9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

@Taboo:
Of course not. Why do you think I phrased things as I did?

@Steelcan:
Indeed, but that should only mean that those ideas reflect back on their "founders", not the other way round. Ideas are never better or worse for their founders. They may acquire a bad reputation from them, but that reputation would be totally undeserved. Especially in science. Had the person who first thought of relativity be a N*zi supporter, would that make relativity any less true?

For that very reason, Synthesis is not better or worse just because we've seen Saren supporting something superficially similar, and Control is not better or worse because within the story, it's mostly supported by TIM. And even more to the point, Destroy is not better or worse just because it's supported by Anderson.

Edit:
Actually, the EC makes a very good point of this with its Paragon and Renegade versions of Control. Who implements the idea and what they do with it, that matters. The idea itself stands on its own.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 octobre 2012 - 02:42 .

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Steelcan:
Indeed, but that should only mean that those ideas reflect back on their "founders", not the other way round. Ideas are never better or worse for their founders. They may acquire a bad reputation from them, but that reputation would be totally undeserved. Especially in science. Had the person who first thought of relativity be a N*zi supporter, would that make relativity any less true?

For that very reason, Synthesis is not better or worse just because we've seen Saren supporting something superficially similar, and Control is not better or worse because within the story, it's mostly supported by TIM. And even more to the point, Destroy is not better or worse just because it's supported by Anderson.

Edit:
Actually, the EC makes a very good point of this with its Paragon and Renegade versions of Control. Who implements the idea and what they do with it, that matters. The idea itself stands on its own.

. In the context of the real world that holds true. But in the context of ME, Control is an idea that comes from the reapers via indoctrination.  And reaper ideas are a while new set of issues.  Control is valid, but TIM only knew that because the reapers told him.  Synthesis is no less valid because Saren supported it.  I think it is bad for a whole different set of reasons.

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Actually, the EC makes a very good point of this with its Paragon and Renegade versions of Control. Who implements the idea and what they do with it, that matters. The idea itself stands on its own.

Yes. In fact, the EC takes into account both your morality and the krogan situation (what you did with the genophage cure, and who the krogan leader is). Both determine Shepard's purpose for controlling the Reapers.

However, I'm very uncomfortable with Control. It seems to me that, no matter how benevolent Shepard may be, the presence of the Reapers will instill fear in everyone. That's the only way it can work. If the krogan start mobilizing for war, the Reapers will show up. If the krogan are intimidated enough, they will back down. If they fight back, they will be crushed.

That's it. And I really don't think that's a great future for the Milky Way. Ultimately, it's the Leviathans and the Catalyst all over again.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:05 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

However, I'm very uncomfortable with Control. It seems to me that, no matter how benevolent Shepard may be, the presence of the Reapers will instill fear in everyone. That's the only way it can work. If the krogan start mobilizing for war, the Reapers will show up. If the krogan are intimidated enough, they will back down. If they fight back, they will be crushed.

That's it. And I really don't think that's a great future for the Milky Way. Ultimately, it's the Leviathans and the Catalyst all over again.

And that is why I'm prepared to pay a bigger one-time price than leave behind a new catalyst who may do god knows what? The price may seem bigger compared to what control demands, but it is all the present and it is all there is, no ifs, buts and no uncertainty for the future. (note: I comparing synthesis and control only). That said, I still like control, its just not my first choice.

Modifié par pirate1802, 24 octobre 2012 - 05:37 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

@Steelcan: Are you saying that no sane person can possibly imagine controlling his enemies, or merging organics and synthetics unless they are indoctrinated?

[Steelcan]

pirate1802 wrote...

@Steelcan: Are you saying that no sane person can possibly imagine controlling his enemies, or merging organics and synthetics unless they are indoctrinated?

. When it comes to the reapers? Yes.

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...
But in the context of ME, Control is an idea that comes from the reapers via indoctrination.

No it isn't. It fits Jack Harper's character as of 2157 perfectly.

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
But in the context of ME, Control is an idea that comes from the reapers via indoctrination.

No it isn't. It fits Jack Harper's character as of 2157 perfectly.

.  And what happened to him? Oh yeah he was exposed to a reaper artifact.

[Ieldra]

It still doesn't matter. The source of an idea has no bearing on its validity. It may have a bearing on its practicality, and that's why people believed controlling the Reapers was an insane idea until it was revealed that it's possible. Once it it revealed to be possible, it became just another way to end the cycle.

And now can we please stop derailing this thread? You can believe anything connected to the Reapers is tainted, but that isn't rational.

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Actually, the EC makes a very good point of this with its Paragon and Renegade versions of Control. Who implements the idea and what they do with it, that matters. The idea itself stands on its own.

Yes. In fact, the EC takes into account both your morality and the krogan situation (what you did with the genophage cure, and who the krogan leader is). Both determine Shepard's purpose for controlling the Reapers.

However, I'm very uncomfortable with Control. It seems to me that, no matter how benevolent Shepard may be, the presence of the Reapers will instill fear in everyone. That's the only way it can work. If the krogan start mobilizing for war, the Reapers will show up. If the krogan are intimidated enough, they will back down. If they fight back, they will be crushed.

That's it. And I really don't think that's a great future for the Milky Way. Ultimately, it's the Leviathans and the Catalyst all over again.

It depends on how hands-on Shepard's role would be. I think it's possible that Control results in a good future, but I share your discomfort. It's a thematic discomfort - I simply don't think the galaxy is best served by being ruled by an AI god. 

That's why Synthesis is my preferred choice.

[ATiBotka]

Steelcan wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

@Steelcan: Are you saying that no sane person can possibly imagine controlling his enemies, or merging organics and synthetics unless they are indoctrinated?

. When it comes to the reapers? Yes.

Thank you!

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It still doesn't matter. The source of an idea has no bearing on its validity. It may have a bearing on its practicality, and that's why people believed controlling the Reapers was an insane idea until it was revealed that it's possible. Once it it revealed to be possible, it became just another way to end the cycle.

And now can we please stop derailing this thread? You can believe anything connected to the Reapers is tainted, but that isn't rational.

. Fair enough, I disagree with your assertion about the nature of ideas, but instead of continuing this pointless argument ill ask a question about synthesis.

How would the races of the galaxy deal with over population in a synthesized universe?  Synthesis keeps all the current races alive and even cures the genophage(interpreting here).  How will the galaxy deal with the populations of Rachni, Krogan, Geth, humans etc...?

[Ieldra]

I supposed you're referring to the hint at overcoming mortality? Synthesis doesn't cause that, it's a prospect for the far future. If it comes at all, civilization will grow into it. People will still die, because most would want longevity and having a choice about when to go, not really immortality. Technology will adapt people to so far hostile environments or terraform hostile planets. It will create artificial environments in space. It might be necessary to takes measures for population control, but in the end, most of the galaxy is empty, and there will be enough time for a new balance to develop.

About the genophage: it is implied that post-Synthesis civilization will eventually be "free from disease" but I don't see the genophage as a disease. It is a genetic modification that changed the krogan's physical nature. There is no "cure" in the strict sense, only a new modification. The krogan have a sustainable population with the genophage. It might be necessary for their cultural renewal that reproduction rates will be raised somewhat, but in an ultra-tech civilization like the post-Synthesis galaxy the old krogan reproduction rates will be counter-productive. I think the real issue is that the population control measure came from without. The krogan should've applied something like the genophage to themselves a long time ago. I have no idea what will happen to the krogan post-Synthesis but the other species will keep close watch on them. They're getting a second chance and should not waste it.

[Steelcan]

Wrex makes it clear in ME1 that the Krogan's population is not sustainable due to their culture and nihilistic tendencies.

Another question. Are the implants that all organics received able to be passed on? Did the modification extend to ALL cells, including very quickly reproducing ones such as sperm? In short will babies have glowing eyes and circuit boards ingrained at birth?

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

It depends on how hands-on Shepard's role would be. I think it's possible that Control results in a good future, but I share your discomfort. It's a thematic discomfort - I simply don't think the galaxy is best served by being ruled by an AI god. 

That's why Synthesis is my preferred choice.

And you prefer Control over Destroy?

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...
Wrex makes it clear in ME1 that the Krogan's population is not sustainable due to their culture and nihilistic tendencies.

...which nihilistic tendencies came to exist because another species interfered in their reproduction. Or so we're told. The whole thing makes little sense from my point of view, but yes, allowance would have to be made for their culture.

Another question. Are the implants that all organics received able to be passed on? Did the modification extend to ALL cells, including very quickly reproducing ones such as sperm? In short will babies have glowing eyes and circuit boards ingrained at birth?

There are no ingrained circuit boards, that's just an artistic representation of invisible changes. The same with the glowing eyes - even should they be real, those who don't want that effect will have it removed by genetic modification, and I suspect most won't want it. Anyway, the EC appears to imply that biochemistry is changed on the celluar level in order to make the integration of technology a natural process. The Synthesis process itself does not appear to implant anything.  

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It depends on how hands-on Shepard's role would be. I think it's possible that Control results in a good future, but I share your discomfort. It's a thematic discomfort - I simply don't think the galaxy is best served by being ruled by an AI god. 

That's why Synthesis is my preferred choice.

And you prefer Control over Destroy?

Yes. Again for thematic reasons. The total destruction of the enemy is not usually the way we end a war, and I reject the notion that the Reapers are "abominations", thus being invalid life forms and undeserving of any consideration we would give a normal enemy. There is also the thematic affirmation of the "human condition", which I also reject, as well as the implication that certain kinds of technology are best destroyed. And that's just the start of it. I can justify choosing Destroy with certain of my Shepards for roleplaying reasons, but I will never like that option. 

[CosmicGnosis]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

It depends on how hands-on Shepard's role would be. I think it's possible that Control results in a good future, but I share your discomfort. It's a thematic discomfort - I simply don't think the galaxy is best served by being ruled by an AI god. 

That's why Synthesis is my preferred choice.

And you prefer Control over Destroy?

Yes. Again for thematic reasons. The total destruction of the enemy is not usually the way we end a war, and I reject the notion that the Reapers are "abominations", thus being invalid life forms and undeserving of any consideration we would give a normal enemy. There is also the thematic affirmation of the "human condition", which I also reject, as well as the implication that certain kinds of technology are best destroyed. And that's just the start of it. I can justify choosing Destroy with certain of my Shepards for roleplaying reasons, but I will never like that option.

Your points make sense, but... I can't bring myself to prefer Control over Destroy. As awful as it sounds, I think I would rather sacrifice sapient species and liberate the galaxy than maintain a regime of galactic overlords.

[atheelogos]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

I think revealing that he actually was indoctrinated completely taints his perspective and all others that don't support Destroy.

No Synthesis  doesn't count seeing as he didn't even know about it.

[CosmicGnosis]

This human condition issue is a very interesting one. I believe its "flawed" in the sense that it can cause great harm to ourselves and others. However, it's not exactly "bad". Because our condition is a consequence of Nature, and Nature is amoral, there is no inherent good or bad in it.

I think it would be great if we could change certain aspects of ourselves. However, I don't think that change should be forced by a single individual. Megalomania and arrogance are, unfortunately, some characteristics of the human condition. I also worry that a rejection of the human condition ultimately leads to self-hate or a disconnect from reality. Maybe that's why Synthesis feels so weird.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 25 octobre 2012 - 02:07 .

[Seival]

Just finished some Control and Synthesis banners... Three parts of combined banner in fact.

Do you like them?

Is it easy to find the links to Control and Synthesis support threads in the signature?

[rekn2]

i like the idea of synthesis its just in the narrative of the games it was shown as being bad, like saren, proj overlord etc.

i can understand why the majority dont like synthesis, from the onset of the series it have negative stigmas.

[Ieldra]

I'm just reading a novel which features a setting much like I envision the post-Synthesis future of the ME universe. "The Fractal Prince" by Hannu Rajaniemi. Here's a review. Its predecessor "The Quantum Thief" also qualifies.

It's a future where people create forks of themselves to be in several places at once. Where they hide away part of their memory because the only way to keep secrets out of certain others' hands is to forget about them. Where the accidentally intelligent result of a nanotech disaster speaks to you in a dream-like induced trance. Where people acquire new traits as easily as we buy food, and where the use of elaborate passwords to unlock augmentations makes some things feel like magic to those who don't know better.
And where, last but not least, it's never totally clear whether the bodies of people are "artificial" or not because they clearly don't care about the distinction.

[CosmicGnosis]

The blind hatred that consumes this forum is incredible. I don't know what to say. Where's Taboo? He's the most logical Destroyer here.

[jtav]

I'm reluctantly returning to the fold. I'm suspicious at best of the transhumanist element, but Synthesis seems to be the option that most upholds respect for life and dignity.