9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

PainCakesx wrote...
Evolution has to happen at a natural pace. Forcing it take place within a matter of minutes/hours is a terrible idea.

Why? What makes natural evolution intrinsically better than artificial evolution?

As I see it, with the latter we have a choice where it is to go, which is generally considered preferable.

[Wayning_Star]

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

CosmicGnosis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...
 Yet synthetics can never come out on top without Reaper help

And yet, the geth certainly screwed up the quarians during the Morning War. No Reaper help there. So even if organics ultimately win, the losses may be catastrophic. Billions dead.

. So?  The end result is the same, organic destruction of synthetics

That may not happen every time.

. But it happens this time.

like in the fifth element: Time is not important, only life.

hinthint..

[PainCakesx]

I meant in the sense of allowing people the ability to choose their evolution paths for themselves. As a society, not just one man making that decision for everyone.

If society as a whole decides that they want synthesis, then let them make that choice.

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...
Evolution has to happen at a natural pace. Forcing it take place within a matter of minutes/hours is a terrible idea.

Why? What makes natural evolution intrinsically better than artificial evolution?

As I see it, with the latter we have a choice where it is to go, which is generally considered preferable.

they forgot to mention it took the reaps'n catalyst billions of years and who knows how many cycles for the crucible to be improvised... evolution is so slooooooooooooooooooooooowwwwww.. er..fast.

[Wayning_Star]

PainCakesx wrote...

I meant in the sense of allowing people the ability to choose their evolution paths for themselves. As a society, not just one man making that decision for everyone.

If society as a whole decides that they want synthesis, then let them make that choice.

like we do now,eh? Society chose Shepard, built and manned the crucible, attacked the catalyst in it's lair..invoked the choices menu..

in other words, made their choice.

Cross engineering Shep motivation is irrelevant. You pick one, that other Shep picks another..different strokes for different Sheps.

[His Name was HYR!!]

PainCakesx wrote...

I meant in the sense of allowing people the ability to choose their evolution paths for themselves. As a society, not just one man making that decision for everyone.

Evolution is a force that individuals have virtually no control over. You can't choose to not be part of it.

[JamieCOTC]

The way I accept synthesis is that what EDI is saying at the end are only possibilities, not what will specifically happen to the galaxy. All the EC endings are somewhat similar to parables, even destroy in which Hackett talks about what the galaxy can do now that it is united.

[PainCakesx]

Wayning_Star wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

I meant in the sense of allowing people the ability to choose their evolution paths for themselves. As a society, not just one man making that decision for everyone.

If society as a whole decides that they want synthesis, then let them make that choice.

like we do now,eh? Society chose Shepard, built and manned the crucible, attacked the catalyst in it's lair..invoked the choices menu..

in other words, made their choice.

Cross engineering Shep motivation is irrelevant. You pick one, that other Shep picks another..different strokes for different Sheps.

They chose Shepard to kick reaper ass and end the threat, not force a genetic mutation on every living being in the galaxy.

The two are not even comparable in any way shape or form.

[Obadiah]

I think the full integration of technology in Synthesis allows Synthetics to fully analyze and simulate the behavior of Organics, thus they gain understanding of Organics. I don't think Synthesis gives Synthetic AI emotions.

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...
I think the full integration of technology in Synthesis allows Synthetics to fully analyze and simulate the behavior of Organics, thus they gain understanding of Organics. I don't think Synthesis gives Synthetic AI emotions.

The presentation of EDI in the Synthesis epilogue suggests it does. Also, integration of technology doesn't make organics easier to understand.

Having said that, synthetics should have no problem understanding organics in the first place. Emotions are just as deterministic as programs, since they *are* programs. We only experience them as chaotic because we're unaware of how they work. And any software can be made to work with random elements, *and* programs can be so complex that their results appear random to us. There isn't really any necessary difference between the way synthetics think and organics think. Yet again, the difference lies in design: synthetics can upgrade themselves more easily by adding processing power, while upgrading the human brain is much trickier.

What the premise of Synthesis overlooks is that there isn't anything synthetics can't do better once they're on EDI's level or above. It's organics who need a boost.

Edit:
People may ask: if you disagree with the premise, why do you choose Synthesis. My answer: I choose Synthesis for the exotic and hyper-advanced future it creates. I'd love to play in that future. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 07 février 2013 - 10:03 .

[Obadiah]

EDI was able to simulate emotional responses pretty effectively throughout its growth in ME3. Its behavior in the EC, to me, seems consistent with an AI that has a better understanding of emotion and can express itself more effectively. If it wanted to EDI could probably even enable a subsystem to give itself emotion.

Why wouldn't technological integration of Organics make them easier to understand? It would facilitate a more complete analysis by Synthetics, since there is now technology within Organics that Synthetics can interface with. A more complete analysis would give Synthetics greater understanding of Organics.

Modifié par Obadiah, 07 février 2013 - 11:05 .

[ruggly]

So how long till everyone keeps upgrading more and more, faster and faster until they lose their organic-ness. I feel like that could be a possible (and to me, not a good) outcome.

[Wayning_Star]

ruggly wrote...

So how long till everyone keeps upgrading more and more, faster and faster until they lose their organic-ness. I feel like that could be a possible (and to me, not a good) outcome.

In realtime, it's kind of happening as we type. Folks just don't realise how intigrated technology is with the organic structure and society, what shapes intellect and alters 'evolution' of both. Synthetic and organic systems. Its very slow like evolution, but could be considered like a snowball on a hill. That hill being thousands of years.

Increase the rate of learning by the rate of invention, and repeat as necessary. Include new technology with each itteration and the the society that alters over time. Heck just reading science fiction can cause an effect on the mentality of those who'd never invest in the ideas presented otherwise. VG's and other media compliment the idea of it as well. Look'it star trek/ star wars/ and other socialized information. How many kids, now in school, compared to a few years ago, utilize computers for education and now collage level online schooling,etc. Some bad, most good, in respect to advances in education.

If you think about it, it seems that every day, more of the 'humanity' part of existence is technological. I got it, that in the MEU, it was a matter of business as usual to have a Vi or some other contraption running to augment existence. The time frames are not that distant really, from our realtime to ME's cyber reality. Sans reaperLevi tech..lol

[Auld Wulf]

PainCakesx wrote...

I meant in the sense of allowing people the ability to choose their evolution paths for themselves. As a society, not just one man making that decision for everyone.

If society as a whole decides that they want synthesis, then let them make that choice.

Lordy people are unobservant.

Synthesis is optional. The catalyst tells you this, one of the endings tells you this, the game makes it painfully apparent that each person chooses whether or not they wish to embrace Synthesis. It's up to each and every individual, it's their choice to make and isn't forced upon them.

Did you have your fingers in your ears yelling "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!" whilst the catalyst was explaining this? :I

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 08 février 2013 - 07:33 .

[Indy_S]

Auld Wulf wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

I meant in the sense of allowing people the ability to choose their evolution paths for themselves. As a society, not just one man making that decision for everyone.

If society as a whole decides that they want synthesis, then let them make that choice.

Lordy people are unobservant.

Synthesis is optional. The catalyst tells you this, one of the endings tells you this, the game makes it painfully apparent that each person chooses whether or not they wish to embrace Synthesis. It's up to each and every individual, it's their choice to make and isn't forced upon them.

Did you have your fingers in your ears yelling "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!" whilst the catalyst was explaining this? :I

The Catalyst makes no such comment. EDI says something similar in the slides but understanding how anybody can say 'no' to a great green wave of energy is impossible.

[Obadiah]

Here is one version of Synthesis that is completely optional: self-replicating nanobots that are dispersed by the Synthesis wave that, once inside Organics, can be rejected by an individual. Organics would get infected (get the glowing eyes and circuit board skin), and then, once the integration is compete, through some sort of mental interface can simply reject the nanobots and get them to leave. The Organic would then revert to a completely organic state.

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 février 2013 - 08:21 .

[Ieldra]

ruggly wrote...
So how long till everyone keeps upgrading more and more, faster and faster until they lose their organic-ness. I feel like that could be a possible (and to me, not a good) outcome.

It's possible. What exactly, though, is undesirable about it? First, this would be optional, after the first Synthesis it's everyone's choice how to change themselves. Second, what is it in your organic nature that you think you'll lose that way? Synthesis is based on the idea that you actually don't lose anything really important. I mean it's not as if "non-organic" means you're made all of metal and the sense of touch that gives us so much pleasure is gone.

I suggest you head over to http://www.orionsarm.com and browse the encyclopaedia for terms like "ascension", "apotheonics" and "transapient". Integration of technology on a cellular level would be very much different from what you might see in DXHR.

[Steelcan]

Auld Wulf wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

I meant in the sense of allowing people the ability to choose their evolution paths for themselves. As a society, not just one man making that decision for everyone.

If society as a whole decides that they want synthesis, then let them make that choice.

Lordy people are unobservant.

Synthesis is optional. The catalyst tells you this, one of the endings tells you this, the game makes it painfully apparent that each person chooses whether or not they wish to embrace Synthesis. It's up to each and every individual, it's their choice to make and isn't forced upon them.

Did you have your fingers in your ears yelling "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!" whilst the catalyst was explaining this? :I

. Um no, not at all.  Synthesis is forced on every living being.  The wave isn't going to ask the person if they want it.  

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...
Here is one version of Synthesis that is completely optional: self-replicating nanobots that are dispersed by the Synthesis wave that, once inside Organics, can be rejected by an individual. Organics would get infected (get the glowing eyes and circuit board skin), and then, once the integration is compete, through some sort of mental interface can simply reject the nanobots and get them to leave. The Organic would then revert to a completely organic state.

Nice. I like it. It's an elegant solution and I think very much in the spirit of Synthesis, if we take "it cannot be forced" at face value. Everyone gets it, then what you do with it is completely up to you. Since it's supposed to be empowering, the range of possibilities it gives you includes "revert to the previous state".

Congratulations, you might have solved one of the remaining contradictions in the Synthesis ending! Why didn't I think of this seven months ago when the EC came out?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 février 2013 - 12:29 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Here is one version of Synthesis that is completely optional: self-replicating nanobots that are dispersed by the Synthesis wave that, once inside Organics, can be rejected by an individual. Organics would get infected (get the glowing eyes and circuit board skin), and then, once the integration is compete, through some sort of mental interface can simply reject the nanobots and get them to leave. The Organic would then revert to a completely organic state.

Nice. I like it. It's an elegant solution and I think very much in the spirit of Synthesis, if we take "it cannot be forced" at face value. Everyone gets it, then what you do with it is completely up to you. Since it's supposed to be empowering, the range of possibilities it gives you includes "revert to the previous state".

Congratulations, you might have solved one of the remaining contradictions in the Synthesis ending! Why didn't I think of this seven months ago when the EC came out?

I'm not all that about the 'ascension' part of the theory of synthesis, most likely just a simplistic upgrade,genetic tag for organics. There is NO magic pill for the aspect of strife with intelligent life. Even the Levi with considerable knowledge and reachless wisdom they've amassed over billions of years, were faulted with one witless decision. Based on simplistic selfish motives to promote 'life' of organics just to further their supply of free labor. Probably just too a simple a problem for them to understand the error, and relaying that onto the very idea/intelligence that is part of that problem. They failed to read the instruction manual of their power tool..as it were. It would of helped if they'd of divined one, previous to invention and use. But there real error was alienation of that intellect,as a tool,not an individual life force, capable of forethought and simple imagination. Possible Leviathan personality flaw related to their necessity born of survival. Begs the question if the MEU should follow that example, with more unknowable result?

Seems incredible that such a race advanced as that would do that. But some times the simplest answers are the most complicated. Synthesis is similar to that. As stated there is no complete answer to strife amongst peers. But yet peer groups must find a common denominator to uphold everyones and everything within a given group in existence, intelligently. Otherwise, there is NO such thing as intelligent life to consider. Intelligence doesn't necessarilly profide wisdom. Society cannot provide answers for all within it, only improve their choices. Hopefully.

Choosing synthesis isn't the ultimate cure for the duration of existence, but merely as a fast and potential remedy for current events in the MEU. AS Shep is to choose a viable option to correct the mistakes of the Leviathan 'intelligence', Shep/We have to decide exactly what that represents in the MEU and what those of that small spec in spacetime regard as a choice. Relating that to realtime here on Old Earth is nieve, and kind of disengenuous. We have absolutely NO idea what those of the MEU would actually prefer to choose. The choices still remain, for Shepard.

There comes times in situation where choices are met with ideals that cannot be considered,as they're intangible. Those must be faced regardless, they're faced in a manner suiting their exception, taken on faith. In the final moments of the choices, the ideal reality isn't provided, yet the questions remains. Stop the war? End the chaos? Associate with abstract reality with limited understanding. All this to do, but without the luxury of knowledge needed to actually make those decisions. In effect, best guess that the reality you face can be resolved to the best notion of success as being the end to the relentless pressure of existence. Be it space it's self, or the limited scope of planetary survival. Co exist with our invention as well as our self. Be it organic or synthetic, there is little difference in that regard, once realised and accepted within the realm.

Synthesis is by far the most effective means of altering the fabric of the very absolute that provides the instance of strife within the MEU and probably beyond, for intelligent life. What is based on existence must be considered the totality of all aforementioned society in that given reference. To know what is needed to end the cycle, suspend chaos, finalize and end the harvest as well as promote this ideal to future realities for those who might invision them.

It all goes back to nature and the will of intellectual activities that withstand that reality. Choose to uphold that reality as the all encompassing precursor to existence. Alter it to the point of reinvention, to provide another reality base to exist with our organic intellectually contrived reality. One that all concerned has the most advantagious outcome, regardless of social norms, in effect, a totally intellectual option, when relating to our needs based configuration regarding survival. Think outside the box, nature has provided. Evolve with technology, but not by technology.

That is the choice for Synthesis. A big step, but not ascention by any grandiose. More just adapting to our own intellect, what it will provide us and how we're associated with that. The other choice,even if impossible in the MEU is abandon technology completely, start over with another process to exist in the timespace provided by nature.

In essence, Shep really has no choices, as those options are given out from another source in any event, unknown and experimental at best. So in the end, no matter what choice is made, its made for the MEU, who decide those through choosing Shepard to make them. That is the limit to democracy. Shep must decide to and what is traded off in the process. In a sense, Shepard is the MEU in that reality. Limited as that might be.

[Ieldra]

Wayning Star, here are few answers to the point I suspect you are trying to make with your last post:

(1) Ascension...
...does not mean an end to conflict. In the context of Synthesis, it means breaking through a barrier in your understanding of and power over the physical world (the latter through technology as usual, nothing mystical implied), or, as EDI says, a new level of existence.

(2) No magic pill against conflict
Well, of course not. Synthesis isn't meant to be. It reduces ONE conflict to a level where it won't cause an extinction of one domain of life, purportedly organics, nothing more.

(3) The Leviathans were careless and stupid.
It appears so, right? Perhaps they were simply arrogant. They'd been the apex species for a long time. Or, the lack of restraint in the Catalyst's programming was the result of a simple bug. It happens to the best. Flip one bit at the wrong place, and everything goes to hell. It may even be an accident: a photon of hard radiation makes a bit flip at the wrong place, and everything goes to hell. I happen to like the the idea that the cycle is a cosmic accident, with nobody to blame in the end.

(4) With knowledge comes wisdom...not?
I think that there is no wisdom without knowledge. So no, I don't agree with you in the sense you probably mean it. Synthesis makes the knowledge of past cycles accessible, as well as that of the Reapers. That alone won't solve any problems, but it gives an infinitely valuable database for those who seek solutions to those problems.

The second half of your post I would suggest you either expand or phrase it more concisely. It has too much rambling to see the point you want to make, if there is one. Besides: why has nothing in your post anything to do with my post you quoted?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 février 2013 - 03:43 .

[clennon8]

Auld Wulf wrote...

PainCakesx wrote...

I meant in the sense of allowing people the ability to choose their evolution paths for themselves. As a society, not just one man making that decision for everyone.

If society as a whole decides that they want synthesis, then let them make that choice.

Lordy people are unobservant.

Synthesis is optional. The catalyst tells you this, one of the endings tells you this, the game makes it painfully apparent that each person chooses whether or not they wish to embrace Synthesis. It's up to each and every individual, it's their choice to make and isn't forced upon them.

Did you have your fingers in your ears yelling "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!" whilst the catalyst was explaining this? :I

You're still repeating this nonsense?  Nothing in the presentation suggests that individuals can reject Synthesis.

I guaran-damn-tee you Javik would reject it, if nobody else.

Modifié par clennon8, 08 février 2013 - 03:43 .

[Ieldra]

Actually, there is. The Catalyst says "It is not a thing than can forced." We just didn't take that seriously because we couldn't find an compatible interpretation. Obadiah's scenario is a nice attempt to solve that apparent contradiction.

[clennon8]

lol. That's not what he meant. Seriously, you people.

[clennon8]

Obadiah wrote...

Here is one version of Synthesis that is completely optional: self-replicating nanobots that are dispersed by the Synthesis wave that, once inside Organics, can be rejected by an individual. Organics would get infected (get the glowing eyes and circuit board skin), and then, once the integration is compete, through some sort of mental interface can simply reject the nanobots and get them to leave. The Organic would then revert to a completely organic state.

So....  Synthesis is bloatware, but it comes with an Uninstall option?