9089 réponses à ce sujet

[ghost9191]

yeah agree, synthesis just seems like the end all ending. ascending is all well and good but i think we could achieve that on our own , on our own terms . and don't like the whole forcing it on everything . not everyone can be ready ,

and something about advancing culture before their ready is bad

[xAmilli0n]

Steelcan wrote...

I don't agree that Destroy is any lessinteresting than the others.  In destroy we have to do things ourselves, the reapers aren't there to take care of us.  We have to overcome all the challenges, Krogan population, synthetic rebellions possibly, Rachni if you spared them.  I see it as a much more exciting future.

Not really my discussion, but I thought I'd just make a quick comment.  There is nothing to say that the Control Reapers (and I guess that could be true for Synthesis Reapers too) wouldn't leave after some time, leaving the civilization to survive on their own.  In Paragon Control, Shepalyst says she will protect the many.  It is possible that at a give point, she realizes she doing more harm by staying and decides to leave for good.

Point being, needing to overcome challenges without the help of eternal mechanical gods is still a possibility even outside of destory.

[fiendishchicken]

Anyone ever see that episode of Dr. Who where the Doctor frees all those beings who were trapped living as machines, and when they come back to life, he subsequently kills them all?

The civilizations inside the Reapers are gone. They're dead. Why would anyone want to even exist like that? It is much better to destroy them than leave them in such a disgusting existence.

Plus the whole ascension thing is just unappealing to me, not until we are ready, not until we have earned it on our own. It may never happen, and I'm fine with that.

[jtav]

Because I will not decide for anyone that their existence is intolerable. And at least some of them don't appear to find it intolerable. We see them in the epilogue.

[ghost9191]

but you will decide to force a change on everything and everyone against their will,. saying that their existence is wrong and needs to be changed. kinda seems wrong but ok

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I've been watching some of Legion's on-mission banter on YouTube, and I think it makes a case for why Synthesis is necessary. He has a kind of innocent sociopathy for lack of a better phrase. Instead of expressing horror that children were tortured (even Zaeed sounds sick) on Jack's LM, he simply says the facilities are inadequate. On Jacob's LM, he says anger increases the creativity of organics and says it would be interesting to watch. That sort of lack of empathy could swiftly become problematic.

Interesting. I've never taken Legion there for obvious reasons, except in one game I hacked to disable the countdown for the crew abduction after Reaper IFF, and that was a long time ago.

It is strange how the story of the ME games sends conflicting messages. In ME3, we see EDI's character development which might suggest Synthesis isn't necessary. Bioware and its damned lack of advance planning...

[jtav]

Synthesis doesn't actually cause harm and I view the genetic rewrite as an acceptable side effect of freeing the Reapers and giving us access to their knowledge.

[Ieldra]

ghost9191 wrote...
but you will decide to force a change on everything and everyone against their will,. saying that their existence is wrong and needs to be changed. kinda seems wrong but ok

You change what they are, not who they are. That's implied in the epilogue. And not because you think their existence is wrong. The plain fact is that having more options should be a good thing. If you don't like them, you can ignore them. It's a small price to pay for all the other benefits. Still, admittedly it's not a decision I would make under any other circumstances.

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

Synthesis doesn't actually cause harm and I view the genetic rewrite as an acceptable side effect of freeing the Reapers and giving us access to their knowledge.

. And a lot of us see destroying the reapers and geth as acceptable to get peace.

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

Synthesis doesn't actually cause harm and I view the genetic rewrite as an acceptable side effect of freeing the Reapers and giving us access to their knowledge.

. But really how different could the knowledge of the other cycles be?  The couldn't have been much more advanced than the current cycle

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...
I don't agree that Destroy is any lessinteresting than the others.  In destroy we have to do things ourselves, the reapers aren't there to take care of us.  We have to overcome all the challenges, Krogan population, synthetic rebellions possibly, Rachni if you spared them.  I see it as a much more exciting future.

Yes, but those are "standard" problems of the kind that has always existed. I'd rather see those solved and be presented with a new challenge. Synthesis will bring new wonders....and new horrors. We'll also face the challenge of integrating the legacy of past cycles.

@Steelcan:
It's not just technology. It's culture. Cultural melting pots bring a kind of creativity you'll see nowhere else, and that will result in technological advances as well, simply because of how the different ways of thinking encounter each other. There's also the technological knowledge bound up in the Reapers themselves, of which they would know.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 octobre 2012 - 04:12 .

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Interesting. I've never taken Legion there for obvious reasons, except in one game I hacked to disable the countdown for the crew abduction after Reaper IFF, and that was a long time ago.

It is strange how the story of the ME games sends conflicting messages. In ME3, we see EDI's character development which might suggest Synthesis isn't necessary. Bioware and its damned lack of advance planning...

Might we speculate that, ironically, a combination of Reaper code and being unshackled are required for an AI to undergo emotional development? Unmodified, an AI will lack empathy, though it may not be actively malicious. The Catalyst is the ultimate unmodified AI.

[ghost9191]

just meant a change, not that it changes who they are but as you said what they are. that was mainly in response to jtavs not wanting to decide the fate of the reapers, which you do in any option , so he or she would rather choose the fate of everything else

and to me there is too many unknowns with the reapers. too much of a risk. i get preserving the species and all , but they are not what they once were , they are just reapers, genocidal machines that have killed and harvested countless ppl. they are what they are , no gurantee synthesis would change that

i get the option and what not but like the idea of achieving that future on our own , learning for ourselves and what not rather then taking the shortcut. isn't it one thing to know something but another to understand it. or something like that.

as i said, synthesis just seems like the end all choice. but it can't be perfect there is no such thing

Modifié par ghost9191, 30 octobre 2012 - 04:17 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

A Bethesda Fan wrote...

I believe like Saren they think they know why they do the things they do.
They do not.

And you do?

fiendishchicken wrote...

The civilizations inside the
Reapers are gone. They're dead. Why would anyone want to even exist like
that? It is much better to destroy them than leave them in such a
disgusting existence.

Maybe. If they find their
existance horrible they can always kill themselves. I'd like to give
them a chance rather than comdemning them all as too horrible to live.

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
I don't agree that Destroy is any lessinteresting than the others.  In destroy we have to do things ourselves, the reapers aren't there to take care of us.  We have to overcome all the challenges, Krogan population, synthetic rebellions possibly, Rachni if you spared them.  I see it as a much more exciting future.

Yes, but those are "standard" problems of the kind that has always existed. I'd rather see those solved and be presented with a new challenge. Synthesis will bring new wonders....and new horrors. We'll also face the challenge of integrating the legacy of past cycles.

@Steelcan:
It's not just technology. It's culture. Cultural melting pots bring a kind of creativity you'll see nowhere else, and that will result in technological advances as well, simply because of how the different ways of thinking encounter each other. There's also the technological knowledge bound up in the Reapers themselves, of which they would know.

. What kind of "horrors " do you anticipate?  Besides, those "standard" problems are still very interesting to me, trying to find a solution to ever evolving issues.  As for the technology and culture, yeah I can see the culture issue being important but the tech, even reaper tech, isn't all that exciting.  Reaper tech can be examined, after they are dead

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Interesting. I've never taken Legion there for obvious reasons, except in one game I hacked to disable the countdown for the crew abduction after Reaper IFF, and that was a long time ago.

It is strange how the story of the ME games sends conflicting messages. In ME3, we see EDI's character development which might suggest Synthesis isn't necessary. Bioware and its damned lack of advance planning...

Might we speculate that, ironically, a combination of Reaper code and being unshackled are required for an AI to undergo emotional development? Unmodified, an AI will lack empathy, though it may not be actively malicious. The Catalyst is the ultimate unmodified AI.

I've always found it deeply ironic that the Reaper code gave the geth individuality. It's why I'm saying that the Reapers don't represent "abomination" so much as an existential beyond we have no understanding of yet, with all the good and the bad parts. We don't understand the roots of our individuality, but the Reapers do. It's one reason why their knowledge is worth preserving. We don't understand an existence as a complex of conjoined minds, but the Reapers do, and whether we want it or not, the knowledge is worth having. So, if we can turn them from their harvesting ways, we'll benefit from it.

And yes, I agree about the Catalyst.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 octobre 2012 - 04:36 .

[jtav]

And the Reapers cannot themselves understand things like love, duty, and self-sacrifice. They make no distinction between preserving something and allowing it to flourish. They need the knowledge we can offer as much as we need theirs. Shepard provides the bridge.

[Taboo]

jtav wrote...

Synthesis doesn't actually cause harm and I view the genetic rewrite as an acceptable side effect of freeing the Reapers and giving us access to their knowledge.

With literal magic. You'll excuse me if the aesthetics of that make me not want to choose Synthesis.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
And the Reapers cannot themselves understand things like love, duty, and self-sacrifice. They make no distinction between preserving something and allowing it to flourish. They need the knowledge we can offer as much as we need theirs. Shepard provides the bridge.

Actually, it's the Catalyst who doesn't make that distinction. Since the Catalyst mind-controls the Reapers, their limits remain unclear, especially since they're uploaded and conjoined minds. But your picture makes for a nice balance. If the Reapers are synthetics - and I've always postulated that they are synthetics by the virtue of being constructs - then they may have lost something in their creation, and have the same limits as other synthetics. Synthesis will give it back.

[ghost9191]

"if that is the end we are trying to achieve then so be it , but we should all be allowed to get there or not by our own freewill"

10 internet points to whoever knows that

that is to the ascended part

as for the knowlegde. who knows what is left of the prior species. seems they just preserved their genetic material , not their knowledge and culture. all the reapers know is the harvest, that is what they were programed for , what more is there to learn from them,. besides tech

i guess i just don't see the reapers as sympathetic, simply a enemy that has killed countless billions during the current cycle and who knows how many more in the ME universe

Modifié par ghost9191, 30 octobre 2012 - 05:02 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

ghost9191 wrote...

as for the knowlegde. who knows what is left of the prior species. seems they just preserved their genetic material , not their knowledge and culture. all the reapers know is the harvest, that is what they were programed for , what more is there to learn from them,. besides tech

The Catalyst: We harvest their knowledge, their culture, everything..

[Ieldra]

pirate1802 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

as for the knowlegde. who knows what is left of the prior species. seems they just preserved their genetic material , not their knowledge and culture. all the reapers know is the harvest, that is what they were programed for , what more is there to learn from them,. besides tech

The Catalyst: We harvest their knowledge, their culture, everything..

You might add that the Reapers are "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined" - there's quite a bit more than mere technological knowledge.

[ghost9191]

where ? harvest advanced organic life, they don't take the time to studying culture , just harvest , to help ascend

ok "we harvest your body, your knowledge, your creations to be reborn into a form of a reaper" ok so says that, nothjhing bout culture though so but i still don't buy turning ppl into goo does that, it kills those that they harvest, and those that they don't/ and if they did some how survive, well you saw what happend to the colonist in ME2. pretty sure that wouldn't work out well., not if anything was left. so as said, it creates new machines , and they only know the harvest,  they have knowledge of past races , wil give that but is it worth it?

i mean the change, the taking away individuality ( or at least i gathered that much ) allowing a threat like the reapers to continue with the possibility that they can fall off the wagon and go harvest something for old times sake . for the knowledge . yeah knowledge is power but you can do the same with control. and without forcing a change on everyone , against their will

Modifié par ghost9191, 30 octobre 2012 - 05:31 .

[Ieldra]

ghost9191 wrote...
where does it say that? though

You mean this?

"Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within an immortal machine body. 'Each a nation'"

Legion says it under very specific, hard-to-get circumstances in Mass Effect 2. That's why it isn't common knowledge. The rarity is an artifact of game design - because you can't get Legion's last standard dialogue without losing at least half the crew, most people you don't get the post-SM conversation option dependent on it where this is said.

It is, btw, the only way the Reaperization process makes any sense. DNA could be sampled from individuals much more easily. DNA is not unique among the individuals of a species. Only if the minds are needed do the Reapers actually need those billions of individuals. I've hypothesized this long before I ever knew of Legion's dialogue.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 octobre 2012 - 05:33 .

[ghost9191]

no i got that , i meant the culture and knowledge part. i got that they were billions of minds . and what not, but just figured that they were created through the process , and all they knew was the harvest , yeah the knowledge was there. but if they were the minds of the victims then i would think they would be traumatized . probably easier ways to upload the mind . like i said, i just always figured they were " reborn " like the catalyst says. not what they once were but something knew, so destroying them but creating something in the process. so didn't think it kept the knowledge, just the race basically. like the collectors in the sense. they are protheans for the most part, but have known of their culture and such. they couldn't preserve them in reaper form so they did that way , as tools . destroying what they were as a race but keeping the genetic material for the most part

i save 3 mission for after the collector base, that way i can get all legions conversation,

Modifié par ghost9191, 30 octobre 2012 - 05:38 .