9089 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...
We might get lucky and there will be something in there on "Organic energy" so the explanation at least makes more sense. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

I rather hope not. If anything that fits the term is revealed to actually exist in this universe, I'll be pissed off. Severely. I'd rather keep my interpretation that the Catalyst is "talking to a monkey" when it says that, and that whatever Synthesis needs is better described as "information" than "energy", and that nothing in it *is* specifically organic but rather *describes* something partly organic, namely Shepard. 

[Wayning_Star]

really tho, energy is all that is in the universe, how nature installs it is another story, how we conceptualize it is only a curiousity. As that doesn't actaully alter reality at all, we're not advanced enough.

edit: yet

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 28 février 2013 - 01:52 .

[Ieldra]

If that's true, then you can use the term "energy" for anything and it says exactly nothing. Which, actually, is what happens here. There is no explanatory power in the phrase, and it doesn't help that "organic energy" sounds like a term coined by Wilhem Reich.

But back to the Citadel DLC. I would like see some foreshadowing of Synthesis. Not that I think we'll get it, but it would be very nice. Should they actually manage to disassociate it from vitalism I'll be extremely happy.

Gah....every time I think about this my brain twists in knots trying to decipher the thinking process of whoever was responsible for "organic energy".Given that the phrase explains nothing, I take resource in trying to analyze the writer's thinking process. Insanity looms

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 février 2013 - 02:16 .

[ruggly]

I wouldn't hold your breath. The characters are supposed to be big the focus anyways, right? I'd like some more foreshadowing as well, though I would still never choose it. But at least it would fix one problem I have with it.

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

If that's true, then you can use the term "energy" for anything and it says exactly nothing. Which, actually, is what happens here. There is no explanatory power in the phrase, and it doesn't help that "organic energy" sounds like a term coined by Wilhem Reich.

But back to the Citadel DLC. I would like see some foreshadowing of Synthesis. Not that I think we'll get it, but it would be very nice. Should they actually manage to disassociate it from vitalism I'll be extremely happy.

Gah....every time I think about this my brain twists in knots trying to decipher the thinking process of whoever was responsible for "organic energy".Given that the phrase explains nothing, I take resource in trying to analyze the writer's thinking process. Insanity looms

well, energy must take form to be IN universe, why not organic or synthetic or both, if the crucible designers and choices menu authors have any credence?

I doubt the DLC will contain any endings stuff, unfortunately. That would complicate user feedback loops...


lol, insanity has it's perks.. maybe we should call it intellect(ual) energy. That's a 'kind' of a form...

[Wayning_Star]

ruggly wrote...

I wouldn't hold your breath. The characters are supposed to be big the focus anyways, right? I'd like some more foreshadowing as well, though I would still never choose it. But at least it would fix one problem I have with it.

only ONE problem?!? yay,  a convert...


(just kidding)

[Obadiah]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
We might get lucky and there will be something in there on "Organic energy" so the explanation at least makes more sense. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

I rather hope not. If anything that fits the term is revealed to actually exist in this universe, I'll be pissed off. Severely. I'd rather keep my interpretation that the Catalyst is "talking to a monkey" when it says that, and that whatever Synthesis needs is better described as "information" than "energy", and that nothing in it *is* specifically organic but rather *describes* something partly organic, namely Shepard. 

Really? I think it would be interesting if Organics, or any life, generated some heretofore undetected "energy," perhaps even one that united us in "one glorious existence." Throw around the words "quantum" and "M theory" (maybe "noetics" - don't know if that is going anywhere) in there a couple of times, and you could some up with half-decent sci-fi explanation for it.

[Ieldra]

@ruggly:
Matter is condensed energy, but if you transform organic matter into energy anything that could be called "organic" about it is lost. "Organic" in the context used in ME is one of two things: a design principle of a living entity or an attribute of a chemical compound. There is no such thing as "organic energy" since free energy cannot have an attribute that could be named "organic" in any meaningful way. Unless you subscribe to the "science" of people like Wilhelm Reich.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 février 2013 - 02:32 .

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
We might get lucky and there will be something in there on "Organic energy" so the explanation at least makes more sense. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

I rather hope not. If anything that fits the term is revealed to actually exist in this universe, I'll be pissed off. Severely. I'd rather keep my interpretation that the Catalyst is "talking to a monkey" when it says that, and that whatever Synthesis needs is better described as "information" than "energy", and that nothing in it *is* specifically organic but rather *describes* something partly organic, namely Shepard. 

Really? I think it would be interesting if Organics, or any life, generated some heretofore undetected "energy," perhaps even one that united us in "one glorious existence." Throw around the words "quantum" and "M theory" (maybe "noetics" - don't know if that is going anywhere) in there a couple of times, and you could some up with half-decent sci-fi explanation for it.

Peter F Hamilton used something like that in the Night's Dawn trilogy. The difference is that it was revealed in the prologue, not the ending. For the whole story it was a part of the structure of this fictional universe, and you could adapt to the fact that in this universe, some notions of the afterlife were rooted in fact. Retconning a whole universe in the ending, though, that's not a good idea, especially if anything religious comes into it.

To insert such a thing successfully into an existing universe like the ME universe without breaking it, you'd need a genius-level SF writer. Bioware's may be good at drama, but I don't see anyone of that calibre on their team.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 février 2013 - 02:47 .

[Aurora313]

I realise this is completely random and totally offtopic from your current discussion, but I wish to discuss hypotheticals about a post-synthesis individual. I was just playing Legion's loyalty mission in ME2, and I noticed the patterns on the floor when destroying the network hubs and remembered that Shepard was able to partially interface with the Geth Concensus in ME3. And I couldn't help but wonder:

Would a synthesized organic's brain/personality be converted to a kind of digital data?
If so, could a Synthesized organic interface/enter a virtual system such as the one seen in the Geth missions without assistance?

Apologies if this has already been brought up before. But, I would like some imput so I can help foreshadow this in Duet Effect if/when I ever get to that point in writing it.

Modifié par Aurora313, 28 février 2013 - 02:56 .

[Obadiah]

@Ieldra2
I'm not expecting much. As I've said before, I think we players have thought about the endings WAY more than the devs have. Still, fingers crossed for something. There's supposed to be a Citadel archive - let's see what's in there.

Modifié par Obadiah, 28 février 2013 - 02:52 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
We might get lucky and there will be something in there on "Organic energy" so the explanation at least makes more sense. I'm not holding my breath on that one.

I rather hope not. If anything that fits the term is revealed to actually exist in this universe, I'll be pissed off. Severely. I'd rather keep my interpretation that the Catalyst is "talking to a monkey" when it says that, and that whatever Synthesis needs is better described as "information" than "energy", and that nothing in it *is* specifically organic but rather *describes* something partly organic, namely Shepard. 

Really? I think it would be interesting if Organics, or any life, generated some heretofore undetected "energy," perhaps even one that united us in "one glorious existence." Throw around the words "quantum" and "M theory" (maybe "noetics" - don't know if that is going anywhere) in there a couple of times, and you could some up with half-decent sci-fi explanation for it.

Peter F Hamilton used something like that in the Night's Dawn trilogy. The difference is that it was revealed in the prologue, not the ending. For the whole story it was a part of the structure of this fictional universe, and you could adapt to the fact that in this universe, some notions of the afterlife were rooted in fact. Retconning a whole universe in the ending, though, that's not a good idea, especially if anything religious comes into it.

To insert such a thing successfully into an existing universe like the ME universe without breaking it, you'd need a genius-level SF writer. Bioware's may be good at drama, but I don't see anyone of that calibre on their team.

apparently, the sum of apex is the scope of our tool making abilities? Even one powerful enough to 'retcon' the entire universe and then some. Maybe we shouldn't play with matches?

[Wayning_Star]

Obadiah wrote...

@Ieldra2
I'm not expecting much. As I've said before, I think we players have thought about the endings WAY more than the devs have. Still, fingers crossed for something. There's supposed to be a Citadel archive - let's see what's in there.

like on ilos.. just enough to want/need more input..lol


I wonder why keepers would keeper records/archives? Maybe it were the council, but that would mean 'holding out' on data condusive to galactic survival...

[Wayning_Star]

Aurora313 wrote...

I realise this is completely random and totally offtopic from your current discussion, but I wish to discuss hypotheticals about a post-synthesis individual. I was just playing Legion's loyalty mission in ME2, and I noticed the patterns on the floor when destroying the network hubs and remembered that Shepard was able to partially interface with the Geth Concensus in ME3. And I couldn't help but wonder:
Would a synthesized organic's brain/personality be converted to a kind of digital data?
If so, could a Synthesized organic interface/enter a virtual system such as the one seen in the Geth missions without assistance?

Apologies if this has already been brought up before. But, I would like some imput so I can help foreshadow this in Duet Effect if/when I ever get to that point in writing it.

it probably has been brought up before, but not exactly to my memory that way.

It's not apparent what exactly occurs, but many seem to feel or imagine that the interface would be similar, but that requires bias. To balance the MEU, it would seem that neither processes would be a controller. I'm of the opinion that freedom of thought and other self determining factors of evolution would remain, as they'd about have to make it 'all natural' . There would be no rejection from either intellect. No more than there is now with technlogical interfacing.

I'd research those minimally mentioned computer alien being in the MEU, they would have insight on the concept of technologicorganisis..lol

synthesis came at me as an evolution patch, altering progression as it changes the priorities of all concerned parties.

[Ieldra]

Aurora313 wrote...
I realise this is completely random and totally offtopic from your current discussion, but I wish to discuss hypotheticals about a post-synthesis individual. I was just playing Legion's loyalty mission in ME2, and I noticed the patterns on the floor when destroying the network hubs and remembered that Shepard was able to partially interface with the Geth Concensus in ME3. And I couldn't help but wonder:
Would a synthesized organic's brain/personality be converted to a kind of digital data?
If so, could a Synthesized organic interface/enter a virtual system such as the one seen in the Geth missions without assistance?

Recall Legion's Reaper dialogue, where he says that Reapers are "billions of organic minds, uploaded etc...". In this universe, converting someone's personality and mind into digital data is canonically possible. You don't even need to be Synthesized for it.

A Synthesized individual could, given appropriate integrated interface technology, interface with other systems in various ways that would depend wholly on the attributes of the interface and the target system, possibly including VR like in the geth consensus interface. There is not necessarily any need for assistance from outside. This is different from actually entering the system with a digital copy of yourself, since a digitalized personality would become software running on the system while with interfacing only specific input and output is relayed to the mind of the visitor. What a digitalized personality could do in a system depends on the system's security and the hacking ability of the digitalized personality.  

BTW, thanks for posting again - it reminds me that I wanted to read your story.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 février 2013 - 03:07 .

[Wayning_Star]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Aurora313 wrote...
I realise this is completely random and totally offtopic from your current discussion, but I wish to discuss hypotheticals about a post-synthesis individual. I was just playing Legion's loyalty mission in ME2, and I noticed the patterns on the floor when destroying the network hubs and remembered that Shepard was able to partially interface with the Geth Concensus in ME3. And I couldn't help but wonder:
Would a synthesized organic's brain/personality be converted to a kind of digital data?
If so, could a Synthesized organic interface/enter a virtual system such as the one seen in the Geth missions without assistance?

Recall Legion's Reaper dialogue, where he says that Reapers are "billions of organic minds, uploaded etc...". In this universe, converting someone's personality and mind into digital data is canonically possible. You don't even need to be Synthesized for it.

A Synthesized individual could, given appropriate integrated interface technology, interface with other systems in various ways that would depend wholly on the attributes of the interface and the target system, possibly including VR like in the geth consensus interface. There is not necessarily any need for assistance from outside. This is different from actually entering the system with a digital copy of yourself, since a digitalized personality would become software running on the system while with interfacing only specific input and output is relayed to the mind of the visitor. What a digitalized personality could do in a system depends on the system's security and the hacking ability of the digitalized personality.  

BTW, thanks for posting again - it reminds me that I wanted to read your story.

It's hard to imagine just how our existence could be varified with current data. I'd suspect after synthesis it would/could be much easier to not be considered a virus or in the least not mal ware in a purely computerized reality. Shep was pretty ornery in there..

I hated the idea of Legion getting lost in that other 'shuffle' as well. Too many programs, not enough Legion...

[Obadiah]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Obadiah wrote...

@Ieldra2
I'm not expecting much. As I've said before, I think we players have thought about the endings WAY more than the devs have. Still, fingers crossed for something. There's supposed to be a Citadel archive - let's see what's in there.

like on ilos.. just enough to want/need more input..lol


I wonder why keepers would keeper records/archives? Maybe it were the council, but that would mean 'holding out' on data condusive to galactic survival...

Maybe we'll find some massive eon spanning archive that documents failed attempts to make peace between Creators and Created.

[ruggly]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@ruggly:
Matter is condensed energy, but if you transform organic matter into energy anything that could be called "organic" about it is lost. "Organic" in the context used in ME is one of two things: a design principle of a living entity or an attribute of a chemical compound. There is no such thing as "organic energy" since free energy cannot have an attribute that could be named "organic" in any meaningful way. Unless you subscribe to the "science" of people like Wilhelm Reich.

I know, I know.  I was just joking about it Since you seem to hate those two terms so much,  wouldn't that make it pretty sinister if they were to blab on and on about it?

Wayning_Star wrote...
only ONE problem?!? yay,  a convert...
(just kidding)

Or were you..

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...
@Ieldra2
I'm not expecting much. As I've said before, I think we players have thought about the endings WAY more than the devs have. Still, fingers crossed for something. There's supposed to be a Citadel archive - let's see what's in there.

That makes me curious indeed. I hope we get to read some of it contents and it doesn't just exist as a backdrop for the plot.

I wonder if Bioware has realized how much of a golden opportunity this is: they can add lots of lore and backstory without having to create expensive scenes.

[Obadiah]

Yeah, I'm REAL curious.

However, from this article at CBR

Mac Walters...
...
People love the story, they love the characters, and while people had issues with the ending, many people have understood -- sometimes with the help of the Extended Cut -- where we were trying to go with that. But I still feel we delivered on the story that we always intended to and I'm very proud of the progress and all the work the team did to get there.
...

Hard to say with diplo-speak like this if they even know there is a problem, much less an opportunity. Well, we'll find out soon enough.

[JedTed]

I'm guessing the Citadel Archives will have lots of little entries like the Shadow Broker's database. Would be nice see logs of way back when the turains joined the Council and what the asari and salarians first impressions were of them.

Or what the Citadel was like when the asari first discovered it. After that episode on Thessia, i wonder what other secrets the asari had withheld from the rest of the galaxy.

[His Name was HYR!!]

ITS EVOLUTION BAYBAYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!


Sorry, I was just listening to that Pearl Jam song on last.fm.

[Ieldra]

Obadiah wrote...
Yeah, I'm REAL curious.

However, from this article at CBR

Mac Walters...
...
People love the story, they love the characters, and while people had issues with the ending, many people have understood -- sometimes with the help of the Extended Cut -- where we were trying to go with that. But I still feel we delivered on the story that we always intended to and I'm very proud of the progress and all the work the team did to get there.
...

Hard to say with diplo-speak like this if they even know there is a problem, much less an opportunity. Well, we'll find out soon enough.

Well, if the EC was really a clarification of their original vision, then it was definitely needed to understand the story. I still think they retconned the dark age.

On the other hand, I feel immense vindicated for having described several aspects of Synthesis before the EC came out. All the naysayers have been proven wrong. Only they don't like it and keep yelling "It's not real, it's not real". Pathetic.

Anyway, if there's some hint of Synthesis in the Citadel Archives I'll appreciate it. Only 36 hours to go....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 mars 2013 - 01:20 .

[Helios969]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Yeah, I'm REAL curious.

However, from this article at CBR

Mac Walters...
...
People love the story, they love the characters, and while people had issues with the ending, many people have understood -- sometimes with the help of the Extended Cut -- where we were trying to go with that. But I still feel we delivered on the story that we always intended to and I'm very proud of the progress and all the work the team did to get there.
...

Hard to say with diplo-speak like this if they even know there is a problem, much less an opportunity. Well, we'll find out soon enough.

Well, if the EC was really a clarification of their original vision, then it was definitely needed to understand the story. I still think they retconned the dark age.

On the other hand, I feel immense vindicated for having described several aspects of Synthesis before the EC came out. All the naysayers have been proven wrong. Only they don't like it and keep yelling "It's not real, it's not real". Pathetic.

Anyway, if there's some hint of Synthesis in the Citadel Archives I'll appreciate it. Only 36 hours to go....

Should I scream "it's not plausible, not plausible"   Seriously though...it's real cause the writer(s) say it's real...and like it or not it is one of the final choices.

[Jassu1979]

People love the story, they love the characters, and while people had issues with the ending, many people have understood -- sometimes with the help of the Extended Cut -- where we were trying to go with that. But I still feel we delivered on the story that we always intended to and I'm very proud of the progress and all the work the team did to get there.

You know what REALLY annoys me about this comment and others like it?
They are still insinuating, however subtly, that people who criticized the ending and campaigned for a re-write did not UNDERSTAND what Walters and Hudson were aiming for.
The thing is, though: I understand perfectly what they were aiming for. I always did. Lack of understanding was NOT what prompted me to criticize the ending to begin with. Nor do I believe that that kind of ignorance and lack of insight is what drove most of the protests.

Walters et.al. refuse to acknowledge that. Perhaps deliberately, as they need that screen story in order to establish the EC as their generous "answer" to the fans' demands. Perhaps unwittingly, as they are truly out of the loop. But the fact that they have consistently refused to talk to the fans, and that *every* public statement they made sounds just like the excerpt quoted above suggests to me that it is a deliberate PR-strategy.
And I resent that. Deeply.