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[jtav]

Simplest explanation is that the Catalyst can't force Synthesis to begin. It has to come through the other races via the Crucible and the agent (Shepard) has to be willing.

[Mouton_Alpha]

jtav wrote...

Simplest explanation is that the Catalyst can't force Synthesis to begin. It has to come through the other races via the Crucible and the agent (Shepard) has to be willing.

Or that he doesn't care either way and considers it inevitable, whether it happens now or in 50 cycles.

[ruggly]

Ieldra2 wrote...
It's possible. What exactly, though, is undesirable about it? First, this would be optional, after the first Synthesis it's everyone's choice how to change themselves. Second, what is it in your organic nature that you think you'll lose that way? Synthesis is based on the idea that you actually don't lose anything really important. I mean it's not as if "non-organic" means you're made all of metal and the sense of touch that gives us so much pleasure is gone.

I suggest you head over to http://www.orionsarm.com and browse the encyclopaedia for terms like "ascension", "apotheonics" and "transapient". Integration of technology on a cellular level would be very much different from what you might see in DXHR.

I know it's optional.  But what seems desirable about having the potential to eventually lose who/what you were? 

I mean it's not as if "non-organic" means you're made all of metal and the sense of touch that gives us so much pleasure is gone.

And you don't think that given the chance, people wouldn't remove all organic parts?  Maybe I'm just overthinking this, but from a lot of what I have read on trans-humanism, it just makes me very wary...

And in the MEU, I still don't like that if you do choose synthesis, it's forced on every being in the galaxy.  (Plus them whacking you over the head with the Space Jesus Cross-Shaped hammer).

edit: good God, can you imagine if you synthesised this?

Modifié par ruggly, 08 février 2013 - 04:41 .

[essarr71]

The idea that its optional really doesnt fly, imo.

Why would a machine, who finds organics weak and unneccesaary, find becoming more organic to be an improvement?

If the solution isnt required to fix the problem, how is it a solution?

[Obadiah]

Well, it could have assumed (correctly from the epilogue) that most Organics would accept and embrace the change. Besides, in Synthesis the Reapers aren't gone, if the change was rejected they can just "Oopsy..." and start another cycle.

[Steelcan]

essarr71 wrote...

The idea that its optional really doesnt fly, imo.

Why would a machine, who finds organics weak and unneccesaary, find becoming more organic to be an improvement?

If the solution isnt required to fix the problem, how is it a solution?

. Because there is no problem?

[Ieldra]

ruggly wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
It's possible. What exactly, though, is undesirable about it? First, this would be optional, after the first Synthesis it's everyone's choice how to change themselves. Second, what is it in your organic nature that you think you'll lose that way? Synthesis is based on the idea that you actually don't lose anything really important. I mean it's not as if "non-organic" means you're made all of metal and the sense of touch that gives us so much pleasure is gone.

I suggest you head over to http://www.orionsarm.com and browse the encyclopaedia for terms like "ascension", "apotheonics" and "transapient". Integration of technology on a cellular level would be very much different from what you might see in DXHR.

I know it's optional.  But what seems desirable about having the potential to eventually lose who/what you were? 

You seem to have a misconception that this "losing your organic nature" is the goal of the process. As I see it, it's more of a side effect. We try to understand more of and gain more power over the physical world we inhabit, and over our shape and our minds. The price of all that may be to grow away from our organic nature. the question is: do you consider this worth the price? Do you consider being "organic" desirable in the first place? Some do, some do not.

I mean it's not as if "non-organic" means you're made all of metal and the sense of touch that gives us so much pleasure is gone.

And you don't think that given the chance, people wouldn't remove all organic parts?  Maybe I'm just overthinking this, but from a lot of what I have read on trans-humanism, it just makes me very wary.

It depends on what you gain for it, right? Of course not everybody would do that. But then, going further than the Synthesis makes you *is* optional. Or do you have an objection to others making that choice for themselves? I would not want a form where I couldn't experience the universe through my senses as intensely as I can now. But who says that any change will do that? I think people still have this misconception of synthetics as "living machines". Granted, ME enforces that perception. But I say synthetics are just intelligent life based on a different design principle. There is nothing that intrinsically prevents synthetics to be as "intensely alive" as organics are. You may count that as desirable or not, too, btw..

And in the MEU, I still don't like that if you do choose synthesis, it's forced on every being in the galaxy.  (Plus them whacking you over the head with the Space Jesus Cross-Shaped hammer).

Well, yes, nobody likes that. It's like the death of the geth in Destroy. Nobody likes that either. And I'm as non-religious as they come, so you can imagine how I think about the religious theme. And that in an ending whose outcome I really, really like. It's like Bioware was dangling a perfect fruit over my head, but when I get and eat it, a part of it proves rotten. Not enough to throw the whole thing away, but enough to develop some resentment towards the giver of this gift.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 février 2013 - 05:06 .

[essarr71]

Obadiah wrote...

Well, it could have assumed (correctly from the epilogue) that most Organics would accept and embrace the change. Besides, in Synthesis the Reapers aren't gone, if the change was rejected they can just "Oopsy..." and start another cycle.

so "its cool if you dont want this, but well just kill you" is your definition of optional. Got it. 

[essarr71]

Steelcan wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

The idea that its optional really doesnt fly, imo.

Why would a machine, who finds organics weak and unneccesaary, find becoming more organic to be an improvement?

If the solution isnt required to fix the problem, how is it a solution?

. Because there is no problem?

funny how it fits then, isnt it?

[clennon8]

Obadiah wrote...

Well, it could have assumed (correctly from the epilogue) that most Organics would accept and embrace the change. Besides, in Synthesis the Reapers aren't gone, if the change was rejected they can just "Oopsy..." and start another cycle.

Oh, goody.  That's comforting.

*

But, really, no.  You folks are just going to have to accept the "violation of consent" thing that goes along with your candy-coated utopian fantasy. There's no wriggling off the hook.  I tell the same thing to the Destroyers who insist that the geth are still alive.

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...
Well, it could have assumed (correctly from the epilogue) that most Organics would accept and embrace the change. Besides, in Synthesis the Reapers aren't gone, if the change was rejected they can just "Oopsy..." and start another cycle.

Uh....Obadiah, that would be a poisoned incentive. No thanks.

I like your original explanation somewhat, but I don't think the idea to have it optional at the outset can be upheld. As I see it, it's rather more plausible that we'll develop a way to reverse the changes later, for those who want it desperately enough.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 février 2013 - 04:59 .

[ruggly]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You seem to have a misconception that this "losing your organic nature" is the goal of the process. As I see it, it's more of a side effect. We try to understand more of and gain more power over the physical world we inhabit, and over our shape and our minds. The price of all that may be to grow away from our organic nature. the question is: do you consider this worth the price? Do you consider being "organic" desirable in the first place? Some do, some do not.

I'm just a simple person, really, so I don't really see the need to completely overcome nature.  Hell, some people don't see the need for technology at all and live fine with nature as it is (well, for the most part).  And that's not to say that zero good will come of this: soldier loses a limb? Build them a new one sort of thing.

It depends on what you gain for it, right? Of course not everybody would do that. But then, going further than the Synthesis makes you *is* optional. Or do you have an objection to others making that choice for themselves? I would not want a form where I couldn't experience the universe through my senses as intensely as I can now. But who says that any change will do that? I think people still have this misconception of synthetics as "living machines". Granted, ME enforces that perception. But I say synthetics are just intelligent life based on a different design principle. There is nothing that intrinsically prevents synthetics to be as "intensely alive" as organics are. You may count that as desirable or not, too, btw..

They can do whatever they want to their bodies, but it just seems real strange to me as to why they would even want to go that far.  It's becomes a problem when they deem it within their power to make that choice for me. "Look at how happy and great we are, you should join us!"  Once again, probably over thinking it, but a lot of this reaks of NWO (call me paranoid if you wish).

Well, yes, nobody likes that. It's like the death of the geth in Control. Nobody likes that either. And I'm as non-religious as they come, so you can imagine how I think about the religious theme. And that in an ending whose outcome I really, really like. It's like Bioware was dangling a perfect fruit over my head, but when I get and eat it, a part of it proves rotten. Not enough to throw the whole thing away, but enough to resent the giver of this gift.

Geth die in control?  I thought it was only in destroy.  And I'm fairly non-religious as well.  Perhaps if they could have toned it down, or even do what you had suggested where Shepard becomes the avatar of synthesis, comes down from the heavens above and offers it to her/his desciples.  Still has over-done religious tones, but it would get rid of my biggest problem with it.

Obadiah wrote...

Well, it could have assumed (correctly
from the epilogue) that most Organics would accept and embrace the
change. Besides, in Synthesis the Reapers aren't gone, if the change was
rejected they can just "Oopsy..." and start another cycle.

well, wouldn't that just make synthesis moot? 


edit: formatting

Modifié par ruggly, 08 février 2013 - 05:06 .

[Ieldra]

Oops, sorry. I meant the geth die in Destroy.

[Obadiah]

*Cough*

On another note - the glowing circuit board skin. Got a couple of ideas for this.

1) This could be some sort of epidermal transport for the nanides/nanobots that does not interfere with the existing Organic circulatory system.

2) This could be analogous to the Quarian envirosuit for the Geth. The nanobots/nanides may construct this as their primary housing. They may exisit here as some kind of synthetic symbiotic organism (or just as a new synthetic an organ) before distribution into an Organic.

[His Name was HYR!!]

Obadiah wrote...

1) This could be some sort of epidermal transport for the nanides/nanobots that does not interfere with the existing Organic circulatory system.

I actually considered this idea when crafting the ole "how-it-works" thread.

Thing is, it's tough to explain how they'd get through something so resilient as human skin.

[ruggly]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

1) This could be some sort of epidermal transport for the nanides/nanobots that does not interfere with the existing Organic circulatory system.

I actually considered this idea when crafting the ole "how-it-works" thread.

Thing is, it's tough to explain how they'd get through something so resilient as human skin.

I'd figure that they would be small enough to get through, judging by what we saw in the epilogue and the size comparison to DNA, they were pretty damn small.

[Obadiah]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Well, it could have assumed (correctly from the epilogue) that most Organics would accept and embrace the change. Besides, in Synthesis the Reapers aren't gone, if the change was rejected they can just "Oopsy..." and start another cycle.

Uh....Obadiah, that would be a poisoned incentive. No thanks.

I like your original explanation somewhat, but I don't think the idea to have it optional at the outset can be upheld. As I see it, it's rather more plausible that we'll develop a way to reverse the changes later, for those who want it desperately enough.

Yeah but it would make for great drama. Imagine a giant Reaper outside the rejectionist's house with the kid projection on the lawn with some heart chocolates and flowers, pleading "Ugh! You guuuuuys! C'mon... pleeeeeeeze.... Your gonna make me ma aaadd."

Modifié par Obadiah, 08 février 2013 - 06:13 .

[ruggly]

Obadiah wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Well, it could have assumed (correctly from the epilogue) that most Organics would accept and embrace the change. Besides, in Synthesis the Reapers aren't gone, if the change was rejected they can just "Oopsy..." and start another cycle.

Uh....Obadiah, that would be a poisoned incentive. No thanks.

I like your original explanation somewhat, but I don't think the idea to have it optional at the outset can be upheld. As I see it, it's rather more plausible that we'll develop a way to reverse the changes later, for those who want it desperately enough.

Yeah but it would make for great drama. Image a giant Reaper outside the rejectionist's house with the kid projection on the lawn with some heart chocolates and flowers, pleading "Ugh! You guuuuuys! C'mon... pleeeeeeeze.... Your gonna make me ma aaadd."

Cue Clint Eastwood with a shotty: "Get off my lawn"

[Obadiah]

To be serious about the optional acceptance again, I don't think the Reapers really think in terms as immediate as the length of organic lives. Even if the all organics of this cycle rejected Synthesis (highly improbable), I'd guess the Reapers would be willing to wait for several generations to see how the cycle continued to develop with the option there.

[Ieldra]

I don't think the Reapers themselves care about these things. It was all the Catalyst's plan, the Reapers were simply its tools. Every Reaper might have an opinion on Synthesis and how it should be implemented in the case there is a choice, but I bet the opinions of the Reapers are as varied as those of humans, more influenced by the dominant culture of the species from which a specific Reaper was made than by the Catalyst's plan.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 février 2013 - 07:45 .

[Eterna]

clennon8 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Well, it could have assumed (correctly from the epilogue) that most Organics would accept and embrace the change. Besides, in Synthesis the Reapers aren't gone, if the change was rejected they can just "Oopsy..." and start another cycle.

Oh, goody.  That's comforting.

*

But, really, no.  You folks are just going to have to accept the "violation of consent" thing that goes along with your candy-coated utopian fantasy. There's no wriggling off the hook.  I tell the same thing to the Destroyers who insist that the geth are still alive.

Who cares? 

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't think the Reapers themselves care about these things. It was all the Catalyst's plan, the Reapers were simply its tools. Every Reaper might have an opinion on Synthesis and how it should be implemented in the case there is a choice, but I bet the opinions of the Reapers are as varied as those of humans, more influenced by the dominant culture of the species from which a specific Reaper was made than by the Catalyst's plan.

. I doubt the "minds" in a reaper have any influence on the reaper itself

[Ieldra]

Steelcan wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

I don't think the Reapers themselves care about these things. It was all the Catalyst's plan, the Reapers were simply its tools. Every Reaper might have an opinion on Synthesis and how it should be implemented in the case there is a choice, but I bet the opinions of the Reapers are as varied as those of humans, more influenced by the dominant culture of the species from which a specific Reaper was made than by the Catalyst's plan.

. I doubt the "minds" in a reaper have any influence on the reaper itself

The uploaded minds, conjoined, constitute the mind of the Reaper. That's what we get from Legion's ultra-rare dialogue in ME2. A Reaper *is* that, it doesn't just carry it. That's why a Reaper can be said to be an "ascended" form of a species, though one of a particularly unpleasant origin. The Catalyst simply subverted the will of the Reapers. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 08 février 2013 - 08:01 .

[Steelcan]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I doubt the "minds" in a reaper have any influence on the reaper itself

The uploaded minds, conjoined, constitute the mind of the Reaper. That's what we get from Legion's ultra-rare dialogue in ME2. A Reaper *is* that, it doesn't just carry it. That's why a Reaper can be said to be an "ascended" form of a species, though one of a particularly unpleasant origin. The Catalyst simply subverted the will of the Reapers. 

. So why do Reapers have one personality?  Harbinger, Sovereign, that Reaper on Rannoch, they all had one personality.  Sovereign said "I am Sovereign" not "We are Sovereign"

Its also possible Legion is wrong about the nature of a reaper's mind.

[Obadiah]

I'd suppose the Reapers and the Catalyst are similar to the way Legion associates with the Geth, or that EVA platform associates with the EDI.

On some level the Reapere and the Catalyst are separate entities, but they can share memories/information and even awareness, and whose hardware can be incorporated to enhance the processing of the two beings to create a whole.