9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Taboo-XX wrote...
People are making others endings malicious for no reason. Since the EC came out you really don't have an excuse.

Agreed.

However I just KNOW that Miranda believes in magic now in Synthesis. 

Maybe in your universe. As we've both learned, it's a little different from mine.

Also as I've said many times before "NO MORE DARK AGE!"

:)
The most significant redeeming feature of the EC.

[Wayning_Star]

fiendishchicken wrote...

Synthesis sucks

Control sucks

Refuse had potential but it sucks

Destroy sucks the least, so that's what I go with.

I know I'm all pro destroy here, but the truth is, I really hate the ending to Mass Effect 3.

That's funny to me tho, I don't "hate" any ending in ME3. But I only can pick one as my own that fits with the nature of the story. That nature being  "VS nature to survive". In the end the story always pushes that organics have to push against nature it's self to survive/thrive within deep space. Variation to that theme are realized via the diversity of "beings" other than human that reside there and to some extent, control the enviornment. But nature it's self is out of control, or seems that way. A constant and never ending resistence to 'life', eventhough most life is spontanious.

It's almost as if mother nature wishes to 'take back' that what it's bestowed upon all things living or not. Constently changing, but in that/those changes, remains the same. Time is "do". Or die is not to "do".  So the choices ends up only different threads in the timeless nature of the cosmos. For short lived beings(all organics are such..compared to the cosmos.) there isn't enough time to consider these realities as controlling, its always about the short story. In this regard, there is little meaning to life other than what effect on the cosmos it may have to alter "nature". That supposed choice, would be construed as demands, are synthesis, as it apparently alters the basis of nature, that regulates the differences, if any, of intelligent life as reflected in the idea of evolution.

That being said, evolution is a slow learning process for any given life form, the processes of the synthesis,as an experimental thread that combines organic and synthetic organisms to align with nature as beings created "equal". A human concept, via the alien catalyst construction/intellect(not intelligence, the writers misnomered that one , a byproduct of Leviathan 'tinkering' with nature and it's "apparent" rules.

In all it's just another variation of sticks'n stones. Mother nature looks on and says... Ehh, so what, next...lol

[His Name was HYR!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

People are making others endings malicious for no reason. Since the EC came out you really don't have an excuse.

Not making it malicious. Just noting the irony of Destroyers calling out Synthesis for not being rooted in proper science.

IMO, only Control is believably sound.

[Steelcan]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

People are making others endings malicious for no reason. Since the EC came out you really don't have an excuse.

Not making it malicious. Just noting the irony of Destroyers calling out Synthesis for not being rooted in proper science.

IMO, only Control is believably sound.

. I don't get that argument.  What is so far fetched about an EMP that affects certain technology?  This is a universe where FTL travel, mating with aliens, and advanced AI is all possible.  I think the people who built the Crucible are smart enough to have it target specific things, not just all technology.

think the Halos in Halo.  They emit massive amounts of radiation that kill sentient(not just sapient) life.  It basically causes anything with a brain to die.  Reason, the brain cells are subjected to massive amounts of radiation that mutate and destroy them.

[Steelcan]

An idea I had while thinking about the endings....

http://social.biowar.../index/14806498

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...
. I don't get that argument.  What is so far fetched about an EMP that affects certain technology?

The premise that an EMP can identify certain types of technology apart from others, thus asserting that its an energy wave that has a mind.

Control's descrimination I can buy because you can't reprogram that which lacks the required programming to start.

Destroy, not so much.

This is a universe where FTL travel, mating with aliens, and advanced AI is all possible.  I think the people who built the Crucible are smart enough to have it target specific things, not just all technology.

That's why I can't truly be bothered with "space magic" in general. I've accepted lots of things I don't completely buy even in a sci-fi world, so the whole Crucible thing is just par for the course to me!

That said, Destroyers who bash Synthesis on account of phony science are begging-the-question.

The recent MEHEM is proof that the fanbase themselves don't actually care about these issues as much as they act like they do, either. They're willing to accept a lot of narrative/aesthetic flaws in order to accept an ending that they approve of.

think the Halos in Halo.  They emit massive amounts of radiation that kill sentient(not just sapient) life.  It basically causes anything with a brain to die.  Reason, the brain cells are subjected to massive amounts of radiation that mutate and destroy them.

That's practically the opposite of Destroy.

[Steelcan]

I brought up the rings because they do function similarly. Their goal is to eradicate all sentient life. The Crucibe eradicates all reaper tech.

As for the energy wave being able o "think". Think of it more as (and I hate to use this example) fire. It destroys some things but not others. It burns certain things at set temperatures. The hotter the fire the more it destroys. It's an EMP that doesn't think, but discriminates instead. Ignore Starbrat he's lying. Th Crucible quite clearly does not destroy all technology, it really only affects reaper technology. But say the Crucible is damaged, as would happen in a lower EMS situation, and it is less able to discriminate is more unstable more unwieldy.

And destroy has some roots in actual science EMP's exist. Synthesis is soul energy mixed with heavy heavy religious overtones

Modifié par Steelcan, 05 novembre 2012 - 08:40 .

[fiendishchicken]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
. I don't get that argument.  What is so far fetched about an EMP that affects certain technology?

The premise that an EMP can identify certain types of technology apart from others, thus asserting that its an energy wave that has a mind.

Control's descrimination I can buy because you can't reprogram that which lacks the required programming to start.

Destroy, not so much.

This is a universe where FTL travel, mating with aliens, and advanced AI is all possible.  I think the people who built the Crucible are smart enough to have it target specific things, not just all technology.

That's why I can't truly be bothered with "space magic" in general. I've accepted lots of things I don't completely buy even in a sci-fi world, so the whole Crucible thing is just par for the course to me!

That said, Destroyers who bash Synthesis on account of phony science are begging-the-question.

The recent MEHEM is proof that the fanbase themselves don't actually care about these issues as much as they act like they do, either. They're willing to accept a lot of narrative/aesthetic flaws in order to accept an ending that they approve of.

think the Halos in Halo.  They emit massive amounts of radiation that kill sentient(not just sapient) life.  It basically causes anything with a brain to die.  Reason, the brain cells are subjected to massive amounts of radiation that mutate and destroy them.

That's practically the opposite of Destroy.

It's not far fetched at all. SIGINT guys here have electronic weapons that target only foreign systems in a similar manner to emp. It doesn't shut them down, but it really screws them up. I really can't talk about it much though since I don't know too much about it. I'm an MI Collecter/Analyst Officer , not SIGINT.

If the Army today has Electronic Warfare tech that screws up foreign networks while leaving friendly networks alnoe, I'm sure there's a way to make EMP work agains only Reaper tech, seeing as the crucible was designed to target the Reapers.


And buddy, Synthesis *is* space magic. Vitalism. 

Explain how your life energy is added to the crucible? The essence of who you are? I have a high suspension of disbelief, but come on. 

I think synthesis genuinely sucks. They could make it where Shepard lives and I'd still denounce it.

I don't see how the Halo's have anything to with it though. That's space magic as well in my opinion. But it's still a cool concept.

Modifié par fiendishchicken, 05 novembre 2012 - 10:30 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...

I brought up the rings because they do function similarly. Their goal is to eradicate all sentient life. The Crucibe eradicates all reaper tech.

As for the energy wave being able to "think". Think of it more as (and I hate to use this example) fire. It destroys some things but not others. It burns certain things at set temperatures. The hotter the fire the more it destroys. It's an EMP that doesn't think, but discriminates instead. Ignore Starbrat he's lying. Th Crucible quite clearly does not destroy all technology, it really only affects reaper technology. But say the Crucible is damaged, as would happen in a lower EMS situation, and it is less able to discriminate is more unstable more unwieldy.

Again, that is logical, but unfortunately not stated anywhere in-game.

So, we're back to where we started: speculation.

Which is ironic, because I'm pretty sure this all started with a Destroyer saying that any explanations not given in-game are invalid. If you only go by in-game, though, Destroy is equally nonsensical. Hence, the need for a little more thought.

And destroy has some roots in actual science EMP's exist. Synthesis is soul energy mixed with heavy heavy religious overtones

You just said to ignore Starbrat, he's lying. So why should I accept the soul-energy explanation you yourself say is shoddy?

[His Name was HYR!!]

fiendishchicken wrote...

It's not far fetched at all. SIGINT guys here have electronic weapons that target only foreign systems in a similar manner to emp. It doesn't shut them down, but it really screws them up. I really can't talk about it much though since I don't know too much about it. I'm an MI Collecter/Analyst Officer , not SIGINT.

If the Army today has Electronic Warfare tech that screws up foreign networks while leaving friendly networks alnoe, I'm sure there's a way to make EMP work agains only Reaper tech, seeing as the crucible was designed to target the Reapers.

SIGINT works through locational targetting. Only reason it doesn't interfere with other systems is because the it's directed its intended target. For that matter, SIGINT is known to affect superflous systems within the targetted area very often.

With Destroy, we're dealing with an uncontained blast that spreads through the entire galaxy. If that's an EMP capable of destroying Reapers, it would also destroy A LOT of other tech in the process. Which it doesn't, except for *synthetic life.

*Not limited to EDI and the geth.

Explain how your life energy is added to the crucible? The essence of who you are? I have a high suspension of disbelief, but come on.

Here's a deal. I'll explain it to you if you can reasonably explain something to me that *I* consider to be a perpetrator of "space-magic" in this trilogy. You may choose one between two of the following:

-- How can Javik read physiology/DNA through touch?
-- How does sticking a man on a giant spike make him a cyborg zombie?

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 06 novembre 2012 - 02:44 .

[Steelcan]

@. HYR 2.0

First of all I said to ignore Casper because he is wrong. The EC slides prove that technology does not get obliterated, only reaper tech. In Synthesis Shepard dissolves and his "energy" is used to help synthesis. I don't get what you were trying to say. It doesn't have to happen in game, the EC slides are fair game as well, and they prove that Destroy is not a galactic reset button on all technology.

As for Javik's ability. That does have some roots in science. He is reading experience through biological markers. This does happen in real life. Long periods of stress or sickness etc... Do leave their mark on the body, raised hormone levels, things like that. While his ability is conceptually sound, the way it is presented is terrible I agree.

As for the Dragon's Teeth. This is explained in Sanctuary. One of the logs you can hear tells Henry Lawson talking bout how the spikes use the body's hormones and attach nanites to them to sped up conversion.

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...
@. HYR 2.0
First of all I said to ignore Casper because he is wrong. The EC slides prove that technology does not get obliterated, only reaper tech. In Synthesis Shepard dissolves and his "energy" is used to help synthesis. I don't get what you were trying to say. It doesn't have to happen in game, the EC slides are fair game as well, and they prove that Destroy is not a galactic reset button on all technology.

The EC slides prove nothing beyond that not *all* technology is affected and that in-system space travel is still possible. Nowhere is it said that only Reaper tech is affected. And if it is, there's the very interesting question of how it gets identified by the big energy wave.... which started this round of discussion. I agree with HYR that only Control appears to be grounded in in-world logic reasonably well. For Destroy and Synthesis we need to interpret things in creative ways to make them make sense.

As for Javik's ability. That does have some roots in science. He is reading experience through biological markers. This does happen in real life. Long periods of stress or sickness etc... Do leave their mark on the body, raised hormone levels, things like that. While his ability is conceptually sound, the way it is presented is terrible I agree.

Epigenetics are interesting, but you can't read someone's personality or social events in their lives from DNA. That's just ridiculous. And you can't distinguish an artificial sequence of DNA from a natural one unless it's deliberately marked or it has non-human elements in it.

Let's face it. The ME universe is full of space magic, starting with the name-giving mass effect itself, the rationalization of which is so ridiculous that it doesn't even make sense in-world, followed up by ubiquitous inter-species sex and ending with Javik's "psychometric" ability and Shepard's sacrifice in the Synthesis. But the *process* of Synthesis - what it actually does apart from Shepard's role in it - is much less space-magicky than the workings of a mass effect core.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 novembre 2012 - 01:21 .

[Steelcan]

It isn't explicitly stated that only reaper tech is affected but it is shown that only reaper tech is destroyed. Relays, Citadel, and reapers are all affected, whereas conventional ships still work.

And Javik. I agree DNA cannot be used for this. That's just bad writing combined with a poor understanding of biology.

[George Costanza]

None of the endings make sense. Synthesis probably makes the least sense, but the other two aren't getting away with it either. In fact, most of the story doesn't make sense from the point the Crucible is introduced. Such a silly plot device.

[SimonTheFrog]

Ieldra2: "Epigenetics are interesting"

That they are.


What I think makes synthesis and other parts of the ending stick out the way they do for many people is the following:

Mass Effect starts out like many sci-fi novels, especially the good ones. It asks a "what if" question. The question is: what would be possible if there would be an unknown element with the unique capability of creating a bubble that causes different weight for objects in it.

It is a very interesting question, especially how it is set up that this element could only be found on planets that happened to be "near" super-novas (which earth isn't and which is why we can't know about the element for now).

One result could be a resolution to speed and mass (http://en.wikipedia....cial_relativity).

Another could be biotics where the electricity of nerves is used to change the charge of the element zero in one's body in order to create those bubbles around the body.

And then drugs that help that process... big devices that reduce mass completely and then send objects somewhere to the far end of the galaxy etc. etc.

It's all consequences of that first assumption. And they are layed out one after the other in the game. Its a thinking experiment transformed into a game to play along. It's inspired and inspiring.

Sure, then it all went downhill from there because someone at bioware didn't grasp the elegance of the first assumption. Biotics got sillier and sillier from ME1 to ME2 and ME3 as an example.

But anyway, the point is: there is an initial idea, an assumption, and a whole game that shows what the consequences could be.

The tech used at the end of ME3 is supposedly related to the mass relays. But is it really? Especially synthesis is far more than something that is a consequence of the element zero assumption. It is a whole new assumption by it's own. Or even a bunch of several assumptions (organics have an "essence", DNA can be manipulated in an intelligent way remotely, artificial intelligence and organic physiology can be merged etc. etc.)

And then the game ends.

You see, that could have been awesome, actually. Raising another grand question just like element zero at the end of the trilogy. But synthesis fails as such a question because it is not to the point enough. It is rather, as i wrote earlier, a whole bunch of assumptions and not one singular one. And, basically, the stuff we see ingame and in slides is just a mess.

So, me and probably many others didn't feel inspired but rather confused and helpless.

P.S. confused and helpless doesn't actually describe it well. I was more annoyed and frustrated, actually.

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 06 novembre 2012 - 05:00 .

[His Name was HYR!!]

Steelcan wrote...

As for the Dragon's Teeth. This is explained in Sanctuary. One of the logs you can hear tells Henry Lawson talking bout how the spikes use the body's hormones and attach nanites to them to sped up conversion.

I remember the Sanctuary logs, that actually made it less believable to me.

Dragon's Teeth don't inject, they impale. So the premise of them attaching nanites to human adrenaline is silly - the subject is bleeding out and has a gaping hole in their guts. And where does it get those nanites from, anyway?

As for the other stuff, I think my point has been made.

[Sinekein]

Ieldra2 wrote...

As for Javik's ability. That does have some roots in science. He is reading experience through biological markers. This does happen in real life. Long periods of stress or sickness etc... Do leave their mark on the body, raised hormone levels, things like that. While his ability is conceptually sound, the way it is presented is terrible I agree.

Epigenetics are interesting, but you can't read someone's personality or social events in their lives from DNA. That's just ridiculous. And you can't distinguish an artificial sequence of DNA from a natural one unless it's deliberately marked or it has non-human elements in it.

Let's face it. The ME universe is full of space magic, starting with the name-giving mass effect itself, the rationalization of which is so ridiculous that it doesn't even make sense in-world, followed up by ubiquitous inter-species sex and ending with Javik's "psychometric" ability and Shepard's sacrifice in the Synthesis. But the *process* of Synthesis - what it actually does apart from Shepard's role in it - is much less space-magicky than the workings of a mass effect core.

Actually ME is not "full of" space magic. The only "space magic" is the Mass Effect. Everything else is developped using this space magic.

Plus, the ME universe is quite precise about how biochemistry works. During the games, we hear about double-stranded DNA vs 4-strand DNA, dextro amino-acids vs levo amino-acids. The most "space-magicky" biochemistry thing, aside obviously from Synthesis, is Javik's ability to "read" DNA - but again, it could be a mix of an advanced perception of pheromones and an extremely high ability to perceive genetic and epigenetic mechanisms. Note that he doesn't read a single thing about Tali, even if she was sharing the deck with him. She has a suit, so his "magic ability" doesn't work.

And then comes Synthesis, where something happens that makes people half synthetic, while probably deeply changing their DNA, because the immune system has the nasty habit of attacking foreign bodies. That's one hundred times more "magicky" than what Javik does. 

[Sinekein]

Steelcan wrote...

And Javik. I agree DNA cannot be used for this. That's just bad writing combined with a poor understanding of biology.

Actually, if you consider Epigenetics, this may be DNA-related. But instead of "reading" the DNA, he "reads" the DNA-protein interactions. You'd need an insanely powerful scanner to make sense of what you get, but it is a possibility. The DNA sequence mainly remains the same in the body (mainly), but the proteic interactions are changing all the time.

And Javik isn't the type of guy who loves to explain advanced cell biology to other people. He is not Liara.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Sinekein wrote...

Actually ME is not "full of" space magic. The only "space magic" is the Mass Effect. Everything else is developped using this space magic.

Except when it's not. Like Lazarus, huskification, Javik's sensory ability, Prothean Beacons, and what have you.

Plus, the ME universe is quite precise about how biochemistry works. During the games, we hear about double-stranded DNA vs 4-strand DNA, dextro amino-acids vs levo amino-acids.

You realize a lot of the "science" around dextro/levo stuff was shoddy at best, right?

it could be a mix of an advanced perception of pheromones and an extremely high ability to perceive genetic and epigenetic mechanisms.

Let the record show another example of speculation necessitated by the lack of sufficient in-game explanation.

Note that he doesn't read a single thing about Tali, even if she was sharing the deck with him. She has a suit, so his "magic ability" doesn't work.

He doesn't read any other squadmate, what's your point?

That's one hundred times more "magicky" than what Javik does.

Arbitrary opinion is arbitrary.

[Grubas]

/intermission
Hi i just made a poll regarding EC and IT for satisfied people only.
http://social.biowar.../3880116/polls/

/end intermission

Modifié par Grubas, 06 novembre 2012 - 07:14 .

[Ieldra]

Can we please stop this IT nonsense from intruding everywhere? Also, one person's space magic is another's sufficiently advanced technology. People just call it space magic when they don't like it. And that's the end of it. Suggestive *terminology* like Mac Walters used in the description, that's a different matter altogether, but since this is an SF universe we come up with appropriate interpretations for the reality of it that make sense in in-world logic.

[ghost9191]

eh it isn't space magic. clearly it is black magic

as said before though, synthesis does take a lot of thought but is not the reason i don't choose it. shouldn't be something that is forced on the whole galaxy . too much of a change , that kinda thing.

the ends will probably justify the means. but it might take a generation for ppl to think that .tried to bring it back to synthesis .

but also destroy ends the threat, other 2 leave the possibility of it not working. or changing the reapers. then we would have blown our chance. that and 30secs isn't enough time to explain synthesis .

oh and i don't like the color green . glowing it would suck. now purple. f*ck yeah , be awesome to have purple eyes , even blue. glowing i mean, mine are already blue , and beautiful

[DirtyPhoenix]

Grubas wrote...

/intermission
Hi i just made a poll regarding EC and IT for satisfied people only.
http://social.biowar.../3880116/polls/

/end intermission

Voted.

[DirtyPhoenix]

ghost9191 wrote...

oh and i don't like the color green . glowing it would suck. now purple. f*ck yeah , be awesome to have purple eyes , even blue. glowing i mean, mine are already blue , and beautiful

What if... each ending gave people glowing eyes and scars corresponding to its colour. Would you have liked people with glowing red eyes and scars? XD

[CosmicGnosis]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

You realize a lot of the "science" around dextro/levo stuff was shoddy at best, right?

Actually, could you explain it to me? I've seen other people make this claim, but they never explain what they mean.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 07 novembre 2012 - 05:38 .