very elegant solution. And a path you have already started down. [Note how this points towards a symbiosis instead of a genetic rewrite-analogue]
C: The harvesting will cease. It will be a new ascension, for synthetic and organic life. [no utopian aspect]

I think the themes are very apparent here, in a much clearer way than in the original endings as published, and while the EC added considerable detail, it muddled the picture regarding Synthesis by refusing to remove the remaining nonsense, instead adding stuff that contradicted it.

This is fascinating. Shepard's question about Synthesis seems to strongly suggest that Synthesis really is less identity-changing than most believe. A change does happen, but it seems more... gentle in the leaked script than in the final product.

[Eterna]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Aurora313 wrote...

Just found an awesome post-Synthesis story online called 'Radio Silence'. It's an M!Shenko with some wonderfully done illustrations in the first chapter so far.

Chapter one for those interested.

Very interesting. Perhaps someone should make a fanfic thread in the group. I can't put all the stuff in the OP because I've reached the 64k post size limit. That's why I had to remove some parts from the old OP as I put SilentMobius interpretation in.

This is actually a good idea. We coud create a database of sorts with links to each of the links in the op. 

[CosmicGnosis]

What do you guys think the Catalyst means when he says that organics are ready for Synthesis, and that it can't be forced?

[Taboo]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

What do you guys think the Catalyst means when he says that organics are ready for Synthesis, and that it can't be forced?

They're ready because the galaxy was united.

Mind you the only reason they did that is because they had an exceptional person doing it. Without Shepard they wouldn't have done a damn thing.

In my opinion they're not ready in that capacity. They're just as selfish and reckless as before. They can earn Synthesis. They may use technology they have earned in Destroy.

Mordin would be proud.

[CosmicGnosis]

Taboo-XX wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

What do you guys think the Catalyst means when he says that organics are ready for Synthesis, and that it can't be forced?

They're ready because the galaxy was united.

Mind you the only reason they did that is because they had an exceptional person doing it. Without Shepard they wouldn't have done a damn thing.

In my opinion they're not ready in that capacity. They're just as selfish and reckless as before. They can earn Synthesis. They may use technology they have earned in Destroy.

Mordin would be proud.

And even if the Citadel civilization is ready, that doesn't mean that primitive civilizations are.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 23 octobre 2012 - 12:08 .

[atheelogos]

xsamplexample wrote...

All past cycles were constrained by the reaper cycles. They keep us on certain 'paths' that stray us away from AI tech. under these limitations, theres no way a past cycles could conceive of such a device. however, there is one specie that exists on a massive scale: leviathans.

The Leviathans probably outlined plans for the original crucible for lesser species to make, to save themselves. the Leviathans then hid, cuz they dont really care. .

They created the crucible to have synthesis as the original function. It fits your theory; a safe, harvest-free synthesis in which all individuals keep their own form/minds.

leviathans didn't create the crucible. The Catalyst says this when asked by Shep. Shep wanted to know who created them and the boy replied "you would not know them" He says this even if you have the single player dlc.

They didn't have anything to do it

[atheelogos]

Ieldra2 wrote...

xsamplexample wrote...
All past cycles were constrained by the reaper cycles. They keep us on certain 'paths' that stray us away from AI tech. under these limitations, theres no way a past cycles could conceive of such a device. however, there is one specie that exists on a massive scale: leviathans.

Keeping civilization away from AI tech was never the objective. If so, it failed in both cycles we know any details of (the Protheans' and ours). The objective was to keep civilization linked with the mass relays and specifically the Citadel in order to keep it observable and to know when to intervene.

The Crucible was developed by the sequence of civilizations. That scenario has obvious problems, such as "why did the past civilizations always discover the plans when it was already too late", or "why the hell didn't we explore that Prothean archive fully". But any other scenario runs into similar problems that make it all make even less sense, and with less evidence, so we might as well go with the story as told. 

The Leviathans probably outlined plans for the original crucible for lesser species to make, to save themselves. the Leviathans then hid, cuz they dont really care. .

They created the crucible to have synthesis as the original function. It fits your theory; a safe, harvest-free synthesis in which all individuals keep their own form/minds.

Neither does this make sense. They leviathans created the Catalyst because they were unable to come up with a solution. And if the Catalyst conceived of the Crucible, why have not its Reapers build it and wait until organics are "ready" for Synthesis?

No, the scenario told to us by the game - that a sequence of civilizations developed the Crucible - is still the least implausible one. In order to conceive of something like Synthesis, an advanced civilizations needs to...

(1) ...be aware of a possible risk of extinction caused by a technological singularity.
(2) ...find it desirable to eventually merge synthetic and organic intelligent life.
(3) ...find it desirable to preserve the legacy of past cycles.

See more about this in part I.3 of the OP: The origin of the Synthesis option.

"why the hell didn't we explore that Prothean archive fully" I don't have a problem with this. That network was new to us. It's not like we had the technology to explore it fully. Hell even the Asari haven't done that yet and they've been at it for over a thousand years. On top of that its not like they knew what to search for

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...
What do you guys think the Catalyst means when he says that organics are ready for Synthesis, and that it can't be forced?

They're ready because the galaxy was united.
Mind you the only reason they did that is because they had an exceptional person doing it. Without Shepard they wouldn't have done a damn thing.
In my opinion they're not ready in that capacity. They're just as selfish and reckless as before. They can earn Synthesis. They may use technology they have earned in Destroy.
Mordin would be proud.

And even if the Citadel civilization is ready, that doesn't mean that primitive civilizations are.

. What makes you think their opinion matters? It's all up to Shepard

[darthnick427]

Taboo-XX wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

What do you guys think the Catalyst means when he says that organics are ready for Synthesis, and that it can't be forced?

They're ready because the galaxy was united.

Mind you the only reason they did that is because they had an exceptional person doing it. Without Shepard they wouldn't have done a damn thing.

In my opinion they're not ready in that capacity. They're just as selfish and reckless as before. They can earn Synthesis. They may use technology they have earned in Destroy.

Mordin would be proud.

Exactly! High five!

[His Name was HYR!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

What do you guys think the Catalyst means when he says that organics are ready for Synthesis, and that it can't be forced?

They're ready because the galaxy was united.

I would say it's this, and...

In my opinion they're not ready in that capacity. They're just as selfish and reckless as before. They can earn Synthesis. They may use technology they have earned in Destroy.

I'd say they earned Synthesis as well. If they build a giant device capable of achieving it, well....

The obvious response would be "but we don't know enough about it to jump in." I disagree. We didn't know enough about the mass-relays - how they worked/ramifications behind using them - but we jumped in.

Sometimes you have to take that proverbial leap-of-faith to make things happen.

[His Name was HYR!!]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

And even if the Citadel civilization is ready, that doesn't mean that primitive civilizations are.

I don't think it'll do much anything to them. The purpose of the change is for organics to "integrate with technology."

If you don't have any real technology to speak of, you're just left with green eyes and tattoos.

If anything, I believe they'll advance faster as a result of the change.

[CosmicGnosis]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

What do you guys think the Catalyst means when he says that organics are ready for Synthesis, and that it can't be forced?

They're ready because the galaxy was united.

I would say it's this, and...

In my opinion they're not ready in that capacity. They're just as selfish and reckless as before. They can earn Synthesis. They may use technology they have earned in Destroy.

I'd say they earned Synthesis as well. If they build a giant device capable of achieving it, well....

The obvious response would be "but we don't know enough about it to jump in." I disagree. We didn't know enough about the mass-relays - how they worked/ramifications behind using them - but we jumped in.

Sometimes you have to take that proverbial leap-of-faith to make things happen.

You know, that's a great point. In fact, you can argue that humans initially knew less about the Charon Relay than Shepard does about Synthesis.