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A different ascension - the Synthesis compendium (now with EC material integrated)


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#6901
CronoDragoon

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BirdsallSa wrote...
In order to finish the game, the player is forced to resolve the central theme "organics vs synthetics" in the quarians v geth arc. The only way the Crucible (a new solution) could be constructed is through completion of this arc and a resolution to the conflict. Through achieving this, the player earned the choice of Synthesis. It could not be forced by the Intelligence, because the conflict would not be fixed in any other way.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can destroy the geth or quarians at Rannoch and still be offered Synthesis, right? So in what way has resolving that war paved the way for Synthesis? It doesn't follow for me. My point is that once the Intelligence learned the possibility of the Crucible, he could presumably calculate the possibility of Synthesis, right? So in what way is waiting for the galaxy to itself build the Crucible and dock it any different than presenting Synthesis as a choice at the start of the Reaper cycle, given that he finds it a preferable solution?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 20 février 2013 - 11:47 .


#6902
Wayning_Star

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CronoDragoon wrote...

BirdsallSa wrote...
In order to finish the game, the player is forced to resolve the central theme "organics vs synthetics" in the quarians v geth arc. The only way the Crucible (a new solution) could be constructed is through completion of this arc and a resolution to the conflict. Through achieving this, the player earned the choice of Synthesis. It could not be forced by the Intelligence, because the conflict would not be fixed in any other way.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can destroy the geth or quarians at Rannoch and still be offered Synthesis, right? So in what way has resolving that war paved the way for Synthesis? It doesn't follow for me. My point is that once the Intelligence learned the possibility of the Crucible, he could presumably calculate the possibility of Synthesis, right? So in what way is waiting for the galaxy to itself build the Crucible and dock it any different than presenting Synthesis as a choice at the start of the Reaper cycle, given that he finds it a preferable solution?


part of that puzzling idea is that the catalyst only considers the crucible as a crude power supply, more of a curiosity. Then after engagement, finds 'new options' all the sudden? Very strange.

#6903
His Name was HYR!!

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Ieldra2 wrote...

LineHolder wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

You might as well ask: why did the writers put that nonsense "essence of a species" into the ME2 SM dialogue, when they also had a technical explanation already written that made perfect sense and was supported by other parts of the lore, to the point that you can actually infer the content of the cut lines? I'd say it was because they wanted to make things appear more incomprehensible than they really are, but the result was just an epic fail.

I am blaming the writers. But I won't let it ruin my story. Thus, I aim to divest the writing of all attempts at intentional obfuscation. If that means my interpretation also divests it of any unintentional stupidity, so much the better.


Then aren't you re-interpreting synthesis/ascension from its meaning in-game to one you personally see plausible or prefer? I don't see anything wrong with that but at that point, you are talking about synthesis as a concept and not as a story event in the game.

If a part of the given exposition is nonsense, it has no in-game meaning. If a part of the given exposition is the result of intentional obfuscation, I see it as my task as the player/viewer/reader to find the sense in the nonsense. It may not be as easy as with the Reaper origin, but I think I have done that.

As for the ascension theme, listen to the last part of the Synthesis epilogue. That's the prospect of an ascension. I'm not pulling this idea out of my ass.

Otherwise, I admit to one premise: All endings are good endings from some reasonable point of view. If you see that as "twisting the meaning", I'm guilty as charged.



Agreed. Unless the details behind story events are concrete (which is largely not the case here) then really, any workable explanation of the events at hand can pass. As of EC, the ending is not totally incomplete, but it still does have some holes here and there that require some literary interpretation on the audience's part.

#6904
Wayning_Star

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all decision is based on the credibility of the catalyst presented facts. If they're not credible, then the stargazer isn't credible and the story ends before it starts.

#6905
His Name was HYR!!

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Wayning_Star wrote...

all decision is based on the credibility of the catalyst presented facts. If they're not credible, then the stargazer isn't credible and the story ends before it starts.


Not to mention what came after the decision and before "Stargazers." There is no question that it's credible! B)

#6906
Auld Wulf

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CronoDragoon wrote...

Whether or not it is evil, its actions are evil. Of course, that means nothing to its directive. I agree that he is not dead set on the Reaper cycle; it was just the best possible solution given what he could accomplish. Of course, this raises the question of why, once he learned of the Crucible, did he not utilize it for Synthesis? He claims that it cannot be forced...but I fail to see the difference between presenting Synthesis to a cycle up front as an alternate to destruction, and presenting it during the cycle as he ends up doing.

How are the actions "evil?" You're falling prey to over-simplified moralistic thinking. From an ethical standpoint, if you're able to save everyone from killing each other, then this is a beneficial action. It has been said that if the cycles hadn't happened, then humanity wouldn't have even existed due to the aggressive tendencies of organic life up until that point. Thus, humanity exists because of the original solution. It was not the best solution, but it wasn't an "evil" solution.

As for why the Catalyst didn't use the Crucible? That one is easy. The Catalyst has wiggle-room to think, but the design of the leviathans was put into place so that their solution could not be tampered with. See, it was the leviathans who got fed up with everyone killing each other, and they wanted to make sure that the Catalyst couldn't be tampered with. What they were too arrogant to see is that the Catalyst could calculcate them as being part of the problem (which it did). Thus, the Catalyst was not in a position to overturn its original position.

If we were to create an Intelligence to manage things for us, then we might be similarly as arrogant. Essentially, the leviathans didn't at all have the wrong idea, they just had the wrong execution. They took the approach of "Enact the solution yourself, we'll tell you if you're doing it wrong." which was a failure. The appraoach should have been "Run all of your solutions by us, we will choose the correct one." And I'm absolutely sure that eventually humanity will make a similar mistake and learn from it, we need to, we tend to be very arrogant as well.

So the Catalyst was able to think and reason, but it was not able to make further decisions. It didn't act on the Crucible because it was not able to according to its programming. Further more, other aspects of the creation the leviathans built, like the Harbinger intelligence, might have been fighting it. This is why I have the theory that there's a Harbinger/Catalyst power struggle involved. Where the Catalyst is doing what little things it can to try to change the solution, but Harbinger is more designed to slavishly follow the original solution.

It's also my opinion that, because of this, the Catalyst was actually the one who created the Crucible. The Crucible was then leaked to each cycle in order for them to try and provide the Catalyst with an override, so that a new choice could be enacted. Until that happened, thanks to the coding decisions of the leviathans, it had no choice but to continue harvesting. Again, this is where my Catalyst/Harbinger power struggle comes into play, because Cerberus was waiting for you on Mars. They were already there trying to destroy the Crucible plans.

How did they discover it just as you did? The Catalyst pretty much put it there, and was leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for them to find it. Subtle enough though so that Harbinger perhaps wouldn't notice.

The problem the Reapers have is that they are slaves to their own programming. This is why I think it's silly and representative of limited thinking to attribute moralistic labels like "good" or "evil" to them. The actions of the Catalyst were actually beneficial, but I still wouldn't call it good. I would say that the Catalyst was simply trying to fulfil the purpose it was created for: To bring peace to the galaxy. That was its directive, morality aside. This is why I trust the Catalyst at the end of the game, it wants the harvesting to end, it wants a better solution.

But it needs outside help for that to happen. I can't blame it for being pissed when some of the Shepards out there just turn around and say "Noap!" to be honest. I mean, here's the Catalyst putting all of this effort into trying to create galactic peace a better way, and Shepard says "Noap!"

I see Destroy as a bit silly, too. But that's the Catalyst realising that statistically perhaps the Reapers are standing in the way of peace. This was, I think, the earliest realisation after the harvesting began. The Intelligence is intelligent, that's the thing. After that, it began to wonder whether perhaps the right organic mind could provide peace. And then finally, via its tools (the Collectors, until Harbinger took them away from it), it came to realise that statistically the best chance for galactic peace was Synthesis.

That's why, conversely, I like the Synthesis ending.

I'll leave it at that. I think that's answered the majority of your questions, and with aplomb, hopefully.

#6907
Wayning_Star

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HYR 2.0 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

all decision is based on the credibility of the catalyst presented facts. If they're not credible, then the stargazer isn't credible and the story ends before it starts.


Not to mention what came after the decision and before "Stargazers." There is no question that it's credible! B)


Yeah, but that stargazer seems kind of shady to me..Posted Image (let's hope he wasn't a thrall..yikes!)

#6908
Auld Wulf

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Solaxe wrote...

clennon8 wrote...

First of all, I challange anyone to prove that the Catalyst "brought" Shepard to the Crucible.


Why TIM or Anderson weren't brought by an "elevator" then? They were standing on it.

Yep, thanks Solaxe. I would have said that if you hadn't.

FIRE BAD.

Sigh. Some people are determined to paint the Catalyst as evil when it really can't be. It's an Intelligence created for the purpose of galactic peace, it has done as much of what one could moralistically call "good" as what one could moralistically call "evil." It has preserved existing races in virtual consensuses, it has allowed new, young races to thrive and exist where otherwise they never could have. Oh, that evil Catalyst, allowing people to live. This is why I think that moralistic terms, especially in such an over-simplified manner, really can't apply to it.

But hey, binary thinking. Us good. Catalyst/Fire bad. Hooray for binary opposition. I'm sorry, but binary opposition makes people really dumb. Most stories are more nuanced than that. Our own history is more nuanced than that. The Catalyst doesn't need to be "evil" or "good." It just is. It's a tool for galactic peace that made a stupid decision, coded by people who made stupid decisions. With Synthesis, I'd say that that ending is as moralistically "good" as you can get, if that's your sort of thing.

So trying to paint the Catalyst as this big evil is silly, it's immature. We're not children any more.

The Catalyst clearly brought Shepard to it. The Catalyst clearly wants to end the cycle of harvesting. The Catalyst clearly does not apply to absolute terms of "good" or "evil."

Seriously, ditch the binary opposition. Those suffering with it are just not being the people they otherwise could be. You'll be better off for it. You'll enjoy stories more. You'd probably enjoy life more for that matter.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 21 février 2013 - 01:13 .


#6909
Wayning_Star

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Auld Wulf wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Whether or not it is evil, its actions are evil. Of course, that means nothing to its directive. I agree that he is not dead set on the Reaper cycle; it was just the best possible solution given what he could accomplish. Of course, this raises the question of why, once he learned of the Crucible, did he not utilize it for Synthesis? He claims that it cannot be forced...but I fail to see the difference between presenting Synthesis to a cycle up front as an alternate to destruction, and presenting it during the cycle as he ends up doing.

How are the actions "evil?" You're falling prey to over-simplified moralistic thinking. From an ethical standpoint, if you're able to save everyone from killing each other, then this is a beneficial action. It has been said that if the cycles hadn't happened, then humanity wouldn't have even existed due to the aggressive tendencies of organic life up until that point. Thus, humanity exists because of the original solution. It was not the best solution, but it wasn't an "evil" solution.

As for why the Catalyst didn't use the Crucible? That one is easy. The Catalyst has wiggle-room to think, but the design of the leviathans was put into place so that their solution could not be tampered with. See, it was the leviathans who got fed up with everyone killing each other, and they wanted to make sure that the Catalyst couldn't be tampered with. What they were too arrogant to see is that the Catalyst could calculcate them as being part of the problem (which it did). Thus, the Catalyst was not in a position to overturn its original position.

If we were to create an Intelligence to manage things for us, then we might be similarly as arrogant. Essentially, the leviathans didn't at all have the wrong idea, they just had the wrong execution. They took the approach of "Enact the solution yourself, we'll tell you if you're doing it wrong." which was a failure. The appraoach should have been "Run all of your solutions by us, we will choose the correct one." And I'm absolutely sure that eventually humanity will make a similar mistake and learn from it, we need to, we tend to be very arrogant as well.

So the Catalyst was able to think and reason, but it was not able to make further decisions. It didn't act on the Crucible because it was not able to according to its programming. Further more, other aspects of the creation the leviathans built, like the Harbinger intelligence, might have been fighting it. This is why I have the theory that there's a Harbinger/Catalyst power struggle involved. Where the Catalyst is doing what little things it can to try to change the solution, but Harbinger is more designed to slavishly follow the original solution.

It's also my opinion that, because of this, the Catalyst was actually the one who created the Crucible. The Crucible was then leaked to each cycle in order for them to try and provide the Catalyst with an override, so that a new choice could be enacted. Until that happened, thanks to the coding decisions of the leviathans, it had no choice but to continue harvesting. Again, this is where my Catalyst/Harbinger power struggle comes into play, because Cerberus was waiting for you on Mars. They were already there trying to destroy the Crucible plans.

How did they discover it just as you did? The Catalyst pretty much put it there, and was leaving a trail of breadcrumbs for them to find it. Subtle enough though so that Harbinger perhaps wouldn't notice.

The problem the Reapers have is that they are slaves to their own programming. This is why I think it's silly and representative of limited thinking to attribute moralistic labels like "good" or "evil" to them. The actions of the Catalyst were actually beneficial, but I still wouldn't call it good. I would say that the Catalyst was simply trying to fulfil the purpose it was created for: To bring peace to the galaxy. That was its directive, morality aside. This is why I trust the Catalyst at the end of the game, it wants the harvesting to end, it wants a better solution.

But it needs outside help for that to happen. I can't blame it for being pissed when some of the Shepards out there just turn around and say "Noap!" to be honest. I mean, here's the Catalyst putting all of this effort into trying to create galactic peace a better way, and Shepard says "Noap!"

I see Destroy as a bit silly, too. But that's the Catalyst realising that statistically perhaps the Reapers are standing in the way of peace. This was, I think, the earliest realisation after the harvesting began. The Intelligence is intelligent, that's the thing. After that, it began to wonder whether perhaps the right organic mind could provide peace. And then finally, via its tools (the Collectors, until Harbinger took them away from it), it came to realise that statistically the best chance for galactic peace was Synthesis.

That's why, conversely, I like the Synthesis ending.

I'll leave it at that. I think that's answered the majority of your questions, and with aplomb, hopefully.


I'm of the opinion that the Catalyst isn't the big boss we've assumed it is. It couldn't of divined the choices menu and we're pretty sure it didn't engineer the crucible. The question remains, who did.

The cat wouldn't worry about our or it's sactimony, it's not out for world peace. But someone is. Hence the choices. Synthesis is about reseting the MEU to accept the differenciation of all concerned, organic vs synthetic is only part of it. Big part, but only cursory. The real problem is chaos and how that is engineered by organics and probably synthetics as well, but nature it's self, through evolution.

Why is Evolution even necessary in life forms anyways?

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 21 février 2013 - 01:20 .


#6910
Auld Wulf

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clennon8 wrote...

Although I think the ever-present brainwashing aspect of the Reapers leans toward an "evil" interpretation.

Okay, let me put it this way.

If you were an operative of a secret agency and you had the choice to kill or brainwash a dictator, what would you do? If you were to brainwash the dictator, the country could be guided towards peace, and without the chaos and death that would occur within his vacuum of power. If you were to kill him, you'd end his life right there, but people would die in the struggle to fill the vacuum of power that would occur with his death.

Would it be "good" or bad" to brainwash him? Would it be "good" or "bad" to kill him? The reapers use brainwashing on earth to try and take it without a struggle. The reapers used the Collectors to use Collector swarms to try and take humanity without killing. Tell me, is the desire to not kill more "good" or more "evil?" The problem is is that the Catalyst has always had the right ideal (galactic peace, preservation, and so on) but poor execution thereof.

Plus, the Reapers are locked into the slavish execution of the first solution, and they are very blunt about how they do this. This is something that the Catalyst appears to have very little control over. If he did, he'd stop them and just initiate another solution himself. This has been spoken of above, and I've explained it.

So there are many factors, here. I just think it's silly to be attaching moralistic factors like these to the story. It's all an attempt to dumb down and simplify it. When instead it could be far, far more interesting and nuanced.

#6911
Wayning_Star

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I hate interesting and nuanced..means I have to read more books..boo Auld Wulf.

#6912
clennon8

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Stop. The Reapers indoctrinate to instill subservience and superstitious awe. You cannot spin that into a good or beneficial thing, no matter how hard you try to distract me with specious analogies.

And I really have no idea how you're coming up with the notion that the Catalyst has little control over the Reapers. Probably the same place you came up with the idea that Synthesis is optional.

Also, I'm not going to go down the road of trying to define "evil." That's another distraction.

#6913
Auld Wulf

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@clennon8

Explain in clear terms how 'temporary brainwashing as an alternative peaceful method, rather than potentially having to harm or kill' isn't beneficial. You have a hate fetish, I get that. But the only person being specious here is you.

And Synthesis being optional? EDI says it in the Synthesis ending if you don't cure the krogan. Just because you're not well read and observant, don't blame me of being the same, it's unfair to assume I hold the same low standards. As for the Catalyst having no control? Simple, the Catalyst is angry if you don't choose another option, which meant that the Catalyst needed Shepard to choose.

Thinking about things helps. Frankly, your hatred is making you stupid. Hatred does that.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 21 février 2013 - 05:26 .


#6914
Indy_S

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Auld Wulf wrote...

@clennon8

Explain in clear terms how 'temporary brainwashing as an alternative peaceful method, rather than potentially having to harm or kill' isn't beneficial. You have a hate fetish, I get that. But the only person being specious here is you.

And Synthesis being optional? EDI says it in the Synthesis ending if you don't cure the krogan. Just because you're not well read and observant, don't blame me of being the same, it's unfair to assume I hold the same low standards. As for the Catalyst having no control? Simple, the Catalyst is angry if you don't choose another option, which meant that the Catalyst needed Shepard to choose.

Thinking about things helps. Frankly, your hatred is making you stupid. Hatred does that.


You value life above free thought. I can understand that. But are you so close-minded you cannot accept that others have different values?

#6915
clennon8

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Auld Wulf wrote...

@clennon8

Explain in clear terms how 'temporary brainwashing as an alternative peaceful method, rather than potentially having to harm or kill' isn't beneficial. You have a hate fetish, I get that. But the only person being specious here is you.

And Synthesis being optional? EDI says it in the Synthesis ending if you don't cure the krogan. Just because you're not well read and observant, don't blame me of being the same, it's unfair to assume I hold the same low standards. As for the Catalyst having no control? Simple, the Catalyst is angry if you don't choose another option, which meant that the Catalyst needed Shepard to choose.

Thinking about things helps. Frankly, your hatred is making you stupid. Hatred does that.

Tell you what.  Get Ieldra to agree with you that Synthesis is optional, and maybe I'll start taking you seriously.  If you can't even convince him of something that he would very much like to be true, you sure as hell ain't going to convince me. 

#6916
Ieldra

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@Auld Wulf:
The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the hypothesis that the Catalyst controls the Reapers:

"I embody the collective intelligence of all Reapers".
"I control the Reapers"
"They are my solution"

Then add the Leviathan backstory, the fact that the Reapers' actions are in accordance with the Catalyst's plan to preserve civlizations in Reaper form, Vendetta's claim that the existence of a "master of the pattern" is inferred. You have not presented any evidence in favor of your alternative hypothesis.

Face it, there is no hidden layer here (I've told the ITists the same). Things are as they appear, and the Catalyst is in control of the Reapers and responsible for their actions. Whether a reasonable viewpoint exists from which their actions can be justified, that's a different matter. I'll get to that soon.

Edit:
No, EDI does not say that Synthesis is optional. She says that some are slow to see the benefits. In no way does that imply that rejection was possible.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 février 2013 - 08:44 .


#6917
Harorrd

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No, you could also change the information they are receiving, i.e. empathy with others on their "platform" as illustrated by the Zhu's Hope survivors.

Edit: even if the Shepard energy did interfere with the way organisms think or process it still would not require a rewrite of genetic information.

#6918
Obadiah

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I can't say how much the Catalyst controls the Reapers. Its an AI with unknown amounts of power.

It constantly uses the term "us" when describing itself and the Reapers.

Its says, "My creators gave them form. I gave them function. They in turn give me purpose."

From these two pieces of information I got a distinct vibe of some sort of a paternalistic relationship between the Catalyst and the Reapers, and that the Catalyst thought of itself and the Reapers as some kind of family.

Modifié par Obadiah, 21 février 2013 - 03:23 .


#6919
Ieldra

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Regarding the "genetic change":

The Synthesis scenario requires that the changes made by it are passed between generations. Given that the "new DNA" is an obvious metaphor, that is not necessarily done by genetic inheritance. In my interpretation, it is done through synthetic symbiotes who operate on the cellular level and pass unchanged from mother to child, like mitochondria. They would change things as required and carry their own information about their structure, which may or may not be analogues to genes.

#6920
darkcrystal01

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"wow" i loved all this reading. to me synthesis is the only obvious choice. with all the vast knowledge of millions of years,civializations,cultures etc etc,and now with a peace never before experianced,total rebuild is in order, and not only that,but, shephard can be re-instated, this time for good! an all new experiance!!

#6921
Ieldra

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darkcrystal01 wrote...
"wow" i loved all this reading. to me synthesis is the only obvious choice. with all the vast knowledge of millions of years,civializations,cultures etc etc,and now with a peace never before experianced,total rebuild is in order, and not only that,but, shephard can be re-instated, this time for good! an all new experiance!!

Thanks :)

Note, though, that I tend to interpret things as "an increasingly connected and interdependent civilization develops a tendency towards non-violent conflict solutions" rather than "universal peace". I think human nature would prevent the latter, and there are reasons why I wouldn't want that nature to be changed. 

Also, where did you get the impression that Shepard comes back from the dead yet again (I take it you mean "reinstantiated" instead of "reinstated")? This does happen in my personal headcanon, but that's really all it is. Did I overlook something?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 février 2013 - 02:02 .


#6922
Ieldra

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One crazy idea that came to me when thinking about the plot of the Citadel DLC:

As everyone knows, Synthesis lacks foreshadowing. What if the Citadel DLC tries to add some foreshadowing of Synthesis? I don't really expect it to, so I won't complain if it doesn't happen, but what kind of foreshadowing would everyone think appropriate? A cycle-old Synthesized person of an unknown species acting as an avatar for a renegade Reaper?

If anything, things like this make good story hooks for fanfics. Any other crazy but lore-friendly ideas?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 février 2013 - 01:20 .


#6923
Obadiah

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We might get lucky and there will be something in there on "Organic energy" so the explanation at least makes more sense. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

#6924
ruggly

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That's the sinister plot right there. They're going to overwhelm Shepard with talks of "organic energy" and the "essence of a species"!

#6925
Wayning_Star

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well, the reaperships contains the 'energy' of billions of harvested minds,even apparently synthetics as well.. Where are the alien computer people when we need them?