9089 réponses à ce sujet

[CoolioThane]

I don't agree with Synthesis. Something about it, to me, doesn't seem right. I think it's because it's what the Reapers want.

[Sebby]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Good thread. 5-starred it. More ITers should see this.

Yep, a lot of thought provoking material in support of Synthesis on here. It's making me consider picking it for my next ME3 run.

[Belisarius25]

I'm not a fan of synthesis, but I wanted to say that this thread (well the parts I read, to be fair) were a good read and the OP was a great intro for someone like me who generally discounted it completely. It probably won't change my mind, but definitely a refreshing change from the usual topics or "I hate character/mission/scene [x]" stuff.

Cheers! *blows up the Geth and EDI*

[Ieldra]

Belisarius25 wrote...
I'm not a fan of synthesis, but I wanted to say that this thread (well the parts I read, to be fair) were a good read and the OP was a great intro for someone like me who generally discounted it completely. It probably won't change my mind, but definitely a refreshing change from the usual topics or "I hate character/mission/scene [x]" stuff.

Cheers! *blows up the Geth and EDI*

That's OK. To each his own. I've always wanted Synthesis to be accepted as *a* good ending, nothing more. If this thread helps with that, I'm content.

@all:
Updated OP with a link to HYR 2.0's thread How it works: Synthesis. I don't agree with two significants part of his (?) rationalization, but it's a nice ground for debate.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2013 - 11:18 .

[lord of dahorde]

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable being an organic/synthetic hybrid with glowing green eyes.
Though I must commend you for making such a comprehensive and detailed thread regarding synthesis.

[Steelcan]

High praise from Seboist.....

[Ieldra]

CoolioThane wrote...
I don't agree with Synthesis. Something about it, to me, doesn't seem right. I think it's because it's what the Reapers want.

That's an association fallacy. Given that X wants A and A is bad, it does not follow that B which X also wants is also bad. A villain doesn't taint everything he does with his evilness, just as any good he may do does not excuse the bad he also does. 

I think there are several aspects which influence how Synthesis is perceived emotionally and which are responsible for Synthesis rubbing people the wrong way:

(1) The "sacred nature" intuition. This is the idea that our physical nature is somehow sacrosanct and shouldn't be "meddled with". 

(2) The Reapers' "abomination aesthetic" - i.e. the aesthetically repulsive appearance combined with the unneccessary cruelty of what they do to organics. They and their minions a're presented as "perversions of nature", as things that should not exist.

(3) The fact that Synthesis appears to be favored by the Catalyst associates this option with the Reapers.

The combination of these factors results in the intuition that in Synthesis, people's bodies are invaded by someting - for lack of a better term - "abominable". Nothing in the description actually points that way, but this is an intuitive reaction, resulting in a subconscious preference for bad interpretations.

As opposed to that, consider that in Synthesis synthetics are changed more fundamentally than organics. Organics' minds stay untouched, synthetics' do not. You could say that synthetics lose more of their existential integrity, which is only mitigated by the fact that they appear to want it. One aspect of synthetic life - the fact that they are not by nature social and that their co-operation is based on mutual needs they're consciously aware of - is irrevocably lost after Synthesis. Reapers are synthetics. I wonder if they'd see such a change in themselves as desirable. I understand the geth seeing it as desirable, but the Reapers are made to be independent. I consider the change a loss for the Reapers, but a gain for organics.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 29 janvier 2013 - 10:43 .

[Obadiah]

lord of dahorde wrote...

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable being an organic/synthetic hybrid with glowing green eyes.
Though I must commend you for making such a comprehensive and detailed thread regarding synthesis.

You can probably customize the glow to red or a more pleasant color.

[Wayning_Star]

Obadiah wrote...

lord of dahorde wrote...

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable being an organic/synthetic hybrid with glowing green eyes.
Though I must commend you for making such a comprehensive and detailed thread regarding synthesis.

You can probably customize the glow to red or a more pleasant color.

but really, whouldn't a person have to HAVE them before they could actually tell if they liked them? IN the MEU, I'm wondering what 'LIKE' actually means anyway...

[dorktainian]

http://en.wikipedia....plant_rejection

just the tip of the iceberg. integrating foreign tissue into an organic framework. good idea batman.
death of everyone.  quick better get those cryogenic freezers sorted asap.

just think of it as putting a pcb into your arm.  give it a few months and your arm will drop off.

unless the flesh is dead....oh oh see where this is going...  

Modifié par dorktainian, 30 janvier 2013 - 04:23 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

dorktainian wrote...

http://en.wikipedia....plant_rejection

just the tip of the iceberg. integrating foreign tissue into an organic framework. good idea batman.
death of everyone.  quick better get those cryogenic freezers sorted asap.

just think of it as putting a pcb into your arm.  give it a few months and your arm will drop off.

unless the flesh is dead....oh oh see where this is going...  

No problem. Just put in some of those Adam jensen DNA. Maybe Shepard's dna was IT!

/sarcasm, incase someone's detector fails.

[Ieldra]

Well, Synthesis is supposed to solve, among others, exactly that problem. Organics' biochemistry will be changed to make the seamless integration of technology possible.

@Wayning_Star:
I think so, yes. Also, I think that people reject the idea of having "foreign objects" in their bodies they see as coming with Synthesis, rather than the reality which is described differently. If they'd wake up to see there are now so some cool things you can do and it feels all natural - as Synthesis is supposed to make it feel - then most people would get comfortable with the new state of things rather fast, unless they have some ideological objection. I think integrating the Reapers into civilization is far more likely to result in problems than what Synthesis does to organics.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 janvier 2013 - 04:36 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, Synthesis is supposed to solve, among others, exactly that problem. Organics' biochemistry will be changed to make the seamless integration of technology possible.

@Wayning_Star:
I think so, yes. Also, I think that people reject the idea of having "foreign objects" in their bodies they see as coming with Synthesis. If you'd wake up, see you can do some cool things and it feels all natural - as Synthesis is supposed to make it feel - then most people would get comfortable with the new state of things rather fast, unless they have some ideological objection.

It's really about public opinion polls and pesky status quo indifference to the choices. The thing about synthesis is the matching of goals vs choice. That is, there is little choice if the goal it be acheived. The problem is upon the MEU, there is NO choice in that for the population. But should Shep choose something that nothing or no one has the choice about?

I suggest that the nature of the situation in the MEU is based on the objective of nature it's self as the initiator of synthesis,as it is comprised of the decision(maybe bad) of Leviathan to expose the MEU with the option, via their technology. But, the only reason that tech exists is because nature created organics who advance through natural selection/evolution to obtain that very thing that could and probably will envolve the entire MEU. It wouldn't matter if they're advanced yet or not. This seems obvious because the synethesis acts on the basic of organic life, the root of organic existence. We're synthesised the day we became intelligent enough to understand it..and provide the means to do it..even if not realized yet.

Nature gives the choices, as in NO choice, if in reality, intelligence is a product of nature. Not just an abstract thought or process of reasoning,etc.

edit: is it real or is it memorex?

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 30 janvier 2013 - 05:00 .

[ruggly]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, Synthesis is supposed to solve, among others, exactly that problem. Organics' biochemistry will be changed to make the seamless integration of technology possible.

@Wayning_Star:
I think so, yes. Also, I think that people reject the idea of having "foreign objects" in their bodies they see as coming with Synthesis, rather than the reality which is described differently. If they'd wake up to see there are now so some cool things you can do and it feels all natural - as Synthesis is supposed to make it feel - then most people would get comfortable with the new state of things rather fast, unless they have some ideological objection. I think integrating the Reapers into civilization is far more likely to result in problems than what Synthesis does to organics.

If I could willingly, by my own choice, go in for synthesis, I would.  But as it stands for me right now,  it's not right for me to synthesize EVERY being in the galaxy (and I feel giving that sort of "gift" to pre-flight species is just a disaster waiting to happen).  These said species don't know about this war, they don't know about Shepard, and to involve them in this, in my opinion, isn't right.  If the races of the galaxy were to come to synthesis on their own terms, then that's jolly good.  Plus I'm of the belief of learning from our mistakes, synthesis just seems to spread magic green all over you and nothing would've been learned. 

(I also headcanon the **** out of destroy with Shepard coming out of the rubble and then telling the story of the reapers and why they did what they did, so we can stop treating AI's like second-class citizens).

edit: so really, synthesis is an interesting concept, but they really botched it.

Modifié par ruggly, 30 janvier 2013 - 05:13 .

[Wayning_Star]

ruggly wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, Synthesis is supposed to solve, among others, exactly that problem. Organics' biochemistry will be changed to make the seamless integration of technology possible.

@Wayning_Star:
I think so, yes. Also, I think that people reject the idea of having "foreign objects" in their bodies they see as coming with Synthesis, rather than the reality which is described differently. If they'd wake up to see there are now so some cool things you can do and it feels all natural - as Synthesis is supposed to make it feel - then most people would get comfortable with the new state of things rather fast, unless they have some ideological objection. I think integrating the Reapers into civilization is far more likely to result in problems than what Synthesis does to organics.

If I could willingly, by my own choice, go in for synthesis, I would.  But as it stands for me right now,  it's not right for me to synthesize EVERY being in the galaxy (and I feel giving that sort of "gift" to pre-flight species is just a disaster waiting to happen).  These said species don't know about this war, they don't know about Shepard, and to involve them in this, in my opinion, isn't right.  If the races of the galaxy were to come to synthesis on their own terms, then that's jolly good.  Plus I'm of the belief of learning from our mistakes, synthesis just seems to spread magic green all over you and nothing would've been learned. 

(I also headcanon the **** out of destroy with Shepard coming out of the rubble and then telling the story of the reapers and why they did what they did, so we can stop treating AI's like second-class citizens).

edit: so really, synthesis is an interesting concept, but they really botched it.

I'd say the 'botch', if any comes with the total mystery of its compsition, as many claim it 'puts stuff on/in them' foreign metalic objects and stuff of husks..terrible mind wrenching horrible nasty creepy crawly stuff that witches of new england dreamed up..n'stuff..lol

really tho, its all mental, other than the plant life getting a dose of that action..kind of strange to go back/down that low on the fauna scale, unless nature it's self is the object to get sythesised, not just beings of higher intellect,etc.

Seems like a total add on to nature is kind of my gist of it..

[ruggly]

Wayning_Star wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, Synthesis is supposed to solve, among others, exactly that problem. Organics' biochemistry will be changed to make the seamless integration of technology possible.

@Wayning_Star:
I think so, yes. Also, I think that people reject the idea of having "foreign objects" in their bodies they see as coming with Synthesis, rather than the reality which is described differently. If they'd wake up to see there are now so some cool things you can do and it feels all natural - as Synthesis is supposed to make it feel - then most people would get comfortable with the new state of things rather fast, unless they have some ideological objection. I think integrating the Reapers into civilization is far more likely to result in problems than what Synthesis does to organics.

If I could willingly, by my own choice, go in for synthesis, I would.  But as it stands for me right now,  it's not right for me to synthesize EVERY being in the galaxy (and I feel giving that sort of "gift" to pre-flight species is just a disaster waiting to happen).  These said species don't know about this war, they don't know about Shepard, and to involve them in this, in my opinion, isn't right.  If the races of the galaxy were to come to synthesis on their own terms, then that's jolly good.  Plus I'm of the belief of learning from our mistakes, synthesis just seems to spread magic green all over you and nothing would've been learned. 

(I also headcanon the **** out of destroy with Shepard coming out of the rubble and then telling the story of the reapers and why they did what they did, so we can stop treating AI's like second-class citizens).

edit: so really, synthesis is an interesting concept, but they really botched it.

I'd say the 'botch', if any comes with the total mystery of its compsition, as many claim it 'puts stuff on/in them' foreign metalic objects and stuff of husks..terrible mind wrenching horrible nasty creepy crawly stuff that witches of new england dreamed up..n'stuff..lol

really tho, its all mental, other than the plant life getting a dose of that action..kind of strange to go back/down that low on the fauna scale, unless nature it's self is the object to get sythesised, not just beings of higher intellect,etc.

Seems like a total add on to nature is kind of my gist of it..

And perhaps that bolded part and the crucible even being able to synthesize everything really, really, REALLY ruins my suspension of disbelief.

[CoolioThane]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...
I don't agree with Synthesis. Something about it, to me, doesn't seem right. I think it's because it's what the Reapers want.

That's an association fallacy. Given that X wants A and A is bad, it does not follow that B which X also wants is also bad. A villain doesn't taint everything he does with his evilness, just as any good he may do does not excuse the bad he also does. 

I think there are several aspects which influence how Synthesis is perceived emotionally and which are responsible for Synthesis rubbing people the wrong way:

(1) The "sacred nature" intuition. This is the idea that our physical nature is somehow sacrosanct and shouldn't be "meddled with". 

(2) The Reapers' "abomination aesthetic" - i.e. the aesthetically repulsive appearance combined with the unneccessary cruelty of what they do to organics. They and their minions a're presented as "perversions of nature", as things that should not exist.

(3) The fact that Synthesis appears to be favored by the Catalyst associates this option with the Reapers.

The combination of these factors results in the intuition that in Synthesis, people's bodies are invaded by someting - for lack of a better term - "abominable". Nothing in the description actually points that way, but this is an intuitive reaction, resulting in a subconscious preference for bad interpretations.

As opposed to that, consider that in Synthesis synthetics are changed more fundamentally than organics. Organics' minds stay untouched, synthetics' do not. You could say that synthetics lose more of their existential integrity, which is only mitigated by the fact that they appear to want it. One aspect of synthetic life - the fact that they are not by nature social and that their co-operation is based on mutual needs they're consciously aware of - is irrevocably lost after Synthesis. Reapers are synthetics. I wonder if they'd see such a change in themselves as desirable. I understand the geth seeing it as desirable, but the Reapers are made to be independent. I consider the change a loss for the Reapers, but a gain for organics.

Except in my opinion, it is wrong. Not only because of the "association" with the Reapers, but for the many reasons you've probably read hundreds of times in the thread 

[Ieldra]

Many reasons? Only one valid reason as far as I'm concerned: you're making this change to everyone without giving them a choice about it. But consider this: Synthesis is empowering. Integrating technology will give everyone more options, and a good denied is an evil. So denying this to those who would want it is also wrong, and the only reason why we intuitively consider the former more wrong than the latter is status quo bias.

Also, I'm a consequentialist. A good future is worth crossing lines for, and a very good future is worth crossing more lines for. Nonetheless, in any normal time I would not consider it justifiable to make this choice for everyone, since there is an alternative. Here there is none, if you want that future, if you want to integrate the knowledge of past cycles and their bearers into civilization, if you don't want to kill the synthetics, you must make this choice. "Synthesis after Control" is a feasible headcanon, but I won't see the future I like in the game if I choose Control. That is a storytelling issue and no in-world problem, but it makes a difference.

Shepard is standing at a fulcrum of events and has to make a decision that will shape the future of galactic civilization. I cannot make any other decision than the one I think will have the best outcome, and I'd rather sacrifice principles I'd hold to in other circumstances than sacrifice either the lives of my allies or that future I see as the best. As for those people who wouldn't want to be Synthesized, from a practical viewpoint I think the only ones who'd object after the fact would be those with the religious sanction against changing the body. In the situation at hand, my Shepard feels justified for sacrificing their concerns for those of galactic civilization as a whole.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 01 février 2013 - 04:46 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Many reasons? Only one valid reason as far as I'm concerned: you're making this change to everyone without giving them a choice about it. But consider this: Synthesis is empowering. Integrating technology will give everyone more options, and a good denied is an evil. So denying this to those who would want it is also wrong, and the only reason why we intuitively consider the former more wrong than the latter is status quo bias.

Also, I'm a consequentialist. A good future is worth crossing lines for, and a very good future is worth crossing more lines for. Nonetheless, in any normal time I would not consider it justifiable to make this choice for everyone, since there is an alternative. Here there is none, if you want that future, if you want to integrate the knowledge of past cycles and their bearers into civilization, if you don't want to kill the synthetics, you must make this choice. "Synthesis after Control" is a feasible headcanon, but I won't see the future I like in the game if I choose Control. That is a storytelling issue and no in-world problem, but it makes a difference.

Shepard is standing at a fulcrum of events and has to make a decision that will shape the future of galactic civilization. I cannot make any other decision than the one I think will have the best outcome, and I'd rather sacrifice principles I'd hold to in other circumstances than sacrifice either the lives of my allies or that future I see as the best. As for those people who wouldn't want to be Synthesized, from a practical viewpoint I think the only ones who'd object after the fact would be those with the religious sanction against changing the body. In the situation at hand, my Shepard feels justified for sacrificing their concerns for those of galactic civilization as a whole.

The unique part, imo, is that synthesis seems to include all choices,even refuse,as it notes the ideals of each choice in the end. Reapers controlled, obviously, Repears destroyed, because they're not reaping anymore,nor activated to be aggressive in that regard,actually the opposite endevour. And refuse, because Shep can just say its all an act of nature through evolution and most likely eventual. Thus the consistent END to the harvest/reaperthreat/reaperwar and the catalyst is nullified/shut down,as the "best case scenerio" has been most likely achieved. Chaos is muted, if not completely irradicated from the MUE, being is that nature it's self has been altered to "include" All Life, until onother form comes along to upend the balance as such. 

All good!!

[Taboo]

In quite a bit of popular science fiction, science is portrayed as progressive, but also fear. I don't believe that people should be hesitant to go that extra mile to make progress but I feel it should be ethical.

Most of the experiments in Mass Effects that occur outside of ethical grounds don't end well, in keeping with popular mantra. That's why I feel people dislike Synthesis so much. People don't have a choice and it offends them. Every other time we've been given something like this before it's been presented as bad.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 Random inquiry...

If EC was the orignal and only ending, would you have guys have still picked Synthesis?

I was just thinking about this the other day and I'm not entirely sure. My intrigue for Synthesis came from the original one. But in EC, Destroy really doesn't sound as bad as it did before (downright bleak), just that the damage would be what was to be expected and nothing irreparable. Then you have the catalyst projecting Synthesis into the future after explaining it. And sure, he may end up wrong, but it reaffirms the idea that it doesn't have to be now.

It should be said that how I decided on "my choice" the first time, and then again in EC, is complicated. But all things in, I think I'd have Destroyed if we got the EC version first. Maybe I'd have reasoned for Synthesis later and switched. Maybe not.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 01 février 2013 - 06:15 .

[CoolioThane]

It's not just the "forcing it upon the entire galaxy" thing, there's also the knowledge of Collectors and the Reapers themselves being "synthesised" and how horrific the existence of the Collectors is/was.

The whole thing with everything being implanted with the shizz just strikes me as sinister.

You can'thonestly think it becomes a utopia ?

[His Name was HYR!!]

CoolioThane wrote...

It's not just the "forcing it upon the entire galaxy" thing, there's also the knowledge of Collectors and the Reapers themselves being "synthesised" and how horrific the existence of the Collectors is/was.

Synthesis worked for Shepard coming back to life.

[Taboo]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

It's not just the "forcing it upon the entire galaxy" thing, there's also the knowledge of Collectors and the Reapers themselves being "synthesised" and how horrific the existence of the Collectors is/was.

Synthesis worked for Shepard coming back to life.

The Lazarus Project was a convient way to allow people to respec their Shepards and funnel them into working with Cerberus.

Synthesis is just there.

[Wayning_Star]

Taboo-XX wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

CoolioThane wrote...

It's not just the "forcing it upon the entire galaxy" thing, there's also the knowledge of Collectors and the Reapers themselves being "synthesised" and how horrific the existence of the Collectors is/was.

Synthesis worked for Shepard coming back to life.

The Lazarus Project was a convient way to allow people to respec their Shepards and funnel them into working with Cerberus.

Synthesis is just there.

metagame alert!!

really tho, the entire MEU was just 'there' and the chaos theory to placate,via the crucible+citadel+catalyst+shep=decision time... equation....(Leviathan as an afterthought..)

that equation pops up in the endgame..lol