9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

A few selected replies...

[quote]iOnlySignIn wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...

(1) The scale of the thing. Affecting a whole galaxy is a hard sell, but the same applies to all endings - how would Destroy affect a Reaper far away from the next mass relay. Instantly?
[/quote]
The same way the Catalyst controls the Reapers. That is its function. Synthesis is not.[/quote]

"The Crucible changed me. Created new....possibilities". Objection answered. Also, it's pretty clear that the Catalyst had thought about Synthesis before.

[quote]iOnlySignIn wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
(2) The fact that the effect is instant. I blame artistic license for the scene on Earth and think that the process would take a few days.
[/quote]
OK I think it will take much longer than that but it's a start.

[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
(1a) As I said, the "how of it" isn't really important and I can only offer speculation, but I envision the green beam as a stream of FTL-capable small containers carrying nano-scale particle clusters through the mass relays and by non-relay FTL to the various star systems. These nanomachines make the change. The effect isn't really instantaneous. Others have speculated about extending the principle of QE devices to create matter transmission technology because if QE works, then theoretically matter transmission is also possible.
[/quote]
Yeah, that is the only plausible hypothesis I can think of.

But it's plain physically impossible because the total mass of nanomachines needed for all organic life in the galaxy would exceed the mass of the Citadel itself by many orders of magnitude. I can give you a detailed mathematical derivation of that but I think it's pretty evident.

The manufacturing of those nanomachines alone could take decades because detailed information regarding every organic species need to be gathered and evaluated. Such work has evidently not been done, since the Reapers were "hibernating" in Dark Space until very recently.[/quote]
(1) Ever heard of self-replicating nanomachines? They use materials at the target area to make more of themselves.
(2) Wasn't there a Reaper scouting the galaxy for at least 20 years, and possibly much longer? I seem to recall an entity named Sovereign...

[quote]iOnlySignIn wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
(1b) The Catalyst is not designed to control Reapers. The Reapers are its invention, remember?
[/quote]
Semantics. The Catalyst's function is to control the Reapers is what I mean and you know it.[/quote]
Actually, no, I don't know, and neither do you, it seems. The Catalyst's function is what the leviathans designed it to do. Which had nothing to do with the Reapers. They're just an accidental result of the Catalyst's function.

[quote]iOnlySignIn wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
As for how it can affect organics, see above and there is the example of indoctrination which should count as "affecting organics", right? There is no reason to assume it can't affect organics in other ways.
[/quote]
Covered this already. Synthesis is decidely different from Indoctrination because it requires physical materials to be injected into organics, as opposed to a long-distance action which influence only the mind (i.e. most likely pure energy).[/quote]
There is some evidence that indoctrination might need nanotech, too. ME:Retribution hints at it as well as Dr. Chandana's log on the derelict Reaper in ME2.

[quote]iOnlySignIn wrote...
[quote]Ieldra2 wrote...
(1c) There is still considerable uncertainty about whether the Crucible or the Catalyst is the primary agent of the three functions. Read my OP for a (quoted) rationale for Synthesis having been built into the Crucible by an advanced civilization.
[/quote]
Then why didn't the Catalyst mention this? Seems like an important point.

The Catalyst designed its own solution (the Reapers) which is to harvest organics. This implicitly suggests that no specific direction (such as Synthesis) was given to it by its creators in the first place - why else did the Catalyst come up with its own solution?

Moreover, suppose Synthesis was the original designed function of the Catalyst. The the Catalyst had purposefully, willfully deviated from that function by creating the Reaper harvest cycles. This makes the Catalyst an AI which rebelled against its organic creators, and destroys its credibility because it is essentially self-contradictory.

Finally, this entire idea is null and void after Leviathan anyway, as the Leviathans had explicitly explained their creation of the Catalyst, which has nothing whatsoever to do with Synthesis.[/quote]
What is your problem? The Reapers were a solution designed by the Catalyst. Synthesis is either designed by some species of a past cycle or by the Catalyst itself. There is no logical problem arising from either assumption, and either can be supported by at least one of the Catalyst's lines. Your assertion that Synthesis can't plausibly be effected by the Crucible/Catalyst complex on these grounds is defeated before it even gathers momentum.

[Ieldra]

CosmicGnosis wrote...
1. I know about your interpretation of Destroy in general, but do you think that the EC has somewhat confused the choice's thematic implications? Technology is damaged, but it can be rebuilt. The only real downside is that synthetics are killed. And there are also Destroy fans who don't embrace any kind of neo-Luddite philosophy. I guess I'm saying that the EC compromised the "artistic integrity" of high-EMS Destroy, in that the recovery process is simply too easy and the synthetic annihilation is almost completely ignored.

Yes, I think the writers compromised their artistic vision with the retcon. That goes for all of the EC endings in different degrees, but for high-EMS Destroy especially. Closer thematic adherence would have resulted in a bad Destroy ending: the relays gone for good and all synthetics dead. I guess that wasn't considered acceptable after the sh*tstorm caused by the original endings. It might have been accepted if spelled out as part of the original endings, if an epilogue with hopeful images for the future had been included, but with the OE being so soul-crushingly depressing, a "clarification" like that would've been like adding insult to injury. A positive vision was desperately needed for everyone, regardless of thematic adherence, and those who still want the theme intact can choose a lower-EMS variant and they'll have it.

(Edit: Note that the high EMS epilogue is still open to the interpretation that the relays are gone for good. We only see the Citadel rebuilt, of the relays we only see burnt-up husks, and the Catalyst's statement about things being repairable is very general).

About players choosing Destroy for different reasons: The themes "free the galaxy from the legacy of the Reapers forever, including their technology i.e. the relays" and "preserve the integrity of organic life against the domination and intrusion of the machines" are clearly visible and exist regardless of whether or not they match the reasons of the players choosing Destroy. I don't choose Synthesis because I subscribe to "we can't overcome our differences without being physically changed", still the theme is regrettably visible in Synthesis, and I have to deal with the fallout.

2. Control's ending has an ominous soundtrack. Do you think this implies something sinister, or does it just show that the Reapers are not exactly cuddly teddy bears?

I think it indicates that Shepard has become more than human, a god-like entity whose actions are hard to predict. Considering the reality of such an entity might make a human shudder even if it's ultimately benevolent.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:20 .

[Ieldra]

IsaacShep wrote...

krukow wrote...

Synthesis has to be a living hell for every single husk/marauder/banshee/etc. To be forced to live sentiently as THAT.

I mean, Cannibals are a mix of different species.

Ugh, synthesis is such an ugly, ugly option...

Yeah, I really think they shouldn't have added that in EC. The implications are just horrific for those husk people :/

Do the awakened husks have the identity of those they were made from? It doesn't seem plausible to me. I think they're continuing as avatars of their respective Reapers, or of minds of past cycles re-incarnated in them, retaining a connection to their Reaper. In that case, the bodies would be alien to the minds inhabiting them, but not felt as perversions of their old form.

Also, it might be possible to restore the old bodies. The Reapers stored their DNA after all.

Third, for the sake of my sanity I will assume that the Reaper minions created from several species will simply drop dead. 

Steelcan wrote...
News report post synthesis

"Every single reaper husk seems to have simultaneously committed suicide. No one is grieving"

Is that anything official?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:11 .

[Ieldra]

Optimystic_X wrote...
It greatly heartens me to see this thread still going. Keep it up Ieldra2, you were right all along!

You have no idea how relieved I felt when I watched the EC Synthesis epilogue for the first time. I was a little late in playing the EC, as usual, because of time zones, and someone had PMed me "Synthesis is everything we hoped for" so I knew it should be good. Still, I some fear remained that the EC would tell us in excruciating detail how thoroughly the galaxy was f*cked.

Anyway, this thread has seen some interesting debate along with the many instances of "standard anti-Synthesis hate speech" and IT cult intrusions. I wish I could make more internal links for the OP, but I've reached the maximum post size.

[TheProtheans]

Damn that is sad.
I would hate to have been changed into an abomination just because some fool wanted to violate the galaxy without it's consent
Changing me into having different views and transforming my body into something disgusting.

No, no it can not be forced.
This is essentially a NWO or in this case a NGO and it's not fun.
Your life as you knew it is over, you have no freedom.

[Ieldra]

@TheProtheans:
(1) There is no indication you'll have different views post-Synthesis, though the views you acquire as a result of other things being changed might be different from those you'd have otherwise acquired.
(2) Nobody is transformed into anything "disgusting".
(3) You'll have all the freedom you had previously. Synthesis makes ONE decision for you.
(4) Abominations aren't. There is no such thing as an invalid form of life. For the rest, see (2) above.

[Steelcan]

Ieldra, how do you explain Wreav's complete 180 in synthesis? You say it doesn't change people but it seems to alter him.

[TheProtheans]

Yes getting converted into a green machine is not disgusting.
Please, you can't sugarcoat it.

They're violated just like the mages in DA.

[Andromidius]

Friendly advice from the IT thread. Ignore TheProtheans, he's been trolling us as well.

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...
Ieldra, how do you explain Wreav's complete 180 in synthesis? You say it doesn't change people but it seems to alter him.

I think Wreav is implied to be less hostile because the writers didn't want to taint Synthesis with something undeniably bad. Which is a stupid reason of course, but there it is.

As for an in-world explanation, there could be any number of reasons. Maybe he just got killed.

@Andromidius:
Thanks for the info.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 décembre 2012 - 02:11 .

[PsyrenY]

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra, how do you explain Wreav's complete 180 in synthesis? You say it doesn't change people but it seems to alter him.

Enlightenment? At the very least, gaining the synthetic ability to communicate mind-to-mind would eliminate a great deal of empathy/understanding barriers that organics have to struggle with on a daily basis.

Wreav would still have the same upbringing, the same desires for honor/glory etc. What would change would be his perspective.

[Steelcan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra, how do you explain Wreav's complete 180 in synthesis? You say it doesn't change people but it seems to alter him.

Enlightenment? At the very least, gaining the synthetic ability to communicate mind-to-mind would eliminate a great deal of empathy/understanding barriers that organics have to struggle with on a daily basis.

Wreav would still have the same upbringing, the same desires for honor/glory etc. What would change would be his perspective.

. Wreav is a bloodthirsty barbarian.  He doesn't care about understanding, he wants to fight.

[jtav]

My preferred interpretation is that Synthesis improved things for the krogan and so they told Wreav what he could do with his plans for war.

[Taboo]

A change in perspective is still a change. It's worse than that trite old Hollywood cliche of having someone give a speech in a crowded room and have everyone change their minds because the speech was just too damn good.

Of course, I too would be convinced to give up my corruption if Jimmy Stewart gave a rousing speech.

[Steelcan]

jtav wrote...

My preferred interpretation is that Synthesis improved things for the krogan and so they told Wreav what he could do with his plans for war.

. But they aren't  rebelling for economic reason.  Wreav wants revenge and blood.  And I can't say I blame him.

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

My preferred interpretation is that Synthesis improved things for the krogan and so they told Wreav what he could do with his plans for war.

. But they aren't  rebelling for economic reason.  Wreav wants revenge and blood.  And I can't say I blame him.

You are not making a counterpoint, Steelcan. Read again what jtav said. In this scenario Wreav hasn't changed, but with things improved for the krogan, too many other krogan told him where he could stick his plans for war. Also, what Optimystic_X said.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 décembre 2012 - 04:57 .

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

My preferred interpretation is that Synthesis improved things for the krogan and so they told Wreav what he could do with his plans for war.

. But they aren't  rebelling for economic reason.  Wreav wants revenge and blood.  And I can't say I blame him.

You are not making a counterpoint, Steelcan. Read again what jtav said. In this scenario Wreav hasn't changed, but with things improved for the krogan, too many other krogan told him where he could stick his plans for war. Also, what Optimystic_X said.

. "Wreav isn't the only Krogan who wants revenge". "If enough males want war, I'm not sure Wrex can stop them". Wreav is not alone in wanting revenge for the genophage, I doubt added "perspective" will stop them.

[Taboo]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You are not making a counterpoint, Steelcan. Read again what jtav said. In this scenario Wreav hasn't changed, but with things improved for the krogan, too many other krogan told him where he could stick his plans for war. Also, what Optimystic_X said.

I am.

Improving testicular fortitude is still a change, which is all he's pointing out. 

It's one of those "Wake Up" scenario those nutty Libertarians are talking about.

"OMG U R SHEEPLE!"

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

jtav wrote...

My preferred interpretation is that Synthesis improved things for the krogan and so they told Wreav what he could do with his plans for war.

. But they aren't  rebelling for economic reason.  Wreav wants revenge and blood.  And I can't say I blame him.

You are not making a counterpoint, Steelcan. Read again what jtav said. In this scenario Wreav hasn't changed, but with things improved for the krogan, too many other krogan told him where he could stick his plans for war. Also, what Optimystic_X said.

. "Wreav isn't the only Krogan who wants revenge". "If enough males want war, I'm not sure Wrex can stop them". Wreav is not alone in wanting revenge for the genophage, I doubt added "perspective" will stop them.

We're shown images suggesting that a war big enough to make it into the epilogue doesn't happen within the time frame covered by the epilogue. There can be any number of reasons. I and others have pointed out a few possible and plausible ones. If you don't want to believe them, that's your problem.

[PsyrenY]

Quite obviously Synthesis changes something. So what?

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...
We're shown images suggesting that a war big enough to make it into the epilogue doesn't happen within the time frame covered by the epilogue. There can be any number of reasons. I and others have pointed out a few possible and plausible ones. If you don't want to believe them, that's your problem.

. I understand it doesn't happen, but why doesn't it happen?  You say that synthesis does not change people, but it does seem to have altered Krogan such as Wreav, but that is my interpretation.  So we can just leave it there?

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Quite obviously Synthesis changes something. So what?

It's not thematically relevant and the execution is so terrible Uwe Boll laughed at it.

I've always liked the benefits, but it's in the wrong story. From a thematic standpoint it's a third wheel, an extra leg. Control, Destroy and Refuse are thematically relevant.

But only refuse is an ending where you fail.

TERRIBLY.

Modifié par Taboo-XX, 04 décembre 2012 - 05:24 .

[Steelcan]

Control is thematically relevant, but Control as presented by the Catalyst is just as left field riding a meteor as Synthesis.

TIM never knew about the Catalyst. His manner f Control is very different.

[PsyrenY]

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's not thematically relevant and the execution is so terrible Uwe Boll laughed at it.

You know, I didn't recognize you without the chicken.

The theme is plenty relevant. Every non-hostile AI in the series has had just one goal - understand organics. This is the only ending that gives them what they want. 

[Ieldra]

@Steelcan:
You started the debate with the preconception of mind alteration, not I. Since it is structurally impossible to prove by evidence that anything not explicitly denied by the story does not happen, I can't give you proof that it doesn't happen. I invoke Russell's teapot: it's your task to provide plausible evidence that it does happen, not mine that it doesn't.