9089 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

I think they're valid life and Synthesis restores their function. The mercy kill argument horrifies me because once you grant yourself the ability to decide whether someone's life is worth living, you've already granted all the premises that would allow you to decide my life isn't worth living.

[Taboo]

So they need Synthesis to function? That's all kinds of unsightly, especially when you look at the Vitalism aesthetic already spread across Synthesis.

[Sinekein]

jtav wrote...

I think they're valid life and Synthesis restores their function. The mercy kill argument horrifies me because once you grant yourself the ability to decide whether someone's life is worth living, you've already granted all the premises that would allow you to decide my life isn't worth living.

But in Synthesis, Shepard alone decides everyone's fate in the galaxy - that is, becoming part-synthetic. He forces it. Even on people that are absolutely opposed to synthetics, such as Javik - Javik who thinks that eliminating Collectors, who also are a "form of life", is a Mercy Kill, and he is talking about his own race.

And the Reapers were forms of life before they were Reapers. But the Catalyst considers that life = DNA. A Reaper owns millions of DNAs from the people of an extinct civilization, ergo, this Civilization is still alive, exactly life it was before its harvest. It's mathematic, cold logic, Yes/No. It's not based on experience, it doesn't give a **** about freedom, choices or self-determination.

If you consider that life is more than your DNA, then the Reapers are at best storage units. But they are by no means a "valid form of life". You don't have "art", or "culture" in your DNA.

If you consider that your DNA is everything, then Synthesis is great.

[inko1nsiderate]

One thing that troubles me about synthesis, is how dangerous the Reapers are.  Even if they no longer reap, even if they share their knowledge freely, they are still horribly complicated minds that both synthetics and organics had trouble conceptualizing and fully understanding.  Even if they have no inherently violent purpose now that the cycle is broken, they still can be really dangerous simply for having such entirely alien motives.  I suppose the hope is that the lines of communication and understanding will allow us to understand Reapers better, but just because one level of communication is possible doesn't mean we can understand Reapers without intense effort.  WIll they act in conjunction as they have, or will their attitudes diverge?  Can they still indoctrinate people as an innate reflex like the dead Reaper in ME2 (dead, but dreaming)?  I suppose the natural question is  whether or not indoctrination even works in a synthesis galaxy. Will the difficulty in understanding their minds make conflict inevitable again?  Being unable to understand a Reaper but now having some deep understanding of the Geth or other synthetics might lead to fear and suspicion on the part of many (organic and synthetic alike).

I guess some of my Shepards are willing to ignore that risk, and others are not.

Taboo-XX wrote...

So they need Synthesis to function? That's all kinds of unsightly, especially when you look at the Vitalism aesthetic already spread across Synthesis.

I suppose there is a vitalism aesthetic...I think Battle Star Galactica had this as well, but I ended up really hating that ending.  I think if you are going to go with a theme that there is fundamental conflict, and that this conflict stems from the dynamics of created/creator, that it is preferable to end this dynamic without an outright rejection of technology. This is probably why I'm drawn to synthesis, because it is a total acceptance of technology.

This is why I think a lot of people assume the cycle continues in destroy (if they don't pick destroy), and it is because at the end of BSG (spoilers), they pick an analog to destroy by abandoning their technology.  The problem is that technology doesn't actually just go away forever.  So in that respect Destroy can also be chosen if you like the end goal of synthesis but do not like the way it is achieved, and would rather do it on their own without using Reaper technology.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:20 .

[Taboo]

inko1nsiderate wrote...
So in that respect Destroy can also be choosen if you like the end goal of synthesis but do not like the way it is acheived, and would rather do it on their own without using Reaper technology.

[inko1nsiderate]

Taboo-XX wrote...

inko1nsiderate wrote...
So in that respect Destroy can also be choosen if you like the end goal of synthesis but do not like the way it is acheived, and would rather do it on their own without using Reaper technology.

 *snip*

What is that, top gun?  Also, is this sarcastic?  I can't tell whether to be offended or feel complimented.

[Taboo]

That's Robert De Niro as Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver. He IS crazy is that film.

That IS a compliment I was simply tired of using Orson Welles.

I wanted someone recognizable clapping. More people know De Niro to Welles.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:23 .

[inko1nsiderate]

Taboo-XX wrote...

That's Robert De Niro as Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver. He IS crazy is that film.

That IS a compliment I was simply tired of using Orson Welles.

I wanted someone recognizable clapping. More people know De Niro to Welles.

Oh, yeah, the 'we are the people badge' should have made me realize who that was.  Also the Mohawk.  I have seen that movie, it has just been a while.

Modifié par inko1nsiderate, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:27 .

[Steelcan]

Taboo-XX wrote...

That's Robert De Niro as Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver. He IS crazy is that film.

That IS a compliment I was simply tired of using Orson Welles.

I wanted someone recognizable clapping. More people know De Niro to Welles.

.  I knew that was Taxi Driver

[ghost9191]

5well agree, and that is one of my reasons, as i have said in past post, i would prefer to achieve it on our own on our own terms.

and my shep sees the reapers as a life form, but they are also a threat, and as said they can still have influence and be that threat in synthesis. they can choose who gets knowledge and what they learn, influencing their path

so i don't destroy them out of vengeance , but because idk safer , same as the rachni and krogan genophage . sucked but something that had to be done. i however did save the queen twice, second time was harder though. but not saying i felt sympathy for them. the geth yeah but not so much the reapers. hell the reapers can devolope a god complex and go liviathans and enslave races demanding tribute

do however kinda want to destroy the rachni in ME1 jsut to respond to the turian councillor like "depends on the species.. turian"

however i am for destroying the geth out of revenge., those sons of b*tches killed Jenkins, i will never forget that .

mostly a joke ^^

Modifié par ghost9191, 31 octobre 2012 - 06:55 .

[inko1nsiderate]

ghost9191 wrote...

5well agree, and that is one of my reasons, as i have said in past post, i would prefer to achieve it on our own on our own terms.

and my shep sees the reapers as a life form, but they are also a threat, and as said they can still have influence and be that threat in synthesis. they can choose who gets knowledge and what they learn, influencing their path

so i don't destroy them out of vengeance , but because idk safer , same as the rachni and krogan genophage . sucked but something that had to be done. and not saying i felt sympathy for them. the geth yeah but not so much the reapers.

however i am for destroying the geth out of revenge., those sons of b*tches killed Jenkins, i will never forget that .

mostly a joke ^^

Someone needs to make a video of Shepard choosing destroy and yelling 'For Jenkins!'.

[Taboo]

Alternatively you could make a video of him choosing it while "Lust for Life" plays in the background.

[ghost9191]

well one i totally just watched that video, not sure what it was but 98% sure it had to do with drugs

and 2 well jenkins would have been nice as a squadmate. could play soldier and go with him and ash . max out soldier lvl. kinda of annoyed on second or third playthrough, his shields stilll get ripped through and despite having say 300-400 hp he gets insta'd by a drone

Modifié par ghost9191, 31 octobre 2012 - 07:00 .

[ghost9191]

ok so because of bringbacknihlus. am i right to assume i listened to the wrong song? taboo , you did not mean the one by Iggy Pop?

[Taboo]

Of course I meant the one by Iggy Pop! Why would you listen to the other one? Are you as high as Iggy was?

[ghost9191]

only high on this beautiful drug called life. and i did listen to iggy lol. not drake, was about to but started watching a show

[Bill Casey]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Of course I meant the one by Iggy Pop! Why would you listen to the other one? Are you as high as Iggy was?

A more appropriate song for Destroy might be "Something I Can Never Have"...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 31 octobre 2012 - 07:13 .

[Ieldra]

Sinekein wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think they're valid life and Synthesis restores their function. The mercy kill argument horrifies me because once you grant yourself the ability to decide whether someone's life is worth living, you've already granted all the premises that would allow you to decide my life isn't worth living.

But in Synthesis, Shepard alone decides everyone's fate in the galaxy - that is, becoming part-synthetic. He forces it. Even on people that are absolutely opposed to synthetics, such as Javik - Javik who thinks that eliminating Collectors, who also are a "form of life", is a Mercy Kill, and he is talking about his own race.

And the Reapers were forms of life before they were Reapers. But the Catalyst considers that life = DNA. A Reaper owns millions of DNAs from the people of an extinct civilization, ergo, this Civilization is still alive, exactly life it was before its harvest. It's mathematic, cold logic, Yes/No. It's not based on experience, it doesn't give a **** about freedom, choices or self-determination.

If you consider that life is more than your DNA, then the Reapers are at best storage units. But they are by no means a "valid form of life". You don't have "art", or "culture" in your DNA.

If you consider that your DNA is everything, then Synthesis is great.

You are forgetting that the Reapers are not just made of genetic material. They're "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined in an immortal machine body. 'Each a nation'" (Legion in ME2). That's the real "essence of the species", the DNA is just a carrier of information about the physical form.

In other words, the Reapers are a species forcibly transformed, but they're still carrying everything that species ever was.

Yes, Shepard does decide that everyone gets the ability to integrate technology. That's not "deciding everyone's fate" though. People can go on living and make decisions about their life as they always did. The EC suggests that their identity remains intact. 

[His Name was HYR!!]

inko1nsiderate wrote...

One thing that troubles me about synthesis, is how dangerous the Reapers are.  Even if they no longer reap, even if they share their knowledge freely, they are still horribly complicated minds that both synthetics and organics had trouble conceptualizing and fully understanding.  Even if they have no inherently violent purpose now that the cycle is broken, they still can be really dangerous simply for having such entirely alien motives.

I think they'd be about the same as any other synthetic that one would accept into galactic civilization.

They may have organic minds uploaded to them, but they are predominantly built and function as synthetics, so for all intents and purposes, they are synthetics. For that matter, it's not clear to us how much the uploaded organic component to the Reapers influences their personality (are they the entire species, or is that all just data?).

For that reason, I'd see the danger of newly-freed Reapers as a minimal one. Evil motives are driven by organic qualities of greed, hatred, aggression, and whatnot. Fear of synthetics largely projects those qualities. Synthetics have no material needs. For that reason, it would be pointless for a given Reaper to seek conflict with the galaxy, because they'd have about nothing to gain from it, aside from mere pleasure (if they're capable of that).

And given the vast intelligence of the Reapers, I don't think they'd act so pointlessly.

A lot of people point to dialogue of Sovereign and Harbinger to say "they don't sound very friendly to me." Well, they were indoctrinated. It's about as accurate an assessment of their personality as it would be to judge Dr. Kenson based on how she acted after arriving at The Project base - not accurate at all. Under control, personality is corrupted.

I suppose the hope is that the lines of communication and understanding will allow us to understand Reapers better, but just because one level of communication is possible doesn't mean we can understand Reapers without intense effort

I do believe one big aim behind Synthesis was unabling all life forms to communicate and understand the Reapers.

But...

WIll they act in conjunction as they have, or will their attitudes diverge?  Can they still indoctrinate people as an innate reflex like the dead Reaper in ME2 (dead, but dreaming)?  I suppose the natural question is  whether or not indoctrination even works in a synthesis galaxy. Will the difficulty in understanding their minds make conflict inevitable again?

One word: lotsofspeculationforeveryone.

[Sinekein]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You are forgetting that the Reapers are not just made of genetic material. They're "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined in an immortal machine body. 'Each a nation'" (Legion in ME2). That's the real "essence of the species", the DNA is just a carrier of information about the physical form.

So people know that they are trapped inside a Reaper ? They witnessed the end of their Civilization, without being able to do anything ? It makes things worse, no ? Some minds have been trapped for million of years, watching galactic extinctions over and over again.

Also, what is the point in having a mind, if you don't have a body ? If you do believe in the immortality of the soul, then you'd rather be "physically" dead, instead of trapped inside a Reaper, I guess.

[ghost9191]

@HYR 2.0

but after the whole catalyst thing. that kinda disproves that. and synthesis gives them insight into organics, emotions and such so who knows. and as the prothean vi said. we probably couldn't comprehend why they would do something. i mean everyone will need resources, and they aren't limitless. but just saying , synthetics will do something based on their programming , evidence of the reapers . don't really need to want to

but that is just my take . them gaining emotions or whatever, understanding could make them a threat on their own. more then just because of their programming. but unknown

but that is just about whether or not they will be a threat, hard to say. some might and some might not be

[His Name was HYR!!]

Sinekein wrote...

So people know that they are trapped inside a Reaper ? They witnessed the end of their Civilization, without being able to do anything ? It makes things worse, no ? Some minds have been trapped for million of years, watching galactic extinctions over and over again.

Also, what is the point in having a mind, if you don't have a body ? If you do believe in the immortality of the soul, then you'd rather be "physically" dead, instead of trapped inside a Reaper, I guess.

There are always - always - two sides to an opinion.

Given that, it's silly to call Destroy a mercy. You're assuming what's mercy based on your opinion, not what the other side actually sees fit for themselves.

They may not feel "trapped." They may still wish to live. Their new life may not be as terrible as your pre-conception of it.

[clennon8]

Been a while since I visited the Church of the Indoctrinated. So I see this theme of embracing the mind-controlling space Chthulus continues to propagate unabated. Your masters are pleased. Continue.