9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

That you talked about it often doesn't make it true. Certainly the outcome is all good for all endings in some way. That doesn't change that Control carries a message about autocratic rule by a non-human intelligence, Synthesis carries a message about the melding of man and machine and Destroy carries a message about freeing humanity from all that creepy stuff associated with AI, especially hyper-advanced AI. Among other things. Those messages influence how we like or dislike the endings. That's not something you can reasonably deny. If you do, you might as well assert that everything we feel about the endings is the result of random chance. The story was written, it was intentionally written in a certain way, and intentionally retconned by the EC in a certain way.

Also yes, the original endings *were* a thematic stab at certain things. That I happened to like those things is incidental of course, but again, denying that it was such a stab is akin to asserting that the reactions to the endings were random. The worst part (the dark age) was retconned, but of course - OF COURSE - they didn't remove all thematic significance from the endings with the EC. I'm actually not complaining about it - after all, I have an ending whose outcome I like - I'm just claiming that those "thematic stabs" exist (which is a no-brainer, really) and influence why I don't like Destroy.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 novembre 2012 - 03:31 .

[KingZayd]

http://tinyurl.com/d288l54

Modifié par KingZayd, 21 novembre 2012 - 03:34 .

[Taboo]

If I like something I need to make sure to give a reason and attempt to justify the positive and negatives.

To "ascend" is certainly the aspect of Synthesis you've chosen to exemplify and that's fine but I must admit it bores me to tears. Why is jump starting something like that so exciting? Fantastical is not the word I'm looking for here but it's the best I can think of at the moment.

Surely overcoming the odds and taking longer to get there is more realistic?

All Shepard does is stop the Reapers in Destroy. Everything will be rebuilt, including Synthetics. That reminds me of a reset button not some Luddite fantasy ( although that WAS the implication I got in the original ending).

"Normality" does not exist. Believe me. It's a societal term, nothing more. Shepard is extraordinary. Miranda is extraordinary. People are extraordinary. And it time they will became greater.

REALISTICALLY.

[Taboo]

KingZayd wrote...

http://tinyurl.com/d288l54

Begone you! With all your accurate dictionary terms!

• ro·man·ti·cizeverb /rōˈmantəˌsīz/  /rə-/ 
  romanticised, past participle; romanticised, past tense; romanticises, 3rd person singular present; romanticising, present participle; romanticized, past participle; romanticized, past tense; romanticizes, 3rd person singular present; romanticizing, present participle
• Deal with or describe in an idealized or unrealistic fashion; make (something) seem better or more appealing than it really is
• - the tendency to romanticize nonindustrial societies
• - she was romanticizing about the past

[/list]

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 21 novembre 2012 - 03:46 .

[Bill Casey]

The war is over. The Reapers have been defeated.
Against all odds, and in the face of the greatest threat this galaxy has ever known, we survived.
We suffered many losses. The relays are severely damaged, but we won.
This victory belongs to each of us... every man, woman and child. Every civilization... on every world.
Now, as we took our first steps towards restoring what we lost, we must remember what it took to win.
This wasn't a victory by a single fleet, a single army, or even a single species.
If this war has taught us anything, it is that we are strongest when we work together.
And if we can put down our grievances long enough to stop something as powerful as the Reapers, imagine what we can achieve now that they are defeated.
It will take time, but we can rebuild everything that was destroyed.
Our homes, our worlds, our fleets and defenses. All of this and more.
Together we can build a future even greater than any one of us could imagine.



A future paid for by the sacrifices of those who fought and died along side us.
A future that many will never see.
And while we still have many challenges ahead of us.
We can face them together.
And we will honor those who died to give us that future.





Feel the anti-AI neo-luddite sentiment...
Ignore EDI and the Geth being treated as equals in destroy and "becoming alive" in synthesis...

[Steelcan]

^. What's your point?

[Bill Casey]

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's not something you can reasonably deny. If you do, you might as well assert that everything we feel about the endings is the result of random chance. The story was written, it was intentionally written in a certain way, and intentionally retconned by the EC in a certain way.

You deny the Indoctrination Theory...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 21 novembre 2012 - 11:59 .

[Eterna]

Steelcan wrote...

^. What's your point?

He doesn't have one. He never does. 

[Bill Casey]

Steelcan wrote...

^. What's your point?

Are you talking to me?
I'm responding to Iedra talking garbage about messages and themes...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 22 novembre 2012 - 12:40 .

[clennon8]

Bill Casey wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

^. What's your point?

Are you talking to me?
I'm responding to Iedra talking garbage about messages and themes...

To be fair, some Destroyers are robigots.  (yep, I just made that word up)

Still, I agree that Ieldra's take on Destroy (and its attached themes) is shallow.

[Ieldra]

Eterna5 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

^. What's your point?

He doesn't have one. He never does. 

Indeed.

@clennon8:
I didn't say Destroy can be reduced to the themes I mentioned. I just said they're present.

[cyrslash1974]

Imo, synthesis has non sense if you have already proved that quarians and geths (ie organics and synthetics) can live in peace. The reapers could be destroyed now, they are not "necessary" any more. It's why I think that the endings are bad or illogical. But it's just my opinion.

[Aurora313]

The Catalyst is meant to look hypocritical, the AI took its instructions fair too literally. The Geth and Quarrians are the biggest f*ck you to the Reapers supposed 'Synthetics always rebel' philosophy.

[jtav]

The easiest thing to do--and this hurts--would have been to cut peace and force you to choose. Then the idea makes sense. Synthetics are both feared and hated almost universally. I played Destroy and Synthesis with only the geth alive. Hackett doesn't even allude to mourning them. EDI talks about synthetics choosing their own path without fear. So, interestingly, true and lasting peace and integration requires both peace on Rannoch and Synthesis. Hmm.

[Vigilant111]

Aurora313 wrote...

The Catalyst is meant to look hypocritical, the AI took its instructions fair too literally. The Geth and Quarrians are the biggest f*ck you to the Reapers supposed 'Synthetics always rebel' philosophy.

Of course synthetics always rebel, but then so would any oppressed people, the Catalyst is not telling us anything that we do not already know, so why is it there telling us all these stuff is not something I could comprehend.

The peace on Rannoch shows people that mistakes can be remedied if we try, you know, even as mundane as just simply putting down your gun barrels

@jtav: The argument about the premise of "Organics vs Synthetics" is not based on whether peace actually occurs, it is based on how often it occurs and the severity of the conflict

Modifié par Vigilant111, 22 novembre 2012 - 02:31 .

[Falcon084]

You know I love reading the philosophical hypothesis, and H+ transhumanism cyberpunk ideas. But when it comes down to it the only reason I chose synthesis is because I like Edi and I spent so much time brokering peace between the Quarians and the Geth!

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

The easiest thing to do--and this hurts--would have been to cut peace and force you to choose. Then the idea makes sense. Synthetics are both feared and hated almost universally. I played Destroy and Synthesis with only the geth alive. Hackett doesn't even allude to mourning them. EDI talks about synthetics choosing their own path without fear. So, interestingly, true and lasting peace and integration requires both peace on Rannoch and Synthesis. Hmm.

if that was the case Destroy would be a lot more appealing.  The Geth can't be wiped out by the Crucible if they are already floating hulks over Rannoch.

[jtav]

I've been thinking about something re: Synthesis. Here's how I know it doesn't brainwash people. If it did, Wreav would still lead to a golden age for the krogan with the rebuilt ziggaruts. EDI would speak of something higher than synthetics finding their own path without fear--which still implies a degree of isolation--if the quarians are dead. Only worse case scenarios are prevented. It still requires a proper mindset to take full advantage of the benefits.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I've been thinking about something re: Synthesis. Here's how I know it doesn't brainwash people. If it did, Wreav would still lead to a golden age for the krogan with the rebuilt ziggaruts. EDI would speak of something higher than synthetics finding their own path without fear--which still implies a degree of isolation--if the quarians are dead. Only worse case scenarios are prevented. It still requires a proper mindset to take full advantage of the benefits.

Nice find! The quarians-dead scenario, which I've never seen, really fixes it. 

[CosmicGnosis]

According to the Mass Effect Wiki:

- If the geth destroyed the quarians, EDI states that synthetics are now free to choose their own paths.
   
- If the quarians destroyed the geth, EDI states that organics no longer need to fear their synthetic creations.
   
- If Shepard managed to achieve peace between the quarians and geth, EDI states that organics and synthetics can now coexist peacefully.

[jtav]

I think the closest analogy to Synthesis is something like the Agricultural or Industrial Revolution. It alleviates a great deal of misery--so Wreav can't find support for vengeance because things are improving for the krogan--but it's not a magic wand. Effort is still required and Shepard's choices still matter.

[His Name was HYR!!]

I think the issue with Wreav is transportation.

Destroy and Control both show the mass-relay system being rebuilt to stock, but they are notably absent in the Synthesis epilogue (as is the Citadel).

I'm inclined to think that the galaxy has moved past relay-transit, possibly using hyper-advanced FTL. The relays were only built by the Reapers to advance galactic society along certain paths, so there has to have been an alternate method to space-travel considering there was galactic civilization before them.

If that's the case, though, Wreav's krogan would be stuck on their planet and forced to industrialize since they have no ships (the Council demilitarized them).

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 22 novembre 2012 - 09:44 .

[Ieldra]

I'm not so sure about the relays in Destroy. We only ever see the Citadel. As for the absence of both in Synthesis, I think the idea is that post-Synthesis civilization will find some new and exotic way of travelling between the stars. I've described such a way - still based on the mass effect since otherwise it wouldn't be Mass Effect, right? - in my old thread Out of the dark age: relays, FTL and rebuilding galactic civilization. Pre-EC of course, but parts of it still apply.

The time frame is anyone's guess, though, and whether the krogan would be affected is pure headcanon. Personally, I prefer jtav's version.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 novembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[Steelcan]

A question that came up about Synthesis.

What would the impact of Shepard's "organic energy" be on dextro amino acid species. Shepard is levo, would this be an issue for the dextros?

Modifié par Steelcan, 25 novembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[Obadiah]

The way I looked at it, the Catalyst was not speaking about Shepard's physical matter, since any matter would have sufficed, and Shep passed a tonne of convenient dead bodies on the way up there already. The Catalyst must have been speaking of some meta-physical heretofore unknown hocus-pocus energy (maybe whatever it is that gets used in telepathy - dunno).