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[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Steelcan:
You started the debate with the preconception of mind alteration, not I. Since it is structurally impossible to prove by evidence that anything not explicitly denied by the story does not happen, I can't give you proof that it doesn't happen. I invoke Russell's teapot: it's your task to provide plausible evidence that it does happen, not mine that it doesn't.

. My evidence is the lack of a war scene in synthesis.  He does go to war in destroy and control.  My conclusion, synthesis has altered Wreav.

[Steelcan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's not thematically relevant and the execution is so terrible Uwe Boll laughed at it.

You know, I didn't recognize you without the chicken.

The theme is plenty relevant. Every non-hostile AI in the series has had just one goal - understand organics. This is the only ending that gives them what they want. 

. The geth don't want to nderstand organics, they want to kill them/secure their own safety.  The only one who does want to understand orgains is EDI.

[Taboo]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's not thematically relevant and the execution is so terrible Uwe Boll laughed at it.

You know, I didn't recognize you without the chicken.

The theme is plenty relevant. Every non-hostile AI in the series has had just one goal - understand organics. This is the only ending that gives them what they want. 

You are the millionth person to point that out. People are starting a "Retake Taboo" movement in order to get me to switch my avatar back.

That's certainly a theme, but not one of massive importance. The entire Synthetic v. Organics conflict is incredibly forced in the ending.

The point I always got was that all life was valuable in Mass Effect, humanism. in the end conflict would fall to us.

And would repeat again and again and again.

Such is life. Chaos.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Quite obviously Synthesis changes something. So what?

It's not thematically relevant and the execution is so terrible Uwe Boll laughed at it.

I've always liked the benefits, but it's in the wrong story. From a thematic standpoint it's a third wheel, an extra leg. Control, Destroy and Refuse are thematically relevant.

But only refuse is an ending where you fail.

TERRIBLY.

Meh. The "themes" argument is totally subjective.

The other day a Refuser made a thread about how the Crucible is not thematically-consistant (and therefore, Refuse is the only thematically-consistant ending). Maybe it is, but I don't need themes to tell me that any option to end the war right there and then is better than a straight-up fight (even if we could possibly win that fight).

Then again, I've always looked at ME as a game first, story second. And to that end... I play, to win, the game.

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Steelcan:
You started the debate with the preconception of mind alteration, not I. Since it is structurally impossible to prove by evidence that anything not explicitly denied by the story does not happen, I can't give you proof that it doesn't happen. I invoke Russell's teapot: it's your task to provide plausible evidence that it does happen, not mine that it doesn't.

. My evidence is the lack of a war scene in synthesis.  He does go to war in destroy and control.  My conclusion, synthesis has altered Wreav.

That's not a conclusion, that's speculation. Conclusions need to be actually conclusive. Wreav might have changed his mind because the contact with the civilizations of past cycles has changed his perspective, the other krogan wouldn't let him after *their* perspective was changed by the improvements on Tuchanka. A war seemed unfeasible because there were no other conflicts and he'd face a galaxy unified against him. Etc. etc.. As I said, there are any numer of plausible reasons which fit with themes of Synthesis. If you want to believe in mind alteration, I can't prevent you, but it's less plausible than other explanations which use effects Synthesis is explicitly said to have on organics, like using the knowledge preserved in the Reapers, or using the unified galaxy as a reason, temporary as it might be.

BTW, I wonder why nobody has asked why the hell Wreav goes to war in Renegade Control, with Control!Shep saying they'd "end the bickering of the many". That makes even less sense since it appears to contradict an AI god's stated objective.

[PsyrenY]

Steelcan wrote...
The geth don't want to nderstand organics, they want to kill them/secure their own safety.  The only one who does want to understand orgains is EDI.

I take it you didn't play Mass Effect 2 at all? Every line out of Legion's speaker is understanding organics so they can understand the Creators' behavior. You're thinking of the Heretics, who simply stopped caring.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

BTW, I wonder why nobody has asked why the hell Wreav goes to war in Renegade Control, with Control!Shep saying they'd "end the bickering of the many". That makes even less sense since it appears to contradict an AI god's stated objective.

Because RenShep says that if the genophage is sabotaged. If Wreav goes to war it's "so the strongest are not feared for their strength."

[Steelcan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
The geth don't want to nderstand organics, they want to kill them/secure their own safety.  The only one who does want to understand orgains is EDI.

I take it you didn't play Mass Effect 2 at all? Every line out of Legion's speaker is understanding organics so they can understand the Creators' behavior. You're thinking of the Heretics, who simply stopped caring.

. I was speaking about ME3, forgot about ME2 for a second there. And this was changed in ME3, the true geth ally with the reapers regardless of the heretics fate.  And that only applies to legion, the Geth VI makes no attempt to mask it's pro-geth views.

[PsyrenY]

Steelcan wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
The geth don't want to nderstand organics, they want to kill them/secure their own safety.  The only one who does want to understand orgains is EDI.

I take it you didn't play Mass Effect 2 at all? Every line out of Legion's speaker is understanding organics so they can understand the Creators' behavior. You're thinking of the Heretics, who simply stopped caring.

. I was speaking about ME3, forgot about ME2 for a second there. And this was changed in ME3, the true geth ally with the reapers regardless of the heretics fate.  And that only applies to legion, the Geth VI makes no attempt to mask it's pro-geth views.

They got partially blown up by the Quarians and so switched to survival mode. They literally no longer had the capacity to seek peaceful alternatives.

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That's not a conclusion, that's speculation. Conclusions need to be actually conclusive. Wreav might have changed his mind because the contact with the civilizations of past cycles has changed his perspective, the other krogan wouldn't let him after *their* perspective was changed by the improvements on Tuchanka. A war seemed unfeasible because there were no other conflicts and he'd face a galaxy unified against him. Etc. etc.. As I said, there are any numer of plausible reasons which fit with themes of Synthesis. If you want to believe in mind alteration, I can't prevent you, but it's less plausible than other explanations which use effects Synthesis is explicitly said to have on organics, like using the knowledge preserved in the Reapers, or using the unified galaxy as a reason, temporary as it might be.

. And to me Wreav seems stubborn enough to ignore all of this and still drag his people to war.  You can't convince me that Wreav hasn't been changed, and I sure as hell can't convince you he has, so I'm cutting this.  Agree to disagree.

[Steelcan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
The geth don't want to nderstand organics, they want to kill them/secure their own safety.  The only one who does want to understand orgains is EDI.

I take it you didn't play Mass Effect 2 at all? Every line out of Legion's speaker is understanding organics so they can understand the Creators' behavior. You're thinking of the Heretics, who simply stopped caring.

. I was speaking about ME3, forgot about ME2 for a second there. And this was changed in ME3, the true geth ally with the reapers regardless of the heretics fate.  And that only applies to legion, the Geth VI makes no attempt to mask it's pro-geth views.

They got partially blown up by the Quarians and so switched to survival mode. They literally no longer had the capacity to seek peaceful alternatives.

legion seeks a peaceful solution.  He is part of the true geth.

[PsyrenY]

He gave up on that in ME3. They all did.

"We regret the deaths of the creators, but see no alternative."

[Steelcan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

He gave up on that in ME3. They all did.

"We regret the deaths of the creators, but see no alternative."

. "There is a chance at reconciliation with geth, and creators"

"You think that is still possible?"

"Hope sustains organics in times of crisis,..... We admire the concept"

[Bill Casey]

Actual quote...

Legion: The prospect remains. If the Reaper presence is removed, there is a chance of reunification with geth--and perhaps creators.

Shepard: You think that's still possible?

Legion: Hope sustains organics during periods of difficulty. We... admire the concept.

Modifié par Bill Casey, 04 décembre 2012 - 06:51 .

[Steelcan]

Close enough, my point still stands

[PsyrenY]

Yet my quote came after that one (surface of Rannoch, as opposed to Normandy war room.) His attitude changed after Fool Gerrell's repeated assaults.

[Steelcan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Yet my quote came after that one (surface of Rannoch, as opposed to Normandy war room.) His attitude changed after Fool Gerrell's repeated assaults.

Mine comes from the Geth Consensus mission.

[PsyrenY]

Okay, fine - which still comes before mine, so... yeah?

Mine is right before Legion dies.

[Ieldra]

@Optimystic_X, Steelcan:
How did it happen that your viewpoints switched? This started with Steelcan claiming that the geth just want to kill organics, not understand them and Optimystic_X answering that was only because they were forced into survival mode by the quarians.

A few posts later, and Steelcan claims that Legion seeks a peaceful solution, contradicting himself while Optimystic_X draws attention to the lines where Legion has abandoned the search for understanding and sees no solution but war.

What are you actually claiming, Steelcan?

[PsyrenY]

My viewpoint never switched. I acknowledged (as your own post shows) that the Geth were in war-mode almost from the start of ME3. The important thing that Steelcan needs to realize is that they weren't that way until their cognition was damaged by Quarian bombs. Before losing their Dyson Sphere, understanding was their primary goal, like all other non-hostile AI in the setting.

Which brings us back (finally) to Synthesis, the only ending that gives our AI children what they've been yearning for since creation - empathy and understanding. And with that, comes our own salvation as we no longer have any huge unknowns to fear from them (and can keep pace mentally even if we did.)

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 04 décembre 2012 - 11:03 .

[Steelcan]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

My viewpoint never switched. I acknowledged (as your own post shows) that the Geth were in war-mode almost from the start of ME3. The important thing that Steelcan needs to realize is that they weren't that way until their cognition was damaged by Quarian bombs. Before losing their Dyson Sphere, understanding was their primary goal, like all other non-hostile AI in the setting.

[\\quote]
Their primary goal was agressive isolationism.  They kill any orgaincs that come near the Veil for over 300 years.  Then once they are baout to get annhiliated they suddenly want to be best friends with organics.  Legion however actively works for peace, but this is because he is an independant platform not connected to the rest of the geth.  The Geth VI who is not exposed to these organics does not bleieve in peace, it wants the quarians to die.

But I forgot why we are arguing this.

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Optimystic_X, Steelcan:
How did it happen that your viewpoints switched? This started with Steelcan claiming that the geth just want to kill organics, not understand them and Optimystic_X answering that was only because they were forced into survival mode by the quarians.

A few posts later, and Steelcan claims that Legion seeks a peaceful solution, contradicting himself while Optimystic_X draws attention to the lines where Legion has abandoned the search for understanding and sees no solution but war.

What are you actually claiming, Steelcan?

Legion is seperate from the geth, he seeks peace, the geth do not.  That's my point.

[Steelcan]

Ok serious question about synthesis.

Do any of you pick Synthesis because you believe that it is the best solution to the Catalyst's "problem"?
Or do you pick it for different reasons?

[TheJediSaint]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

It's not thematically relevant and the execution is so terrible Uwe Boll laughed at it.

You know, I didn't recognize you without the chicken.

The theme is plenty relevant. Every non-hostile AI in the series has had just one goal - understand organics. This is the only ending that gives them what they want. 

You are the millionth person to point that out. People are starting a "Retake Taboo" movement in order to get me to switch my avatar back.

That's certainly a theme, but not one of massive importance. The entire Synthetic v. Organics conflict is incredibly forced in the ending.

The point I always got was that all life was valuable in Mass Effect, humanism. in the end conflict would fall to us.

And would repeat again and again and again.

Such is life. Chaos.

See, for me, the overarching theme for ME1, ME2, and 99% of ME3 was tolerance.  Tolerance of all forms of life in it's many forms.   Then the for whaver reason, the ending jettisoned that and it became organics vs machines.

[PsyrenY]

Steelcan wrote...

Legion is seperate from the geth, he seeks peace, the geth do not.  That's my point.

You're still confusing Geth and Heretics. Legion+Geth wanted peace, or did until they effectively got brain damaged by bombs. Heretics never did.

Steelcan wrote...

Ok serious question about synthesis.

Do any of you pick Synthesis because you believe that it is the best solution to the Catalyst's "problem"?
Or do you pick it for different reasons?

That was one reason I chose it. The other was, prior to EC, Control seemed like a massive trap while Destroy was barbaric; post-EC, (Paragon) Control is actually tied with it for me. But Control could still be dangerous if another, hostile AI race achieves singularity before God-Shep can stop them. Nor will the Leviathans be likely to forgive even benign Reapers, which could lead to another galactic war with every lesser race caught in the middle.