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[His Name was HYR!!]

ghost9191 wrote...

@HYR 2.0

but after the whole catalyst thing. that kinda disproves that.

Not sure what you're getting at here - ?

and synthesis gives them insight into organics, emotions and such so who knows. and as the prothean vi said. we probably couldn't comprehend why they would do something.

At the time of Vigil, that appears to be true. After it, it's really not. ME2 made it abundantly clear what the get from harvesting: new Reapers. And lastly, ME3 the whole thing out for us. That was just while they were harvesting, but it proves that their motives are not unknowable.

And really, I find the whole premise of "unknowable motives" to be a bit nonsensical. We know they have some need/want for harvesting in ME1. At that point, the number of possible motives behind that harvest is limited, and can be reasonably guessed (especially as more information comes out over the course of the war).

i mean everyone will need resources, and they aren't limitless.

The Reapers live in dark space for millennia before harvesting. They have no need for resources; they're self-sufficient.

but that is just my take . them gaining emotions or whatever, understanding could make them a threat on their own. more then just because of their programming. but unknown

I'm not convinced. I think even you realize there's a lot of mental-gymnastics going on in your reasoning. Just saying.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 31 octobre 2012 - 09:32 .

[Ieldra]

Sinekein wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You are forgetting that the Reapers are not just made of genetic material. They're "billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined in an immortal machine body. 'Each a nation'" (Legion in ME2). That's the real "essence of the species", the DNA is just a carrier of information about the physical form.

So people know that they are trapped inside a Reaper ? They witnessed the end of their Civilization, without being able to do anything ? It makes things worse, no ? Some minds have been trapped for million of years, watching galactic extinctions over and over again.

Also, what is the point in having a mind, if you don't have a body ? If you do believe in the immortality of the soul, then you'd rather be "physically" dead, instead of trapped inside a Reaper, I guess.

As I said. After having been freed from the Catalyst's mind control, they're free to move on to the afterlife if they want. Also, the mental state of the Reapers is unknown. It's just known that something resembling a collective mind of the species exists.

[Restrider]

I think the uploaded minds that form the collective mind of a Reaper - hence each a nation - would be in some kind of utopian environment. If they would be in a state of constant agony, the collective mind would show that and you would have some kind of insane entity not able to do anything. And as I've seen, a few of the Synthesis supporters here in this thread agrees with my assertion.

Keeping that in mind and comparing it to what we see in the Synthesis slides - a utopian vision, a golden age with a future beyond everything we can imagine - and the fact that there are parts in ME3 that are not to be taken literally (quote from BW employee), I think it is save to assume what Synthesis really is.

But this is just the opinion of a deluded dreamer.

[Ieldra]

We have no idea of the mental state of the Reapers and their virtual environment, if any. This is 100% pure invention with not a shred of evidence, not even a shred of plausibility. The Reaper minds are controlled by the Catalyst, apart from that the default assumption is that they control the Reaper as their bodies as usual.

Edit:
I'm getting so sick of these indoctrination/illusion claims, I don't have words for it. Why the HELL are people so determined to see Synthesis as negative as possbible. This is completely insane!

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 octobre 2012 - 09:54 .

[Restrider]

But isn't the Catalyst the collective mind of the Reapers?

[clennon8]

It seems unlikely that they're having a party in there.

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

We have no idea of the mental state of the Reapers and their virtual environment, if any. This is 100% pure invention with not a shred of evidence, not even a shred of plausibility. The Reaper minds are controlled by the Catalyst, apart from that the default assumption is that they control the Reaper as their bodies as usual.

Just as everything you say about the Reapers is speculation as well.

We're given no info on the stuff you say.

[Ieldra]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
We have no idea of the mental state of the Reapers and their virtual environment, if any. This is 100% pure invention with not a shred of evidence, not even a shred of plausibility. The Reaper minds are controlled by the Catalyst, apart from that the default assumption is that they control the Reaper as their bodies as usual.

Just as everything you say about the Reapers is speculation as well.

We're given no info on the stuff you say.

I have evidence from the games for the Reapers being uploaded and conjoined minds, which means that something of the species identity is preserved which makes it extremely implausible that they all support the Catalyst without fail which leads to the very plausible assumption of mind control.

I have plausible speculation based on evidence from the games. You have 100% invention based on  malice.

[Ieldra]

Restrider wrote...
But isn't the Catalyst the collective mind of the Reapers?

Since the Reapers have been created by the Catalyst, that makes no sense. It may be that the Catalyst uses the Reapers as a kind of brain augmentation, but there must be a controlling agent, the Catalyst which the leviathans made  and who started up the cycle by turning them into Harbinger.

As usual, the writing is anything but consistent in ME3's ending.

[ghost9191]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

ghost9191 wrote...

@HYR 2.0

but after the whole catalyst thing. that kinda disproves that.

Not sure what you're getting at here - ?

and synthesis gives them insight into organics, emotions and such so who knows. and as the prothean vi said. we probably couldn't comprehend why they would do something.

At the time of Vigil, that appears to be true. After it, it's really not. ME2 made it abundantly clear what the get from harvesting: new Reapers. And lastly, ME3 the whole thing out for us. That was just while they were harvesting, but it proves that their motives are not unknowable.

And really, I find the whole premise of "unknowable motives" to be a bit nonsensical. We know they have some need/want for harvesting in ME1. At that point, the number of possible motives behind that harvest is limited, and can be reasonably guessed (especially as more information comes out over the course of the war).

i mean everyone will need resources, and they aren't limitless.

The Reapers live in dark space for millennia before harvesting. They have no need for resources; they're self-sufficient.

but that is just my take . them gaining emotions or whatever, understanding could make them a threat on their own. more then just because of their programming. but unknown

I'm not convinced. I think even you realize there's a lot of mental-gymnastics going on in your reasoning. Just saying.

actually it was pretty straight foward, the reapers won't be the only ones around. there will be geth, which do require resources. i was just saying that the reapers may have a reason we don't know about. and we cannot comprehend what makes them them. pretty sure legion said something close to that

they are not free from emotions. that is part of synthesis , or so says the catalyst. so in your post saying they don't have them, that is false

simple

Modifié par ghost9191, 31 octobre 2012 - 10:05 .

[fiendishchicken]

Ieldra2 wrote...

fiendishchicken wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
We have no idea of the mental state of the Reapers and their virtual environment, if any. This is 100% pure invention with not a shred of evidence, not even a shred of plausibility. The Reaper minds are controlled by the Catalyst, apart from that the default assumption is that they control the Reaper as their bodies as usual.

Just as everything you say about the Reapers is speculation as well.

We're given no info on the stuff you say.

I have evidence from the games for the Reapers being uploaded and conjoined minds, which means that something of the species identity is preserved which makes it extremely implausible that they all support the Catalyst without fail which leads to the very plausible assumption of mind control.

I have plausible speculation based on evidence from the games. You have 100% invention based on  malice.

PLAUSIBLE SPECULATION!!!!

I want absolute proof please.

100% invention on malice? Where the hell is that coming from.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 31 octobre 2012 - 10:05 .

[Kabooooom]

I'm getting so sick of these indoctrination/illusion claims, I don't have words for it. Why the HELL are people so determined to see Synthesis as negative as possbible. This is completely insane!

Yes, you even went so far as to accuse me of holding that view (without reading my post) in another discussion. Are you just tired of seeing it so often, or do you think that anyone who objects to Synthesis and the preservation of the Reapers somehow holds that position?

Yes, Shepard does decide that everyone gets the ability to integrate technology. That's not "deciding everyone's fate" though. People can go on living and make decisions about their life as they always did. The EC suggests that their identity remains intact.

I'm confused. Are you seriously proposing that deciding that everyone will become semi-synthetic against their will is somehow morally correct because they still have free-will and identity?

[Ieldra]

Kabooooom wrote...

I'm getting so sick of these indoctrination/illusion claims, I don't have words for it. Why the HELL are people so determined to see Synthesis as negative as possbible. This is completely insane!

Yes, you even went so far as to accuse me of holding that view (without reading my post) in another discussion. Are you just tired of seeing it so often, or do you think that anyone who objects to Synthesis and the preservation of the Reapers somehow holds that position?

No, I don't think that. If I have mistaken your opinion, I'm sorry. I may be a little hair-triggered about this.

Yes, Shepard does decide that everyone gets the ability to integrate technology. That's not "deciding everyone's fate" though. People can go on living and make decisions about their life as they always did. The EC suggests that their identity remains intact.

I'm confused. Are you seriously proposing that deciding that everyone will become semi-synthetic against their will is somehow morally correct because they still have free-will and identity?

Neither do I think that. It is not a decision I would make in any other circumstances. I think for the reasons I have given, it is justifiable within the circumstances, but I do not like that I must buy this "new and wonderful future" with a change on such a scale. I'd rather have Shepard synthesized and then let the epilogue show that the galaxy gradually adopts it. Unfortunately that option does not exist.

I'm reminded of people's complaints in ME2 why they couldn't give the Collector base to the Alliance or the Council...

[clennon8]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Restrider wrote...
But isn't the Catalyst the collective mind of the Reapers?

Since the Reapers have been created by the Catalyst, that makes no sense. It may be that the Catalyst uses the Reapers as a kind of brain augmentation, but there must be a controlling agent, the Catalyst which the leviathans made  and who started up the cycle by turning them into Harbinger.

As usual, the writing is anything but consistent in ME3's ending.

I love this.  Anything said in-game that doesn't fit into your Synthesis Screed is immediately written off as bad writing.  But your wild, voluminous, half-baked extrapolations are all "plausible speculation."

Modifié par clennon8, 31 octobre 2012 - 10:15 .

[Ieldra]

clennon8 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Restrider wrote...
But isn't the Catalyst the collective mind of the Reapers?

Since the Reapers have been created by the Catalyst, that makes no sense. It may be that the Catalyst uses the Reapers as a kind of brain augmentation, but there must be a controlling agent, the Catalyst which the leviathans made  and who started up the cycle by turning them into Harbinger.

As usual, the writing is anything but consistent in ME3's ending.

I love this.  Anything said in-game that doesn't fit into your Synthesis Screed is imediately written off as bad writing.  But your wild, voluminous, half-baked extrapolations are all "plausible speculation."

Well, then YOU tell me how the Catalyst can be the collective mind of all Reapers while it is their creator. If you have a contradiction, and you can't resolve it, there is necessarily one side you must dismiss.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 octobre 2012 - 10:17 .

[Kabooooom]

Neither do I think that. It is not a decision I would make in any other circumstances. I think for the reasons I have given, it is justifiable within the circumstances, but I do not like that I must buy this "new and wonderful future" with a change on such a scale. I'd rather have Shepard synthesized and then let the epilogue show that the galaxy gradually adopts it. Unfortunately that option does not exist.

Then we are in agreement. Each ending is a moral gray area, one not better than the other. The Catalyst says that Synthesis is inevitable, and maybe he is right - I just choose to let the galaxy decide to adopt it on their own.

Well, then YOU tell me how the Catalyst can be the collective mind of all Reapers while it is their creator.

I think it's pretty clear that it isn't. Each reaper 'is a nation' - composed of the minds of individuals of the species that created it. So I agree with you here too. The Catalyst seems to just control them absolutely.

But, in the Control ending as Shep becomes (presumably) the new Catalyst, he does seem to have a decentralized consciousness and perceives things in a very Reaper-ey way.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 31 octobre 2012 - 10:19 .

[ghost9191]

@Ieldra2

space magic


@Clennon8

you just gave me a good idea. i will read the op while getting high . it will either be a buzz kill or a kick ass trip through time and space like cast away

[Steelcan]

All hail to SuperMac.

[clennon8]

Simple explanation. It's a trick. Maybe you've heard of this thing called Indoctrination? The Reapers are good at it. They do it all the time. You aren't the first one to fall for this line of bull. Just sayin.

[Steelcan]

clennon8 wrote...

Simple explanation. It's a trick. Maybe you've heard of this thing called Indoctrination? The Reapers are good at it. They do it all the time. You aren't the first one to fall for this line of bull. Just sayin.

. And some people think synthesis is a good thing.  It's up to each person to decide

[Kabooooom]

clennon8 wrote...

Simple explanation. It's a trick. Maybe you've heard of this thing called Indoctrination? The Reapers are good at it. They do it all the time. You aren't the first one to fall for this line of bull. Just sayin.

Bioware left the ending deliberately vague so that both an IT interpretation and a literal interpretation (what they probably intended in the first place) would ultimately be valid in an attempt to please all fans. But arguing solely from the perspective that it was all indoctrination is counterproductive to discussion, and it is especially ironic when you are asking Ieldra for evidence.

[clennon8]

I'll say it again. Reduced to a base concept and not an ending in Mass Effect 3, I see nothing wrong with Synthesis. In the context of this game's narrative, though, it's a trick. A pretty obvious one at that.

[Kabooooom]

clennon8 wrote...

I'll say it again. Reduced to a base concept and not an ending in Mass Effect 3, I see nothing wrong with Synthesis. In the context of this game's narrative, though, it's a trick. A pretty obvious one at that.

You can interpret it that way, as I said. Or you can interpret it literally. Bioware wanted it to be an open ended question.

I personally view Synthesis and Control as a semi-indoctrination attempt, or at the very least what the Catalyst prefers to extinction. But each ending clearly works out alright. I still choose to blast the Reapers to hell and back.

But others prefer other endings, or other interpretations. And that's fine. Trying to argue that your view is somehow objectively superior is a bit amusing to say the least.

[ghost9191]

idk mine is clearly superior and i refuse to hear otherwise