9087 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

I can absolutely make the comparison. Saving/Destroying the Rachni had a completely unknown outcome. Arrival was precisely as desperate as using the Crucible.

I agree that the scale is different, but that's frankly irrelevant. The stakes are the same - annihilation or action.

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I can absolutely make the comparison. Saving/Destroying the Rachni had a completely unknown outcome. Arrival was precisely as desperate as using the Crucible.

I agree that the scale is different, but that's frankly irrelevant. The stakes are the same - annihilation or action.

Seriously made me laugh.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I can absolutely make the comparison. Saving/Destroying the Rachni had a completely unknown outcome. Arrival was precisely as desperate as using the Crucible.

I agree that the scale is different, but that's frankly irrelevant. The stakes are the same - annihilation or action.

I seem to recall being told that the Krogans defeated the Rachnii? Did I remember that incorrectly?

The Rachnii will never achieve the same level of power they had before. They have one queen yes? They can easily be wiped out again.

The Reapers are a FAR greater threat and you affect everyone at once with Synthesis.

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I can absolutely make the comparison. Saving/Destroying the Rachni had a completely unknown outcome.

You had plenty of information to make the choice. It was also made under the assumption that we would see the pay-off. 

We did, the difference is insignificant.. 

Arrival was precisely as desperate as using the Crucible.

There is no choice in Arrival. 

[Taboo]

You had a major choice in Arrival?

I'm pretty sure the Batarians die whether I warn them or not.

[Heeden]

antares_sublight wrote...

My cells are not independent life forms competing in an ecosystem that they've evolved to fit into in just a certain way. You're not only oversimplifying it, you're making a false comparison.

Yes they are. They respond according to chemical and electrical stimuli provided by other systems but each individual cell still grows and develop independently according to its nature.

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

My cells are not independent life forms competing in an ecosystem that they've evolved to fit into in just a certain way. You're not only oversimplifying it, you're making a false comparison.

Yes they are. They respond according to chemical and electrical stimuli provided by other systems but each individual cell still grows and develop independently according to its nature.

Which is unfortunately why we have cancer.

[The Night Mammoth]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You had a major choice in Arrival?

I'm pretty sure the Batarians die whether I warn them or not.

Exactly. There isn't a choice. You have to destroy the Relay and the Batarians die. The comparison is false. 

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

You justify your actions based upon smaller decisions that do not affect everyone immediately.

That's faulty logic.

It's only a matte of scale - throughout the Mass Effect series you are making choices that have unpredictable effects based on ideas you pick up from playing the game and interacting with NPCs. It's up to you to decide what's right or wrong for the galaxy.

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

Seriously made me laugh.

You know that's not actually an argument, right?

Taboo-XX wrote...

I seem to recall being told that the Krogans defeated the Rachnii? Did I remember that incorrectly?

The Rachnii will never achieve the same level of power they had before. They have one queen yes? They can easily be wiped out again.

The Reapers are a FAR greater threat and you affect everyone at once with Synthesis.

The Krogan of the Rachni Wars days and the Krogan of today are quite different, thanks in no small part to the genophage, which was not cured at the time that you made the Rachni decision. And the sheer number of new Rachni produced by the one queen (or even the Reaper's frankenstein) in the time since ME1 and ME3 belies your assertion.

The Night Mammoth wrote...


There is no choice in Arrival. 

There's no choice here either; you have to use the Crucible. So it comes down to the specific applications, one of which is extremely risky as far as addressing the immediate threat, and the other has a brutally high cost (for paragons.)

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 23 mai 2012 - 06:39 .

[antares_sublight]

Heeden wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

My cells are not independent life forms competing in an ecosystem that they've evolved to fit into in just a certain way. You're not only oversimplifying it, you're making a false comparison.

Yes they are. They respond according to chemical and electrical stimuli provided by other systems but each individual cell still grows and develop independently according to its nature.

And each cell was created based on a single DNA blueprint to fulfill a specific purpose within a single organism. That is not comparable to a galaxy of independent, COMPETING life forms. False comparison.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 23 mai 2012 - 06:38 .

[antares_sublight]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Seriously made me laugh.

You know that's not actually an argument, right?

Neither is your statement that "it's just an irrelevant matter of scale". That "matter of scale" makes your comparisons invalid.

Modifié par antares_sublight, 23 mai 2012 - 06:39 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Optimystic_X wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...


There is no choice in Arrival. 

There's no choice here either; you have to use the Crucible. So it comes down to the specific applications, one of which is extremely risky as far as addressing the immediate threat, and the other has a brutally high cost (for paragons.)

Well exactly, you choose one of three options, or believe IT for whatever deranged reason, or stand there watching the fleet do battle for eternity. 

You literally can't choose an alternative in Arrival, there is only one outcome. The comparison is flawed. 

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

Seriously made me laugh.

You know that's not actually an argument, right?

Taboo-XX wrote...

I seem to recall being told that the Krogans defeated the Rachnii? Did I remember that incorrectly?

The Rachnii will never achieve the same level of power they had before. They have one queen yes? They can easily be wiped out again.

The Reapers are a FAR greater threat and you affect everyone at once with Synthesis.

The Krogan of the Rachni Wars days and the Krogan of today are quite different. And the sheer number of new Rachni produced by the one queen (or even the Reaper's frankenstein) in the time since ME1 and ME3 belies your assertion.

The Night Mammoth wrote...


There is no choice in Arrival. 

There's no choice here either; you have to use the Crucible. So it comes down to the specific applications, one of which is extremely risky as far as addressing the immediate threat, and the other has a brutally high cost (for paragons.)

Are you ****ing serious?

Seriously?

Did you see how many war assest they gave you? They are insignificant to the plot. They are worth a fourth more than a character I promote from Multiplater. Do you have cited sources telling you how many Rachnii there are?

The result is always the same in Arrival, the only difference is whether you warn the Batarians and gain a few Paragon points in the process.

[Lugaidster]

Heeden wrote...

Blood for the blood god? My ethics say a balance needs to be found with chaos to allow the growth and diversification of life.

I agree to a certain extent. The thing is, balance should be found by it's own, not forced. That's why synthesis is unethical (to the people that believe in free-will and self-determination).

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

antares_sublight wrote...

My cells are not independent life forms competing in an ecosystem that they've evolved to fit into in just a certain way. You're not only oversimplifying it, you're making a false comparison.

Yes they are. They respond according to chemical and electrical stimuli provided by other systems but each individual cell still grows and develop independently according to its nature.

A bodies cells nature is to be part of the order of the body...That alone negates your arguement.

Modifié par dreman9999, 23 mai 2012 - 06:55 .

[Heeden]

Lugaidster wrote...

I agree to a certain extent. The thing is, balance should be found by it's own, not forced. That's why synthesis is unethical (to the people that believe in free-will and self-determination).

That's why I didn't choose Synthesis with my Shepard, but I believe it is a grand ideal and one the galaxy should be moving towards.

To me it wasn't so much a question of whether the state is desirable, it's a question of whether it is right for our galaxy to get a short-cut there. It's like the idea of up-lifting civilisations - for some it may be necessary to prevent them self-destructing (but then they may not deserve the up-lift) for others it will just deny them the right to overcome the problems themselves (but if they're already pretty close it could save a lot of suffering with little down-side); but I would not say that up-lifting is objectively wrong in every case and certainly wouldn't condemn someone for choosing differently to me.

[Heeden]

dreman9999 wrote...

A bodies cells nature is to be part of the order of the body...That alone negates your arguement.

But it was once the nature of cells to be individual, at some point a change came where multi-cellular organisms came about. The only reason it is in a body cell's nature to be part of the body is because they share a common DNA - Synthesis will allow life in the galaxy to share a common "DNA" (Shepard's life-force).

[Taboo]

Peace, in the way we'd all like is impossible without oppressing people.

Marx thought he could do it by making everyone equal. Pfffft.

What he didn't understand is that people are just ***holes.

[dreman9999]

Heeden wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

A bodies cells nature is to be part of the order of the body...That alone negates your arguement.

But it was once the nature of cells to be individual, at some point a change came where multi-cellular organisms came about. The only reason it is in a body cell's nature to be part of the body is because they share a common DNA - Synthesis will allow life in the galaxy to share a common "DNA" (Shepard's life-force).

But the change happen natually...Of the will of the cells. They became one on there own, not force. We still have dells that are on their own.
That what your missing here. Your imposing change. 

[dreman9999]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Peace, in the way we'd all like is impossible without oppressing people.

Marx thought he could do it by making everyone equal. Pfffft.

What he didn't understand is that people are just ***holes.

Balance is the key , not order.

[Heeden]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Peace, in the way we'd all like is impossible without oppressing people.

Marx thought he could do it by making everyone equal. Pfffft.

What he didn't understand is that people are just ***holes.

Not impossible, just bloody hard work and there is no single "magic-bullet" that could guarentee eternal peace (which is the major problem with Marx's theories, people thought applying them would magically make everything fine).

Synthesis may not guarentee peace but it gives a very powerful tool to work with.

[Taboo]

Heeden wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Peace, in the way we'd all like is impossible without oppressing people.

Marx thought he could do it by making everyone equal. Pfffft.

What he didn't understand is that people are just ***holes.

Not impossible, just bloody hard work and there is no single "magic-bullet" that could guarentee eternal peace (which is the major problem with Marx's theories, people thought applying them would magically make everything fine).

Synthesis may not guarentee peace but it gives a very powerful tool to work with.

Which is my point. Everyone assumes there is a magic bullet.

It doesn't work that way.

[PsyrenY]

antares_sublight wrote...

Neither is your statement that "it's just an irrelevant matter of scale". That "matter of scale" makes your comparisons invalid.

Nonsense; models always extrapolate from small situations to large ones. That there is nothing exactly like Synthesis does not mean that we cannot find any parallels at all.

dreman9999 wrote...

A bodies cells nature is to be part of the order of the body...That alone negates your arguement.

And a tree's nature is to be part of a forest. A cow's nature is to be part of a herd. A wolf's nature is to be part of a pack. Again, how is it different?

Taboo-XX wrote...

Are you ****ing serious?

Seriously?

Did you see how many war assest they gave you? They are insignificant to the plot. They are worth a fourth more than a character I promote from Multiplater. Do you have cited sources telling you how many Rachnii there are?

The result is always the same in Arrival, the only difference is whether you warn the Batarians and gain a few Paragon points in the process.

An entire species only matters to you as War Assets... And I'm the unethical one? :innocent:

[Heeden]

dreman9999 wrote...
But the change happen natually...Of the will of the cells. They became one on there own, not force. We still have dells that are on their own.
That what your missing here. Your imposing change. 

I'm not missing that, I've already explained that I'm against choosing Synthesis for almost that exact same reason but that is for my own personal feelings about the state of the galaxy.

It does not mean Synthesis is objectively wrong, stupid or harmful.