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[Jake Boone]

I count 5 stars which is even better

[His Name was HYR!!]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 I was going to make a thread on this but decided against it, as it would involve too much feather-ruffling (even for one of my threads). So I'll just leave it here. I was looking at some ME2 stuff on youtube, and got to the post-Suicide Mission Legion dialogue. Three things, that Legion claimed to be everything that the geth aspire to.

"True Unity. Understanding. Transcendence."

It got me thinking of, not just Synthesis, but all options at the end of the game...

Refuse: Nothing.
Low-EMS Destroy: Nothing.
Low/Mid-EMS Control: Transcendence.
Mid/High-EMS Destroy: Unity.
High-EMS Control: Unity, Transcendence.
Synthesis: Unity, Understanding, Transcendence.

Looking no further than our particular cycle, I think Refuse implications pretty much go without saying. We cannot know about the next one either.

In "Vaporize" Destroy, unity weak to begin with (using EMS as an indicator), and what little of it exists is unlikely to last through the devastation and large problems ahead of them.

Mid/High Destroy's EC epilogue sends a hopeful message and seems to indicate that allied species work together and remain on good terms. Apart from that, recovery and rebuilding.

Low/Mid Control does some damage. Not as bad as Vaporize, but not much unity behind it either. Meanwhile, Shepard achieves a sort of transcendence, and the galaxy is shown to adapt with this.

High-EMS Control suffers no collateral damage and has a strong united galaxy. Shepard "transcends" and forms the Reaper collective into a new entity that coexists with the galactic community at large.

Then you get to Synthesis, and, well...


I always felt like the inspiration for this had to have come from subtle yet significant idea from within the narrative that somebody ultimately ran away with, for better or for worse, I could just never put my finger on it. Hearing that Legion quote again...

Page'd.

[Ieldra]

Thanks for repeating that, HYR. I might have overlooked it otherwise.

I recall that quote very well. The interesting aspect is that that unity, understanding and transcendence was Legion's interpretation of what creating a Reaper resulted in for an organic species. Obviously, Synthesis is nothing like that but it evokes the same themes. That's why so many people see Synthesis as the Reapers' solution, and it's why I named this thread "A *different* ascension" to emphasize that this isn't true.

It's also interesting because it appears to suggest that existence as a Reaper has some positive qualities. Which obviously could be true except that the creation process makes this assumption extremely questionable. The geth Dyson Swarm has similarities with what a Reaper is, as Shepard comments in the rare post-SM conversation with Legion you only get if you exhaust his other conversations pre-SM, but the geth join willingly, which makes all the difference.

What I'm wondering is this: in the ME3 endings, the writers obviously wanted the player to see that double-edged, ambivalent aspect to the Reapers hinted at in Legion's conversation, but why then did they make the Reaper minions and the creation process as horrible as possible?

Anyway, I like your observation. It hints at a possible rationale for seeing Synthesis as the best ending. Of course, only if you don't interpret "unity" to mean "being forced into a hive mind" as many of the Synthesis detractors do. I'd count an existence similar to the geth Dyson Swarm as rather not desirable. At this point in time, at least. I've just read "Childhood's End" by Arthur C Clarke. Its end might be considered good in some way, but I also feel it deprives humanity of a significant phase of its life as a species.

[Steelcan]

Well the geth might be a bit more pro-reaper than other species. Even the orthodox geth have to admit the Reapers are impressive even if not divine.

And I think the reapers are a victim of last minute changes. There is nothing ambivalent about the reapers' actions. They are monsters and come off as that. Not monsters in the sense that they are horrid abominations, but in the sense that they are unknown, immense, powerful, and hidden. But you can't shoot at a bunch of Sovereigns, so they need cannon fodder. And it would be odd if the other races were huskified into something that isn't repulsive. Human husks are zombies, why should the other races be different?

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...
And I think the reapers are a victim of last minute changes. There is nothing ambivalent about the reapers' actions. They are monsters and come off as that. Not monsters in the sense that they are horrid abominations, but in the sense that they are unknown, immense, powerful, and hidden. But you can't shoot at a bunch of Sovereigns, so they need cannon fodder. And it would be odd if the other races were huskified into something that isn't repulsive. Human husks are zombies, why should the other races be different?

Hardly a last-minute change:

Legion explained the exact nature of the Reapers in ME2. "Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within an immortal machine body. 'Each a nation'". Unpublished conversations on the CB explained it even further: the DNA is stored to preserve the physical aspects of people, the mind uploading preserves of course the mental aspects, so that the Reapers store the harvested people completely. Legions comments on unity, understanding and transcendence also come from ME2, and it can reasonably be argued that the Reapers have all this: they are unified species, have a greater understanding than all of their constituent parts, and can reasonably be said to transcend the species they are made of. Basically, the only negative is that the species are forced into it. 

All this is 100% compatible with the Catalyst's explanations, which is why I think it is the intended interpretation. But yet again, the presentation makes it all as horrific as possible, with abomination aesthetics and viscerally repulsive procedures with a lot of unnecessary pain which could theoretically be clinical and painless. The visual presentation and the exposition send radically different messages. Unfortunately, in a visual medium like a video game, presentation has more impact than explanation, and the result is that players make up interpretations that fit the presentation instead of overlooking the presentation and using the provided explanation. Which is why we have all the unreasonably negative interpretations of Synthesis.

Gah, what wouldn't I give to have an opportunity to speak with the writers about this.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2013 - 01:59 .

[Obadiah]

Legion in ME3 on the Reapers: "They are magnitudes above us. A single thought was immense, overwhelming, unknowable.... Their forms are advanced but mundane."

I'm not so sure about the "Transcendence" part of Control. When you hear the Shepard AI speak, it sounds powerful, but it is noted that Shep has given up his organic aspect. To me, Control is more of a transformation, and the Shep AI is basically operating on pure logic given all of Shep's original memories and morals.

Modifié par Obadiah, 23 janvier 2013 - 02:22 .

[gavgav77]

 Firstly, I must applaud the OP on a truly amazing thread. I've read the entire first post and found it fascinating. I didn't understand all of the references mentioned, but feel that I at least learned something I didn't know before.


After having become hooked in Multiplayer, my single player campaign stalled somewhat. For about six months. I actually only finished it the other day, when PSN was down for maintenance. Since then I've become fascinated with the ending choices and read a lot about them online. I had the vanilla ending, because I wanted to see what the fuss was about, and why everyone hated it so much. Since then, I've downloaded the EC to see the difference on my soon to start Insanity playthrough. For what it's worth, I didn't hate the ending at all. Sure, it was a bit confusing and raised many questions, but I found that interesting rather than frustrating. But I can see that the lack I closure must anger many people.

In particular, I've read a lot about the Indoctrination theory, and how the final scenes couldn't possibly have happened. Or, even if they did happen, surely the Synthesis option is what the Reapers were trying to achieve all along. Of the three possible endings - Synthesis, Destroy, and Control, would the Reapers want Synthesis only? Certainly the other two don't meet their goals.

Modifié par winawer, 23 janvier 2013 - 02:35 .

[Ieldra]

Thanks for the appreciation, winawer. If you have any questions about those references you don't understand, I'll be glad to supply the missing information. Also, kudos for reading the whole 64k post!

Also, about the question whether or not Synthesis is what the Catalyst (it has the agency since it controls the Reapers) wanted all along: possibly this is true. After all Synthesis is supposed to be a solution to the problem, but the Catalyst couldn't achieve it before. I don't know and actually, I don't care. Does it matter, if the result is good?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2013 - 03:25 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Thanks for the appreciation, winawer. If you have any questions about those references you don't understand, I'll be glad to supply the missing information. Also, kudos for reading the whole 64k post!

Also, about the question whether or not Synthesis is what the Catalyst (it has the agency since it controls the Reapers) wanted all along: possibly this is true. After all Synthesis is supposed to be a solution to the problem, but the Catalyst couldn't achieve it before. I don't know and actually, I don't care. Does it matter, if the result is good?

to assume that the catalyst/intelligence would 'prefer' synthesis is to consider the catalyst/intelligence as an organic agent. The synthetic intelligence, being geth,Edi or the catalyst 'want' stuff is to associatiate organic emotional responses. Logic would predict the improbablility of any synthetic life form would or even could prefer any choice.

They might logically conclude some form of changes be 'better' than others, but it wouldn't be a want or even a need, thats organics only trend, posed by nature it's self. Otherwise, evolution could not function as a by product of organic life. Intelligence only modifies the need organic assign to change. Probably why the catalyst could do it it's self...didn't make any sense to it.

[gavgav77]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Thanks for the appreciation, winawer. If you have any questions about those references you don't understand, I'll be glad to supply the missing information. Also, kudos for reading the whole 64k post!

Also, about the question whether or not Synthesis is what the Catalyst (it has the agency since it controls the Reapers) wanted all along: possibly this is true. After all Synthesis is supposed to be a solution to the problem, but the Catalyst couldn't achieve it before. I don't know and actually, I don't care. Does it matter, if the result is good?

Well, that's the question - is the result good? I assume that Synthesis is intended to be the harmony and unity option, which sounds lovely on the surface. But the result can go two ways - either all organic life becomes assimilated into the Reaper hive mind and all individuality is lost, or everyone retains their individuality but gains a common DNA. So since orangics and synthetics have shared characteristics and goals, conflict is ended. For me, the Synthesis option is very much a leap of faith where Shepard has to put an unreasonable amount of trust in the Catalyst.

Instinctively, I find that by choosing Synthesis, Shepard helps realise the Catalyst's goals which kind of goes against the entire fight against the Reapers that we tried to do in all three games.

[Ieldra]

@Wayning_Star:
If I may quote EDI: "I am not totally free of motivations", and there are other types of logic than digital propositional logic. Neural networks can have levels of preference just as fuzzy as organics have. It's just that those preferences don't manifest as emotions but are likely fully understood by the intelligence.

Also with regard to organic emotions: emotions are fast-tracked intuitive responses, but at their core they're just as deterministic as any program running on a computer, though possibly somewhat more complex. The results of those programs manifest as emotions coming out of nowhere because we are not aware of their roots or how they come to exist.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 janvier 2013 - 04:55 .

[Ieldra]

winawer wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Thanks for the appreciation, winawer. If you have any questions about those references you don't understand, I'll be glad to supply the missing information. Also, kudos for reading the whole 64k post!

Also, about the question whether or not Synthesis is what the Catalyst (it has the agency since it controls the Reapers) wanted all along: possibly this is true. After all Synthesis is supposed to be a solution to the problem, but the Catalyst couldn't achieve it before. I don't know and actually, I don't care. Does it matter, if the result is good?

Well, that's the question - is the result good? I assume that Synthesis is intended to be the harmony and unity option, which sounds lovely on the surface. But the result can go two ways - either all organic life becomes assimilated into the Reaper hive mind and all individuality is lost, or everyone retains their individuality but gains a common DNA. So since orangics and synthetics have shared characteristics and goals, conflict is ended. For me, the Synthesis option is very much a leap of faith where Shepard has to put an unreasonable amount of trust in the Catalyst.

Not more than in any of the other endings. After all, there's nothing to prevent the Catalyst from telling us basically anything about any option. It's a storytelling flaw. One rationalization for trusting the Catalyst to tell the complete truth is recognizing that at this point, the cycle has already failed. The worst that can happen is that you Refuse, and even then the cycle will be ended by the next cycle. So keeping things as they are is not an option anymore, and the price of Destroy is too small to deter anyone who thinks that destroying the Reapers is the only real solution. The price of Synthesis - forcing that global change - is higher and that and its unknowns work far better as a deterrent. So you'll only choose Synthesis if you're really convinced that the basic idea is a good one regardless of its value as a solution ot the Catalyst's problem, and since I speculate that within certain parameters, Synthesis is shaped after what Shepard thinks it is - otherwise his sacrifice (a variant of a destructive upload) wouldn't make sense - the result will be good if Shepard's convinced it's good.

Also, no, synthetics do not gain a DNA analogue. That makes no sense for reasons I have outlined in the OP. And organics will not gain "a common DNA". They already have that since all known organic life appears to be based on DNA in this universe. They may gain a few common genetic traits, but a single common trait will do nothing but increase the DNA the individuals of one species already have in common from something like 99% to 99.000001%. Adding a common trait really does almost nothing to impair individuality, since all other traits by which people are different remain as different as they were before.

[JasonShepard]

I've had a look through the OP, but it doesn't seem to cover this:

My main problem with Synthesis (aside from the massive moral quandary) is the question of how. How in the world does the Crucible give everyone in the galaxy cybernetic implants?!  I mean, that 'explosion' is apparently able to detect organic and synthetic life, apply cybernetics to the organics and give information to the synthetics. All in one explosion.

Okay, I'll admit that the Crucible is so far beyond current tech that I'm basically a cave-man asking how the internet works.
I'll also admit that the problem is (to a lesser extent) present in the other two options: in Destroy, the 'explosion' is detecting and destroying all synthetics (which could just be an advanced EMP. An advanced red  EMP) and in Control - well, it's basically a software rewrite.
But in Synthesis the Crucible is doing the equivalent of laser surgery to every cell in the galaxy. And that's seriously threatening my Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

So I'd welcome any explanations - headcanon or otherwise - for how Synthesis does this. I probably still won't pick it - on account of the aforementioned moral difficulties - but the concept will sit happier in my mind.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 26 janvier 2013 - 12:30 .

[Ieldra]

JasonShepard wrote...
I've had a look through the OP, but it doesn't seem to cover this:

My main problem with Synthesis (aside from the massive moral quandary) is the question of how. How in the world does the Crucible give everyone in the galaxy cybernetic implants?!  I mean, that 'explosion' is apparently able to detect organic and synthetic life, apply cybernetics to the organics and give information to the synthetics. All in one explosion.

Okay, I'll admit that the Crucible is so far beyond current tech that I'm basically a cave-man asking how the internet works.
I'll also admit that the problem is (to a lesser extent) present in the other two options: in Destroy, the 'explosion' is detecting and destroying all synthetics (which could just be an advanced EMP. An advanced red  EMP) and in Control - well, it's basically a software rewrite.
But in Synthesis the Crucible is doing the equivalent of laser surgery to every cell in the galaxy. And that's seriously threatening my Willing Suspension of Disbelief.

So I'd welcome any explanations - headcanon or otherwise - for how Synthesis does this. I probably still won't pick it - on account of the aforementioned moral difficulties - but the concept will sit happier in my mind.

Here's my rationalization of this:

(1) The beam isn't an energy beam, it's a stream of nanomachine clusters encapsulated in miniaturized eezo drive cores. I call them Synthesis agents. Other nanomachines present around the beam analyze Shepard as he jumps into it and pass the information to the Synthesis agents  Each cluster is then transported to its target relay and from there to a target system using non-relay FTL (that's what the drive cores are for).

(2) What Shepard thinks about how Synthesis will affect intelligent life will influence what it will actually do, within the constraints set by the Catalyst's description. That's why "all that Shepard is" (i.e. his memories etc..) is needed to effect the Synthesis.

(3) The Synthesis agents are self-replicating. Having arrived at their destination sytems, they use local materials to make more of themselves in order to infect the whole population.

(4) The transformation is not instant, but takes a few hours or days per individual.

(5) Synthesis only affects intelligent organic and synthetic life. That's of course against what the Normandy scene shows, but I see the interpretation that literally all life is affected as evidenced by the "synthesized plants" as the result of a miscommunication between the writers and the artists. It presents insurmountable difficulties that would make the complete scenario impossible. So I discard it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 janvier 2013 - 08:39 .

[kal_reegar]

Ieldra2 wrote...
(5) Synthesis only affects intelligent organic and synthetic life. That's of course against what the Normandy scene shows, but I see the interpretation that literally all life is affected as evidenced by the "synthesized plants" as the result of a miscommunication between the writers and the artists. It presents insurmountable difficulties that would make the complete scenario impossible. So I discard it.

why? If synthesis is caused by self-replicant molecular nanotechnology (good idea), I think that is more believable that all life (organic and not, intelligent or not) is "affected" by it.

somehow, a "benevolent" version of the grey goo scenario...

[CosmicGnosis]

To me, claiming that Synthesis affects only sapient life is like saying that Destroy doesn't actually kill synthetics. In other words, I have a hard time ignoring what is either implied or explicitly shown.

[ruggly]

Instead of posting a new thread on this, I'll ask it here (I'm not sure if this has been asked before or not). What about the races and civilizations that weren't involved in the Reaper war (and by that, I mean pre-flight species like the Yagh and whatnot), I would assume that they got affected by the green beam as well. That would cause all kinds of mind-****ery and freakouts for those that weren't involved. And if they weren't...well, wouldn't that make all of that moot?

edit:I'd have to watch the sequence again, but I think the beam only travels through relays that we know about. Could it manage to spread to clusters that haven't been explored?

Modifié par ruggly, 26 janvier 2013 - 03:33 .

[Obadiah]

I'm exploring the idea that perhaps the experiences of Shepard throughout the trilogy have affected a physiological change, and make the Commander the "essential ingredient" of synthesis. The basic idea is that the transformation has brought Shep's body and mind to a point of evolution very close to Synthesis. The beam basically blasted Shep's particles into the galaxy in some self-replicating way, and that's what causes Synthesis.

Consider Shep's experiences that may have caused the transformation:
ME1:
* Shepard was forced to mentally communicate with several Prothean beacons which were built to communicate with a different physiology
* Shepard received the Prothean Cipher
* Shepard has mind-melded with and been mind-probed by Liara
* Shepard is contaminated with Thorian spores

ME2:
* Shepard has died (or experienced extended brain death) and been resurrected with biosynthetic fusion
* Shepard was forced into a direct interface with an AI in Overlord
* Shepard has been in contact with Reapers and indoctrination influences
   - Sovereign
    - Dead Reaper
    - Object Rho
    - Reaper embryo

ME3:
* Shepard was forced to mentally communicate with (was mentally controlled by?) Leviathan

Questionable:
* Infected with Reaper nanides
* Endlessly self-administers medigel, which contain medigel nanides.

Modifié par Obadiah, 26 janvier 2013 - 04:40 .

[Ieldra]

kal_reegar wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
(5) Synthesis only affects intelligent organic and synthetic life. That's of course against what the Normandy scene shows, but I see the interpretation that literally all life is affected as evidenced by the "synthesized plants" as the result of a miscommunication between the writers and the artists. It presents insurmountable difficulties that would make the complete scenario impossible. So I discard it.

why? If synthesis is caused by self-replicant molecular nanotechnology (good idea), I think that is more believable that all life (organic and not, intelligent or not) is "affected" by it.

somehow, a "benevolent" version of the grey goo scenario...

There are several reasons:

(1) Lower life forms like bacteria can survive on icy asteroids and wandering planets away from any sun. Some more complex life forms can hibernate and survive their planet wandering away from their sun. I already have a hard time suspending my disbelief for Synthesis affecting all star systems in the galaxy with intelligent life, [b]including the 99% unknown to Citadel civilization[b], but the idea that Synthesis covers the former as well would totally break it. 

(2) Abiogenesis. There is no way to prevent the emergence of new organic life from non-living material, and Synthesized life doesn't come into being naturally. If it cannot be prevented anyway, what's the point in including life that will never profit from having a built-in tech interface, or not profit from it for a very long time at least?

(3) I find the notion of biosynthetic plants too nonsensical to suspend my disbelief for. Also, I cannot believe that the writers really intended Synthesis to literally affect all life in the galaxy. I simply can't. 

(4) Any concept of a "final evolution", or, to use a more fitting phrasing, hyper-advanced life, will always include intelligence. The idea of hyper-advanced lower life forms is self-contradictory.

There were one or two more contradictions which I forgot. I'll add them when I recall them.

[kal_reegar]

Ieldra2 wrote...

kal_reegar wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
(5) Synthesis only affects intelligent organic and synthetic life. That's of course against what the Normandy scene shows, but I see the interpretation that literally all life is affected as evidenced by the "synthesized plants" as the result of a miscommunication between the writers and the artists. It presents insurmountable difficulties that would make the complete scenario impossible. So I discard it.

why? If synthesis is caused by self-replicant molecular nanotechnology (good idea), I think that is more believable that all life (organic and not, intelligent or not) is "affected" by it.

somehow, a "benevolent" version of the grey goo scenario...

There are several reasons:

(1) Lower life forms like bacteria can survive on icy asteroids and wandering planets away from any sun. Some more complex life forms can hibernate and survive their planet wandering away from their sun. I already have a hard time suspending my disbelief for Synthesis affecting all star systems in the galaxy with intelligent life, [b]including the 99% unknown to Citadel civilization[b], but the idea that Synthesis covers the former as well would totally break it. 

(2) Abiogenesis. There is no way to prevent the emergence of new organic life from non-living material, and Synthesized life doesn't come into being naturally. If it cannot be prevented anyway, what's the point in including life that will never profit from having a built-in tech interface, or not profit from it for a very long time at least?

(3) I find the notion of biosynthetic plants too nonsensical to suspend my disbelief for. Also, I cannot believe that the writers really intended Synthesis to literally affect all life in the galaxy. I simply can't. 

(4) Any concept of a "final evolution", or, to use a more fitting phrasing, hyper-advanced life, will always include intelligence. The idea of hyper-advanced lower life forms is self-contradictory.

There were one or two more contradictions which I forgot. I'll add them when I recall them.

1) yes, very strange but this is what the crucible do.. the red/blue/green wave covers ALL the galaxy, otherwise is pointless... if there is a reapers fleet and/or a geth colony hidden somewhere far from the relays, we might have achieved nothing...

2) if this nano-tech has been spread all over the galaxy, new "emergent" life forms will be immediately affecteted. If synthesis nano-tech is self-replicant, the moment it "finds" new compatible "material", it will be "attacked" and trasformed.

3) ok, but I don't see why... I mean, at the atomic/molecular level animals and plants are not so different..

4) I think that the concepts of lower and higher/advanced form of lifes is... logical but not ontological. There is only life. Evolution doesn't rank and categorize. We do, and it is useful for practical goals, but we shouldn't think "it is illogical so it can't exist" (or viceversa).

[Ieldra]

^Here my answers:

(1) Targeting a few thousand Reapers is no problem. The Catalyst is linked to all of them after all. Targeting every single single-celled organism in the galaxy is beyond what I'm willing to accept.

(2) That would mean the Synthesis agents would need to continue to exist basically forever. I don't believe in anything existing forever.

(3) At the molecular level, the notion of a synthetic/organic difference makes no sense. There isn't any such thing as a "synthetic DNA". You can do whatever you want to DNA, change it any way, it will be just a molecule. A plant has no use for synthetic parts to integrate. Neither has a single-celled organism.

(4a) In the context of the ending, I don't take "evolution" to mean "natural biological evolution", because then "final evolution" would make even less sense than otherwise. I take it to mean "advancement as it affects the species itself". It's a common mistake in popular fiction to assume evolution has a direction, so there it is. The "final" doesn't make sense in the other interpretation as well, but at least there can be said to be a direction. Whenever evolution is used in the ME universe, it is meant in this sense, otherwise the Reapers couldn't claim to be "the pinnacle of evolution".

Apart from that, actually, yes, I am saying to certain things "It's illogical so it doesn't happen". I am willing to suspend my disbelief for a great many things, but not for self-contradictory nonsensical features. I choose Synthesis because I like the outcome, but I don't feel I have to accept some of the crap the writers have come up with in the context of Synthesis. I find the lack of a reasonably hard-SF rationalization insulting. In the small things I'm willing to live with it, but in the ending I'm not. So for me, Synthesis is as I envision it, with all the parts intact I can make sense of but without the rest.

Some people reject the whole ending as nonsensical. I do not, but I really can't fault them for it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 janvier 2013 - 07:04 .

[JasonShepard]

Cheers, Ieldra2. I can accept a horde of self-replicating nanites, even if it does seem scarily close to a certain grey goo doomsday scenario. I can even come up with a hand-wavy reason for why the plants might appear to be affected when they actually weren't - if the nanites were still in the environment, still scanning all life, then that would be the nanites that you're seeing on those leaves, not actual bio-tech leaves...

[Ieldra]

JasonShepard wrote...
Cheers, Ieldra2. I can accept a horde of self-replicating nanites, even if it does seem scarily close to a certain grey goo doomsday scenario. I can even come up with a hand-wavy reason for why the plants might appear to be affected when they actually weren't - if the nanites were still in the environment, still scanning all life, then that would be the nanites that you're seeing on those leaves, not actual bio-tech leaves...

That's a very good explanation. I think I'll make that a part of my standard interpretation. 

[clennon8]

Nanite dew.

That ain't reaching or anything.

[The Heretic of Time]

Good thread. 5-starred it. More ITers should see this.