9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Obadiah]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis actually intigrates reality, or nature with organic needs for technology to survive nature.

A redo... Destroy and Control speak for themselves, but are limited to their effectiveness in that regard. Basically the same old things, different day/millenium. Cosmic problems requires cosmic decisions, or decision on a cosmic scale.

Cannot handle your cosmic decision? Pick refuse.. let someone else decide.

Well that presumes synthesis actually solves anything.  Do you really believe it stops galactic conflict long term?  Conflict is driven by lack of resources as much as anything.  No matter how much you understand another, if it becomes a matter of survival of your family over another's...you know what you'll choose.

Synthesis doesn't solve conflicts. It just keeps organics and synthetics on equal footing.

It also allows Synthetics to improve Organics past the limitations that exists because Synthetics are not allowed to evolve.

[Helios969]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis actually intigrates reality, or nature with organic needs for technology to survive nature.

A redo... Destroy and Control speak for themselves, but are limited to their effectiveness in that regard. Basically the same old things, different day/millenium. Cosmic problems requires cosmic decisions, or decision on a cosmic scale.

Cannot handle your cosmic decision? Pick refuse.. let someone else decide.

Well that presumes synthesis actually solves anything.  Do you really believe it stops galactic conflict long term?  Conflict is driven by lack of resources as much as anything.  No matter how much you understand another, if it becomes a matter of survival of your family over another's...you know what you'll choose.

Synthesis doesn't solve conflicts. It just keeps organics and synthetics on equal footing.

How does it do that?  Are organics now as intelligent as synthetics?  Do synthetics now struggle with their emotions like organics?

[Ieldra]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis actually intigrates reality, or nature with organic needs for technology to survive nature.

A redo... Destroy and Control speak for themselves, but are limited to their effectiveness in that regard. Basically the same old things, different day/millenium. Cosmic problems requires cosmic decisions, or decision on a cosmic scale.

Cannot handle your cosmic decision? Pick refuse.. let someone else decide.

Well that presumes synthesis actually solves anything.  Do you really believe it stops galactic conflict long term?  Conflict is driven by lack of resources as much as anything.  No matter how much you understand another, if it becomes a matter of survival of your family over another's...you know what you'll choose.

Synthesis doesn't solve conflicts. It just keeps organics and synthetics on equal footing.

That's how I see it. Conflicts aren't prevented, they just don't result in widespread extinction any more. It's rather logical: if you're on equal footing, you're more likely to consider a peaceful solution. Some conflicts may be prevented by the fact that organics and synthetics are now closer to each other, but the main advantage lies in that equal footing.

[Ieldra]

Helios969 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis actually intigrates reality, or nature with organic needs for technology to survive nature.

A redo... Destroy and Control speak for themselves, but are limited to their effectiveness in that regard. Basically the same old things, different day/millenium. Cosmic problems requires cosmic decisions, or decision on a cosmic scale.

Cannot handle your cosmic decision? Pick refuse.. let someone else decide.

Well that presumes synthesis actually solves anything.  Do you really believe it stops galactic conflict long term?  Conflict is driven by lack of resources as much as anything.  No matter how much you understand another, if it becomes a matter of survival of your family over another's...you know what you'll choose.

Synthesis doesn't solve conflicts. It just keeps organics and synthetics on equal footing.

How does it do that?  Are organics now as intelligent as synthetics?  Do synthetics now struggle with their emotions like organics?

The former: integration of technology allows for rapid self-improvement, so potentially:yes. Synthetics will no longer surpass organics that easily. The latter: EDI's presentation in the epilogue suggests yes, though I don't exactly like that element.

I've detailed the self-improvement issue in the OP - see the revised definitions of organic and synthetic life.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 février 2013 - 03:24 .

[Helios969]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis actually intigrates reality, or nature with organic needs for technology to survive nature.

A redo... Destroy and Control speak for themselves, but are limited to their effectiveness in that regard. Basically the same old things, different day/millenium. Cosmic problems requires cosmic decisions, or decision on a cosmic scale.

Cannot handle your cosmic decision? Pick refuse.. let someone else decide.

Well that presumes synthesis actually solves anything.  Do you really believe it stops galactic conflict long term?  Conflict is driven by lack of resources as much as anything.  No matter how much you understand another, if it becomes a matter of survival of your family over another's...you know what you'll choose.

Synthesis doesn't solve conflicts. It just keeps organics and synthetics on equal footing.

How does it do that?  Are organics now as intelligent as synthetics?  Do synthetics now struggle with their emotions like organics?

The former: integration of technology allows for rapid self-improvement, so potentially:yes. Synthetics will no longer surpass organics that easily. The latter: EDI's presentation in the epilogue suggests yes, though I don't exactly like that element.

I've detailed the self-improvement issue in the OP - see the revised definitions of organic and synthetic life.

Well isn't much of this discussion (either way) headcanon?  And if it's only the former, how do synthetics now understand organics.  I mean I can tell you how I feel, but unless you've experienced something similar you can't really relate.

[Wayning_Star]

Helios969 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis actually intigrates reality, or nature with organic needs for technology to survive nature.

A redo... Destroy and Control speak for themselves, but are limited to their effectiveness in that regard. Basically the same old things, different day/millenium. Cosmic problems requires cosmic decisions, or decision on a cosmic scale.

Cannot handle your cosmic decision? Pick refuse.. let someone else decide.

Well that presumes synthesis actually solves anything.  Do you really believe it stops galactic conflict long term?  Conflict is driven by lack of resources as much as anything.  No matter how much you understand another, if it becomes a matter of survival of your family over another's...you know what you'll choose.

Synthesis doesn't solve conflicts. It just keeps organics and synthetics on equal footing.

How does it do that?  Are organics now as intelligent as synthetics?  Do synthetics now struggle with their emotions like organics?

The former: integration of technology allows for rapid self-improvement, so potentially:yes. Synthetics will no longer surpass organics that easily. The latter: EDI's presentation in the epilogue suggests yes, though I don't exactly like that element.

I've detailed the self-improvement issue in the OP - see the revised definitions of organic and synthetic life.

Well isn't much of this discussion (either way) headcanon?  And if it's only the former, how do synthetics now understand organics.  I mean I can tell you how I feel, but unless you've experienced something similar you can't really relate.

hence the circuitized plant life... naturalization, Exaggerated, but epic..

[Wayning_Star]

The question: Do you want your machines to control you or do you wish to control your machines?

But, when your machines become their own machines, is where is gets to be really hairy..to realize that the universe is our machine,but we have little to no control of/over it.

Why would it be beneficial to become one with the universe? Synthesis is kind of the 'Ultimate Spaceship'.

[Ieldra]

Helios969 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

MegaSovereign wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Synthesis actually intigrates reality, or nature with organic needs for technology to survive nature.

A redo... Destroy and Control speak for themselves, but are limited to their effectiveness in that regard. Basically the same old things, different day/millenium. Cosmic problems requires cosmic decisions, or decision on a cosmic scale.

Cannot handle your cosmic decision? Pick refuse.. let someone else decide.

Well that presumes synthesis actually solves anything.  Do you really believe it stops galactic conflict long term?  Conflict is driven by lack of resources as much as anything.  No matter how much you understand another, if it becomes a matter of survival of your family over another's...you know what you'll choose.

Synthesis doesn't solve conflicts. It just keeps organics and synthetics on equal footing.

How does it do that?  Are organics now as intelligent as synthetics?  Do synthetics now struggle with their emotions like organics?

The former: integration of technology allows for rapid self-improvement, so potentially:yes. Synthetics will no longer surpass organics that easily. The latter: EDI's presentation in the epilogue suggests yes, though I don't exactly like that element.

I've detailed the self-improvement issue in the OP - see the revised definitions of organic and synthetic life.

Well isn't much of this discussion (either way) headcanon?  And if it's only the former, how do synthetics now understand organics.  I mean I can tell you how I feel, but unless you've experienced something similar you can't really relate.

This scenario isn't headcanon. It's based (a) on the singularity hypothesis, which was used in explaining the organic/synthetic conflict in the leaked script and of which the EC version is just a more vague phrasing (see JShepppp's threads I linked in the OP for a *very* detailed explanation), and ( on an interpretation based on the realization that simple "biochemical differences" can't be the cause of the conflict because we spent three games proving that we can get along with those who are different. If there is any sense to make of the organic/synthetic conflict, it can't be based just on "they're different from us, we won't get along." The conflict must be rooted in a part of synthetic and organic nature which is impossible to change without changing their nature as synthetics and organics *and* fundamentally different from the way organics are different from each other, and the only solution I can see is that the conflict is rooted in the mutually exclusive design principles organics and synthetics are based on. This, in turn, supports the idea that the conflict uses the singularity hypothesis nicely: different speeds of advancement will make synthetics dominant, after which organic civilizations will be sidelined and eventually become insignificant. Not accepting their insignificance, they'll go to war with synthetics and will be wiped out.

Once there, the range of solutions Synthesis can implement becomes rather limited unless you posit that it just mindcontrols people to get along. See below for why I reject that notion.

If anyone else comes up with a scenario that makes sense which is different from mine, I'll welcome it. But as I see it, my version fits too well with the published and unpublished material for there to be any vastly different alternative. There are aspects which remain problematic, but those problems are caused by internal inconsistencies, for instance the "final evolution" versus "as the line between organics and synthetics blurs", which will, according to the epilogue, happen in the future "as we advance". Well, either its the final evolution and there is no more change, thus also no more blurring of lines, or the final evolution isn't actually final. In those cases, I admit to selecting the version that fits best thematically. Ascension is a theme of Synthesis, so any finality is ruled out. As I see it, Mac Walters is much too fond of his finalities and inevitabilities. I always take them with a large grain of salt.  

My approach to the ending scenario is also different from others'. I recognize that we were presented with incomplete information. We *need* to add stuff to make it make sense. The only premise I hold to, the only axiom, is "The ending is supposed to make sense, and the high EMS versions of all three ending options are supposed to have generally good outcomes". With that premise, you'll automatically land somewhere near my interpretation. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 février 2013 - 04:39 .

[PainCakesx]

I don't see as the joining of synthetic and organic life as "bringing" people on equal footing. People of the same race and species kill each other all the time. They go to war with one another.

The implication that synthesizing organic and synthetic life will lead to less conflict is no more plausible than believing that segregation will lead to less crime. The overarching theme of ME1-3 was reconciling differences and overcoming them, not eliminating them. That's why on just a thematic level, synthesis is inconsistent.

We secure peace between the Geth and the Quarians, we have both a Geth and AI squadmate, and a human even has a romantic relationship with an AI. And then we're supposed to just take the Catalyst's word for it that all this is meaningless and we must merge with them to prevent our annihilation? It just doesn't add up.

[CosmicGnosis]

Okay...

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. That's the point of their existence. They exist to serve organics, and their superiority allows them to accomplish their tasks more efficiently. Eventually, synthetics develop genuine self-awareness, and may wish to pursue their own personal goals. Organics don't like this, so they attempt to shut them down. The synthetics don't like this, so they fight back.

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. If the synthetics achieve a certain level of development, the organics will most certainly lose.

An organic-synthetic war is not the same as the racial wars of humanity.

Modifié par CosmicGnosis, 06 février 2013 - 05:12 .

[PainCakesx]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Okay...

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. That's the point of their existence. They exist to serve organics, and their superiority allows them to accomplish their tasks in more efficiently. Eventually, synthetics develop genuine self-awareness, and may wish to pursue their own personal goals. Organics don't like this, so they attempt to shut them down. The synthetics don't like this, so they fight back.

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. If the synthetics achieve a certain level of development, the organics will most certainly lose.

An organic-synthetic war is not the same as the racial wars of humanity.

And how does giving AI some organic bits make them less likely to wipe out all life? How does that so radically change their beliefs? If I woke up one day with glowing green skin, I wouldn't suddly decide I love my TV and toaster. Unless there is some mind alteration going on, it doesn't make sense. And if that is the case, then I don't find it ethical to alter the minds of every being in the galaxy.

Modifié par PainCakesx, 06 février 2013 - 05:14 .

[CosmicGnosis]

PainCakesx wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Okay...

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. That's the point of their existence. They exist to serve organics, and their superiority allows them to accomplish their tasks in more efficiently. Eventually, synthetics develop genuine self-awareness, and may wish to pursue their own personal goals. Organics don't like this, so they attempt to shut them down. The synthetics don't like this, so they fight back.

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. If the synthetics achieve a certain level of development, the organics will most certainly lose.

An organic-synthetic war is not the same as the racial wars of humanity.

And how does giving AI some organic bits make them less likely to wipe out all life? How does that so radically change their beliefs? If I woke up one day with glowing green skin, I wouldn't suddly decide I love my TV and toaster. Unless there is some mind alteration going on, it doesn't make sense. And if that is the case, then I don't find it ethical to alter the minds of every being in the galaxy.

According to the EC, synthetics don't gain organic bits. Rather, they gain organic emotions.

However, organics gain synthetic bits. And this is the advantage. Organics can now modify themselves in the same way that synthetics can. Not right away, of course, but it can be achieved. That's why the organic-synthetic line blurs. Taken far enough, the distinction no longer matters. Cyborgs can actually survive a war with synthetics.

But I'm not happy with BioWare's decision to force Synthesis on everything. I think that decision completely ruins Synthesis.

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Okay...

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. That's the point of their existence. They exist to serve organics, and their superiority allows them to accomplish their tasks more efficiently. Eventually, synthetics develop genuine self-awareness, and may wish to pursue their own personal goals. Organics don't like this, so they attempt to shut them down. The synthetics don't like this, so they fight back.

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. If the synthetics achieve a certain level of development, the organics will most certainly lose.

An organic-synthetic war is not the same as the racial wars of humanity.

. Yet synthetics can never come out on top without Reaper help

[Wayning_Star]

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Okay...

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. That's the point of their existence. They exist to serve organics, and their superiority allows them to accomplish their tasks more efficiently. Eventually, synthetics develop genuine self-awareness, and may wish to pursue their own personal goals. Organics don't like this, so they attempt to shut them down. The synthetics don't like this, so they fight back.

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. If the synthetics achieve a certain level of development, the organics will most certainly lose.

An organic-synthetic war is not the same as the racial wars of humanity.

. Yet synthetics can never come out on top without Reaper help

Sapient vs Sentient, learn the difference yet?

[CosmicGnosis]

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Okay...

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. That's the point of their existence. They exist to serve organics, and their superiority allows them to accomplish their tasks more efficiently. Eventually, synthetics develop genuine self-awareness, and may wish to pursue their own personal goals. Organics don't like this, so they attempt to shut them down. The synthetics don't like this, so they fight back.

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. If the synthetics achieve a certain level of development, the organics will most certainly lose.

An organic-synthetic war is not the same as the racial wars of humanity.

. Yet synthetics can never come out on top without Reaper help

And yet, the geth certainly screwed up the quarians during the Morning War. No Reaper help there. So even if organics ultimately win, the losses may be catastrophic. Billions dead.

[PainCakesx]

And so the only and best solution is to force the alteration the genetic makeup of every being in the galaxy?

[Wayning_Star]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Okay...

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. That's the point of their existence. They exist to serve organics, and their superiority allows them to accomplish their tasks in more efficiently. Eventually, synthetics develop genuine self-awareness, and may wish to pursue their own personal goals. Organics don't like this, so they attempt to shut them down. The synthetics don't like this, so they fight back.

Synthetics are smarter and stronger than organics. If the synthetics achieve a certain level of development, the organics will most certainly lose.

An organic-synthetic war is not the same as the racial wars of humanity.

And how does giving AI some organic bits make them less likely to wipe out all life? How does that so radically change their beliefs? If I woke up one day with glowing green skin, I wouldn't suddly decide I love my TV and toaster. Unless there is some mind alteration going on, it doesn't make sense. And if that is the case, then I don't find it ethical to alter the minds of every being in the galaxy.

According to the EC, synthetics don't gain organic bits. Rather, they gain organic emotions.

However, organics gain synthetic bits. And this is the advantage. Organics can now modify themselves in the same way that synthetics can. Not right away, of course, but it can be achieved. That's why the organic-synthetic line blurs. Taken far enough, the distinction no longer matters. Cyborgs can actually survive a war with synthetics.

But I'm not happy with BioWare's decision to force Synthesis on everything. I think that decision completely ruins Synthesis.

that's where I got hung up on nature vs everything/one else. Nature forces synthesis, not bioware...as a matter of consistency. It's a "getting to the root of the problem" thing.

[Wayning_Star]

PainCakesx wrote...

And so the only and best solution is to force permit the alteration the genetic makeup of every being living thing in the galaxy?

strikethrough for a better tomorrow..lol

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 06 février 2013 - 05:34 .

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 Yet synthetics can never come out on top without Reaper help

And yet, the geth certainly screwed up the quarians during the Morning War. No Reaper help there. So even if organics ultimately win, the losses may be catastrophic. Billions dead.

. So?  The end result is the same, organic destruction of synthetics

[PainCakesx]

Evolution has to happen at a natural pace. Forcing it take place within a matter of minutes/hours is a terrible idea.

If that's the future of evolution, then great. Let it happen naturally. One man has no right to force that change, Commander Shepard or not.

[CosmicGnosis]

PainCakesx wrote...

And so the only and best solution is to force the alteration the genetic makeup of every being in the galaxy?

I don't know. I suspect that BioWare did not intend for this interpretation, but it's far too easy to arrive at it.

[Wayning_Star]

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 Yet synthetics can never come out on top without Reaper help

And yet, the geth certainly screwed up the quarians during the Morning War. No Reaper help there. So even if organics ultimately win, the losses may be catastrophic. Billions dead.

. So?  The end result is the same, organic destruction of synthetics

don't worry, thralls'll make plenty more when they wear those out..forever war. Fun stuff right there...

[CosmicGnosis]

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 Yet synthetics can never come out on top without Reaper help

And yet, the geth certainly screwed up the quarians during the Morning War. No Reaper help there. So even if organics ultimately win, the losses may be catastrophic. Billions dead.

. So?  The end result is the same, organic destruction of synthetics

That may not happen every time.

[Wayning_Star]

PainCakesx wrote...

Evolution has to happen at a natural pace. Forcing it take place within a matter of minutes/hours is a terrible idea.

If that's the future of evolution, then great. Let it happen naturally. One man has no right to force that change, Commander Shepard or not.

now I made a post about 'natural' and the BSN boooo'd it down.. didn't like the..connotationals..lol

[Steelcan]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 Yet synthetics can never come out on top without Reaper help

And yet, the geth certainly screwed up the quarians during the Morning War. No Reaper help there. So even if organics ultimately win, the losses may be catastrophic. Billions dead.

. So?  The end result is the same, organic destruction of synthetics

That may not happen every time.

. But it happens this time.