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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#6576
Caliann5

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Just throwing my two cents in on the whole Synthesis issue... (and after just 8 months, wow, I'm fast). ;)

First of all, while I sort of (if I squint really, really hard) appreciate what Bioware tried to do with Synthesis ('tried' being the operative word here), I, or any of the Shepards that I've created, would have never chosen that particular ending. I'll explain why in a bit. That said, the fact that an ending doesn't appeal to a player, doesn't mean that such an ending - if done right - isn't a valid one. And here we come to the problem - it just wasn't done right.

This applies to the whole 10 minute mess that was the original ending (with the EC removing some of the glaring black-hole-sized inconstancies, plot holes and providing at least some closure).

Bioware created an amazing story, and that's something we can all agree on. Considering the shear scope, complexity and, yes, the incredible attention that went into the creation of the whole Mass Effect universe, it's not surprising that the guys at Bioware didn't want their (epic) story to end with a run-of-the-mill end-boss fight. Good call - I wouldn't want it to either.

They wanted their ending to be provoking and different and I applaud the intent if not the execution. 

Now, there have been tons and tons of threads that explained in depth why the Space Brat (that is it's canon name
as far as I'm concerned) just doesn't work as a plot device. To name a few reasons, we have: removing player agency, narrative inconsistency, introducing new concepts so late in the game with no foreshadowing whatsoever, introducing concepts late in the game that contradict the previously established themes of the game. I wont get into the whole circular logic argument (for me, its logic isn’t as much circular as it is fundamentally flawed, but can be valid from the limited perspective of an AI that was created for a singular purpose). In short, the Space Brat is a deus ex machina plot device where an unsolvableproblem is suddenly and abruptly solved with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object (quote shamelessly stolen from the Wiki).

(I also have a whole other issue with the Crucible as a plot point – ‘So we’re building this huge Prothean thing, right? … Hmmm… It’s a weapon, you say? … And we have no idea what it does? … Cool! Let’s do it!’ – but the situation is desperate enough for them to try pretty much anything, so I can let it slide. I also have a whole related issue with auto dialogue, but that’s neither here nor there.)  

Now, deus ex machina is a time honored plot device that has it’s uses, but it just doesn’t work here. Just a
few general points and I’ll concentrate on the Synthesis ending and try and explain why it doesn’t work for me from a story telling standpoint and from Shepard’s perspective as a protagonist (and if I missed some nuances from
the EC ending, i apologize in advance).

In general:

Why is the Space Brat offering Shepard these choices at all?

All we get is a vague line ‘the Crucible changed me’ (er, how? do tell… no, really) and that its solution “doesn’t work anymore”. In the EC we also get some more details about the creators of the Space Brat (a race that ended up as the first Reaper apparently, after being nearly wiped out by synthetics and creating the Space Brat as a form of defense… poor guys just couldn’t catch a break). After that the Space Brat – an AI that clearly has a huge bug in it’s programming - offers Shepard three choices. Now, consider this from the AI’s perspective, which is an entity created with a single purpose – finding the solution to the organics vrs. synthetics conflict, and the choices in short boil down to this:

Destroy

“No, Shepard, really, I’m kind of tired of this crap, so can you please stop your dawdling and push that red button over there, so I can finally get some shut-eye and leave this problem solving to someone
else. Man, my circuits hurt from all this thinking.”


Control

“You’re so awesome for a puny human that I’ll just hand over my immense army to you. How is it that you’re still just a Commander, by the way? Push that blue button and I can finally get some shut-eye, and you can try and solve that organics vrs. synthetics conflict all by your lonesome. Sucker. Man, I’m good.”

Synthesis

"I give up. You people just can’t play nice. I can finally get some shut-eye and my circuits still hurt. Oh, push green.”

See what I mean? Now, I suppose that the general idea was that the Space Brat had seen the error of its ways and the long run failure of its original plan, but the necessary leap of reasoning just isn’t present in the in game dialogue we get. For example, if we consider that each Reaper is a composite of one organic civilization wiped out by the Reapers in previous Cycles and that one of the mandates of the Space Brat is to preserve those remains and allow new civilizations to take their place, presenting Shepard with the option to destroy them not only doesn’t make sense, but should also be in direct conflict with the AI’s basic programming. Also, destroy ends all existing synthetic life in the galaxy, but doesn’t stop organics from making new ones. An acceptable risk for some Shepards, but is it an acceptable risk for the AI?

Control is also problematic from the AI’s standpoint – how would the Star Brat know that the entity that Shepard will become (awesomeness aside, we have all made some Shepards with questionable morals) would be able to achieve the purpose that the original creators programmed Star Brat with? Consider also that in the Refuse[/i]
EC ending, it’s clearly shown that we lose, so the AI should have had a whole new circle (50.000 years) to rethink
its strategy, if it is true that it had figured out that blunt aggression wouldn’t work anymore.  

(I have to state that I have less of a problem with the Refuse ending than with the rest - at least that ending follows the narrative, in the sense that it's stated multiple times in the game that we can't win using conventional warfare)

Basically, destroy and control endings are the equivalent of the AI throwing its hands up in the air and yelling ‘I quit’.  The only choice presented that actually makes sense from the Star Brat’s point of view is Synthesis, combining syntetic and organic life into a new life form. Wham-bam, thank you, ma’am. Problem solved. Right?

Kind of. If you squint.

Without even delving into the moral issues of rewriting an entire galaxy of sentient beings without their consent (that's Shepard's problem, the AI doesn’t care about that), or the issue of how for the love of god is this suddenly possible (the ‘Crucible changed me’ vague nonsense) – Synthesis, in my view, changes nothing in the overall
conflict between synthetics and organics in the long term for a few reasons.

1. I can’t suspend my disbelief enough to believe that the Crucible somehow transformed ALL matter in the
galaxy in this synthetic/organic hybrid (if someone can explain it to me, I’m all ears).
2. The new hybrid life form will eventually create new (pure) synthetics (for labor purposes if nothing else). Honestly, can you see the new hybrid AIs performing the repetitive physical labor that the Geth were designed for?
3. These new synthetics will eventually and unavoidably, if the Star Brat is right, turn against its creators.

I suppose one could argue that the races of the galaxy have learned their lesson and that after the war no one would dare create pure synthetics that could evolve and reach a point in time when their intelligence would become greater than human (or hybrid) intelligence.

Well, never is a long time.

More later on Shepard’s point of view and why Synthesis doesn’t work for me as a player.

Modifié par Caliann5, 08 janvier 2013 - 01:02 .


#6577
The Geth Spectre

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Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's a question for everyone who's interested:

Suppose the ending could be modded in subtle ways. How would you think should a Synthesis-like ending come about, i.e. an ending that mostly has the same ultimate outcome - maybe further down the line - but which is brought about in a different way?

@Taboo:
As I see it, there must be a living organism. Otherwise, I have no idea. I tend to invoke Belisario's Maxim here. The *interesting* topic is how sapient species are affected.

If I'm correct sapient means wisdom(by what I mean is how the organic is figure stuff out, self aware, and blah blah) right? The only reason I bring this up is because if destroy can't distinguish between the geth and edi and the reapers. Which in my opinion is very different. How will the synthesis figure out how sapient an organic needs to be to be blended? Which I believe is a very tedious and difficult task. I'm just trying to figure out what is affected? This isn't against you more against the lack of detail from the EC and star brat.

#6578
GHNR

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The Geth Spectre wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's a question for everyone who's interested:

Suppose the ending could be modded in subtle ways. How would you think should a Synthesis-like ending come about, i.e. an ending that mostly has the same ultimate outcome - maybe further down the line - but which is brought about in a different way?

@Taboo:
As I see it, there must be a living organism. Otherwise, I have no idea. I tend to invoke Belisario's Maxim here. The *interesting* topic is how sapient species are affected.

If I'm correct sapient means wisdom(by what I mean is how the organic is figure stuff out, self aware, and blah blah) right? The only reason I bring this up is because if destroy can't distinguish between the geth and edi and the reapers. Which in my opinion is very different. How will the synthesis figure out how sapient an organic needs to be to be blended? Which I believe is a very tedious and difficult task. I'm just trying to figure out what is affected? This isn't against you more against the lack of detail from the EC and star brat.


To answer your question, I'd say anything "organic" would be blended in Synthesis. As an example, observe the leaves we see during the Epilogue.

#6579
DirtyPhoenix

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That synthesized wolf looked badass!

#6580
The Geth Spectre

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I thought we were going to let the thread drift away......

#6581
DirtyPhoenix

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As for the Low-Synthesis scenario, I thought up a scenario like this a while ago:

LEMS Synthesis: Everyone gets huskified (which is what many think happens now, but I digress), Shepard dies
MEMS Synthesis: There are some collateral damage, people getting brainwashed, mindwiped etc, but mostly it happens OK. Shepard's brain gets mindwiped too.
HEMS Synthesis: Everything goes off perfectly, Shepard lives but she is now interrogated by the council.

Modifié par pirate1802, 08 janvier 2013 - 06:51 .


#6582
CosmicGnosis

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Pirate, weren't you a Synthesis supporter a while back?

#6583
DirtyPhoenix

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The Geth Spectre wrote...

I thought we were going to let the thread drift away......


I think we should thank the ITers for reviving it. =))

#6584
DirtyPhoenix

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CosmicGnosis wrote...

Pirate, weren't you a Synthesis supporter a while back?


I still am. I'm 55-45 between control and synthesis. My canon controlshep will probably build a consensus and initiate synthesis at a later time.

I like destroy too, minus the preaching attitude some of its fans have.

#6585
His Name was HYR!!

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Hehe, butthurt fanboys went postal.

#6586
Jake Boone

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pirate1802 wrote...

That synthesized wolf looked badass!

You mean the one on page 262? that's a koala, not a wolf.

#6587
DirtyPhoenix

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Jake Boone wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

That synthesized wolf looked badass!

You mean the one on page 262? that's a koala, not a wolf.


Its a gif. There's a cute koala which turns into a evil-looking synthewolf.

I like the badass wolf more than the cuteass koala.

:/

#6588
Jake Boone

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pirate1802 wrote...

Jake Boone wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

That synthesized wolf looked badass!

You mean the one on page 262? that's a koala, not a wolf.


Its a gif. There's a cute koala which turns into a evil-looking synthewolf.

I like the badass wolf more than the cuteass koala.

:/

I thought it was a synthesized koala. the maker was going for a before and after effect i think.

#6589
Ieldra

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pirate1802 wrote...
As for the Low-Synthesis scenario, I thought up a scenario like this a while ago:

LEMS Synthesis: Everyone gets huskified (which is what many think happens now, but I digress), Shepard dies
MEMS Synthesis: There are some collateral damage, people getting brainwashed, mindwiped etc, but mostly it happens OK. Shepard's brain gets mindwiped too.
HEMS Synthesis: Everything goes off perfectly, Shepard lives but she is now interrogated by the council.

Yes, I think something like this would let the story acknowledge that Synthesis is a risky decision and that the Crucible has to be built almost perfectly in order to make a good Synthesis ending possible. As for the HEMS scenario, I think the current political structure will not survive long past Synthesis. Also, it's still unclear what happens with the mass relays, and Synthesis is the only ending which doesn't have an intact Citadel in the epilogue.

#6590
ElSuperGecko

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Jake Boone wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Jake Boone wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...
That synthesized wolf looked badass!

You mean the one on page 262? that's a koala, not a wolf.

Its a gif. There's a cute koala which turns into a evil-looking synthewolf.

I like the badass wolf more than the cuteass koala.

:/

I thought it was a synthesized koala. the maker was going for a before and after effect i think.


I can confirm that both images are, in fact, koalas.

Koalas do not like getting woken up by having a bucket of water thrown over them.  Especially synthesised ones, it plays havoc with their circuitry.

#6591
Ieldra

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pirate1802 wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Pirate, weren't you a Synthesis supporter a while back?


I still am. I'm 55-45 between control and synthesis. My canon controlshep will probably build a consensus and initiate synthesis at a later time.

I like destroy too, minus the preaching attitude some of its fans have.

I've always said all three options are good in their own way, depending on your personal ideology. The one which makes me shudder a little is Renegade Control, and I'm thematically uncomfortable with Destroy, but I could make a good argument for either one.

Also, I have my theory about how the Synthesized leaves came into being: someone gave the artists the original version of the Catalyst dialogue and some general guidelines about the Normandy crash scene. The artists read the lines spoken by the Catalyst, and the scene with the Synthesized leaves is what they made of it. So now we're stuck quite accidentally with a plainly silly presentation of a world where everything from bacteria to humans integrates some technology. Thankfully, the EC epilogue tells us nicely how such things can come about accidentally - now the circuit patterns on Joker's hat are gone, but Garrus' armor has gained some. Sorry if I take the leaves with a grain of salt as well. There will be no Synthesized Koala's in my post-Synthesis galaxy.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 janvier 2013 - 10:44 .


#6592
DirtyPhoenix

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Yup.. ReneControl makes me shudder too. Especially the "Only now I realize the full potential of his decision". I was like oh crap, what monster have I created when I heard that.

#6593
Obadiah

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Once the final DLC is out, we need to mod Synthesis to try to remove some of the truly stupid stuff in there ("new DNA", circuit board skin and leaves). I'm cool with the "non-literal artistic visualization" explanation, but in comparison to the other endings, it should be made more literal.

How hard could it be?

#6594
Seival

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Obadiah wrote...

Once the final DLC is out, we need to mod Synthesis to try to remove some of the truly stupid stuff in there ("new DNA", circuit board skin and leaves). I'm cool with the "non-literal artistic visualization" explanation, but in comparison to the other endings, it should be made more literal.

How hard could it be?


Personally, I think modding is not a good idea in general. It breaks the game license agreement after all...

...I think everyone who understand Synthesis also understand that "glowing eyes/skin" are just temporary post-synthesis effect, or symbolical representation of permanent changes made to organics and synthetics. The mod you are talking about is not needed.

Modifié par Seival, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:03 .


#6595
Seival

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...Or maybe there is a compromise. It may be done in the final DLC, if BioWare will find the idea good enough.

Here is the idea. Green eyes/skin glows should be shown only temporary. For example, we see a sequence about Krogan just after Synthesis was applied - eyes/skin glows appear, hold for a shot time, then start to fade, and finally disappear completely. As a result - we know the Synthesis was applied, and no excess visuals remain. That would look similar to this sequence (player was notified about the permanent change by a temporary visuals):
http://www.youtube.c...5zEZ8Ml4#t=142s

Modifié par Seival, 08 janvier 2013 - 04:05 .


#6596
DirtyPhoenix

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Obadiah wrote...

Once the final DLC is out, we need to mod Synthesis to try to remove some of the truly stupid stuff in there ("new DNA", circuit board skin and leaves). I'm cool with the "non-literal artistic visualization" explanation, but in comparison to the other endings, it should be made more literal.

How hard could it be?


Thats actually a good idea. And it wouldn't not be that hard given we could just use the slides from the other endings. Moer difficult would be modding the cutscenes (if not outright impossible).

I wish we had our own MrFob.. :(

#6597
ATiBotka

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Hehe, butthurt fanboys went postal.


Poor IT guys, I feel sorry for them...

#6598
DirtyPhoenix

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^A hundred likes for your sig quote :D

#6599
Reth Shepherd

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pirate1802 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Once the final DLC is out, we need to mod Synthesis to try to remove some of the truly stupid stuff in there ("new DNA", circuit board skin and leaves). I'm cool with the "non-literal artistic visualization" explanation, but in comparison to the other endings, it should be made more literal.

How hard could it be?


Thats actually a good idea. And it wouldn't not be that hard given we could just use the slides from the other endings. Moer difficult would be modding the cutscenes (if not outright impossible).

I wish we had our own MrFob.. :(



"How hard could it be?" I hate to break it to you, but this game is very nearly unmoddable.  :pinched: The lack of ending and content mods has nothing to do with lack of people interested in experiementing, and everything to do with extreme technical difficulties. That's one of the reasons there's been people asking about Bioware releasing modding tools (much like Bethesda did with Skyrim, only they released them from the start). Since Mr. Priestly's back, I was going to toss him a PM on the subject. Would you like me to post his reply (if any) here as well?

#6600
ATiBotka

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pirate1802 wrote...

^A hundred likes for your sig quote :D


Thanks fellow assassin!^_^